John Hagee off the deep end

[BelindaP]

Methinks somebody needs to read the book and then let us know before we speculate any further.

 

[ContentInHim]

Here is a question related to the discussion:

1) Fruits of John Hagee?
2) If he is a man of God, even in error, do we have the right to criticize him?
3) If he is a false prophet, how do we tell?

Lisa

I'm a result of his teaching for the most part. After I was saved, though I was in a great church, I couldn't get enough. So church on Sunday and Wednesday, Charles Stanley and John Hagee during the week.

 

[ContentInHim]

Seems pretty theologically sound:
Theologically, Hagee believes in the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", the "absolute authority of the scripture", miraculous healing, anointing with oil, baptism by immersion, the importance of evangelism, and the "worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands".




This concerns me, tho...

Hagee has said that Iran is a threat to Western civilization and does not believe that the "Islamofascist" mentality will ever respond favorably to diplomacy. He supports an American-Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran to take out its nuclear capability and supports the Neo-Conservative movement in the United States.

I believe that also. I believe that Islamofacism is bringing on the Tribulation. Not that I'm not in favor of our savior returning asap, mind you!

Maranatha!

 

[Criada]

Not going to get into a debate on escatology - I can't even spell it, never mind understand it!
My view is - don't care about the details, just looking forward to the end!

God bless you, sister.

 

[ContentInHim]

I kinda figured that conservatives would be the one group of people who would really have some biblical understanding, and really be concerned about deception like this creeping in to the conservative church...

The amazing thing to me is that people are rushing to defend Hagee, talking about how we don't know fully what he means, he might just be shocking people into buying the book. Part and parcel of that is they are already leaning towards defending possible positions that Hagee might be promoting.
Here is a good lesson in deception. What Hagee said was so outragousely blatant that no real Christian would be deceived by it. But people like Hagee, as is often the case with big personalities like him, there is a little bit of hero worship, things like that.. so they look for ways to defend him, maybe he didn't mean... blah blah blah.

Never realizing, that the very ideas they are proposing in his defence, the things they are putting forward, as things he might possibly really mean, are biblically incorrect and even those things are serious errors.

Because they were busy trying to reason that he didn't mean the really really bad thing, they themselves are already beginning to accept the slightly less bad thing that he might mean.


why couldn't people say "I'm going to reserve judgement on this till I get more information, but if he really is teaching any of these things, its wrong and a serious error."

a very few people in here said that. A lot came across very strongly that they would not believe anything against him, even when he speaks it with his own mouth and are already beginning to accept in their own minds what he is teaching.

I don't believe in replacement theology. I believe the Jews are God's chosen people still and that they have a special place in God's heart and that they will be grafted back in to Jesus Christ when they recognize him at the end.
I believe that because the bible teaches it. I also believe that Jesus is the promised heir of David, and that he openly proclaimed himself as such to the people of Israel, why? because it is plainly stated in the bible.
I also believe the Jews rejected him. Why? because it is plainly stated in the bible. I also believe that God put a viel over the jewish people and that he is using their disobedience and their rejection of Jesus as a means, or an excuse to save the gentiles. At the same time he is using the gentiles to make the Jews jealous and stir them up to desire Him again. Why? because thats what the bible says.

I've been to Israel, I've worked with a mission organization devoted to building fellowship between Jews and Christians. I have friends who spent years as missionaries in Israel, and I have friends and acquaintences who live there now.

I have ALWAYS politically supported Israel and the US alliance with Israel.

None of that justifies error that begins to undermine Jesus' true identity as the son of David and the necessity that EVERYONE, including Jews must acknowledge him as Lord.
anything that even begins to tread that ground is false and anti-christ.

I have no doubt that Hagee affirms the divinity of Christ, none at all. But have you ever stopped to think what the ramifications of his little errors will be?
Teaching that Jews are saved by grace through Jesus, without having to actually acknoledge Jesus is likely to send a lot of Jews to hell.
What is the first natural result of teaching that Jesus was not the promised Jewish Messiah? in the sense of the promised king, the heir of David... the first natural result is that you must begin to look.. for another person to be that promised heir of David, that annointed King.
So what happens when a man stands up and is recognized by Rabbi's as the annointed King? This is exactly the kind of teaching that will deceive people into following the Antichrist when he first arises.

But the "fact" that Hagee teaches error is far from established. In fact, I would believe that he thinks exactly as you do. Jews will be saved by their belief in Jesus. The Tribulation is for them to come to salvation. The scriptures confirm that the remnant of Jews will be saved by calling on Jesus in their trial. See Is 45:17; Jer 30:7; Joel 2:32; Rom 9:27; Rom 10:12-13; Rom 11:25-26.

 

[ContentInHim]

Not going to get into a debate on escatology - I can't even spell it, never mind understand it!
My view is - don't care about the details, just looking forward to the end!

God bless you, sister.

LOL, Amen!

 

[SharonL]

This has always been a question I have had and when I ask it - I never get a clear answer.

When the Bible says All Israel will be saved - does this go back to every Jew or just the Jews alive in Israel when JEsus returns?

 

[ContentInHim]

This has always been a question I have had and when I ask it - I never get a clear answer.

When the Bible says All Israel will be saved - does this go back to every Jew or just the Jews alive in Israel when JEsus returns?

Oh great - there's a wrinkle that I had not thought of. I haven't a clue.

 

[Lisa0315]

Interesting conversation...

When the Virginia Tech massacre occurred, I wondered about the Jewish professor who gave his life for his students. I wondered if in that single act, he had so fulfilled the law that he was saved.

Do we have Scripture that says the the Old Covanant passed away or just that it was finally fulfilled by Jesus? Is the Old Covanant still plausible?

Will Jews be judged on their knowledge and on their keeping of the law?

I don't know...

Lisa

 

[Criada]

I don't think the Old Covenant passed away
BUT - if Jews are judged on their keeping of the Law, they have a problem..
Because if it were possible to be good enough for God by keeping the Law, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.
It's not possible to keep, because none of us are perfect.
Only Jesus has ever lived perfectly - so only He could fulfill the Law.

 

[Lisa0315]

I don't think the Old Covenant passed away
BUT - if Jews are judged on their keeping of the Law, they have a problem..
Because if it were possible to be good enough for God by keeping the Law, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.
It's not possible to keep, because none of us are perfect.
Only Jesus has ever lived perfectly - so only He could fulfill the Law.

Yes, but if the old Covanant is indeed in effect, and according to their knowledge, they keep the law as well as they can, then, they will be judged on how well they kept the law.

They would perhaps go to Paradise or Hell, and await the final judgement just as Abraham and so forth did.

I am NOT saying that I believe all of this. I honestly do not know. However, I am just posing the questions.

There may be something to that all of Israel being saved. Perhaps in Paradise, they are finally taught or it is revealed that Jesus truly is their Messiah. ???

I have always believed that Abraham and so forth were saved based on their faith in the coming Messiah, not by keeping the law. If that is true, and that is truly the heart of the Old Covanant, then...you tell me???

Lisa

 

[rrguy]

I caught him on tv a few Sundays ago. I kinda liked what he had to say about gossip & talking bad about others. So i read up more about him & his latest book. It is just info I read, but allot pointed towards him being extreme on certain views. The more I read the more I felt concerned? He definitely supports Israel & claims their innocence. He points out how they have been treated wrong throughout history. From what I read he wants war with Iran & has been trying to convince his connections in goverment? There is other stuff on how his predictions in the past like all these things that were suppose to go wrong with the coming of the year 2000? And when it didn't it was like nothing happened? etc.. There was also topics on there revenue & how much was from selling books etc.. yet still remaining tax exempt... Allot of the info mentioned was claimed to be public info.

 

[Cromwe11]

I don't think the Old Covenant passed away
BUT - if Jews are judged on their keeping of the Law, they have a problem..
Because if it were possible to be good enough for God by keeping the Law, then Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.
It's not possible to keep, because none of us are perfect.
Only Jesus has ever lived perfectly - so only He could fulfill the Law.

actually Hebrews chapter 8 makes it pretty clear that the old covenant is passed away.

 

[Lisa0315]

actually Hebrews chapter 8 makes it pretty clear that the old covenant is passed away.

Can you provide the Scripture and give us what it means, please? I would be very interested in hearing your comments on this.

Lisa

 

[Cromwe11]

Well, hebrews chapter 8 begins by giving an image of Jesus as the high priest of heaven, and it contrasts the heavenly tabernacle to the earthly tabernacle, giving the indication that the tabernacle of Moses was but a shadow of the real thing which is heavenly. This sets up a comparison between the covnant of Moses, and the covenant of Jesus

Start in 8:5
"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

This verse begins talking about priests, saying that if Jesus were on earth he would not be a true high priest, but because he is in heaven before God, he is a true High Priest. Carrying on the theme that the earthly covenant was but a shadow of the true thing.

8:6
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

the He, here is Jesus, his covenant is better than that of Moses, and it is based on better promises than that of Moses.

8:7
"For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

The covenant of Moses was not perfect, and this can also be seen in Jesus' teachings about what the Covenant of Moses allowed, that was not really what God wanted (like divorce). Paul says in Galatians that the covenant of Moses was like Ishmael, it was not what God had really intended, or promised. It was given out of necessity because of the hardness of man's heart.

8:8
"For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

God found fault with the Jews and the covenant from mt. sinai was never what he fully intended. This is actually spoken about a great deal, a very surprising amount in the old testament prophets. All the places where they talk about the fact that God did not take pleasure in animal sacrifice and so on. This verse also references the fact that God, in the old testament for told that he would make a new covenant which would be different than the covenant he made with Moses.

8:9
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord."

this verse continues the refernce to the old testament prophecy that God would make a covenant with Israel which would not be like the covenant of Moses.

8:10
"For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

continuing refernce to the old testament prophecy about the new covenant. This describes the nature of the covenant that God really desired. I'm sure you guys can see the reflection of our relationship with God in it.

8:11-12
"And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

This whole section Paul has been quoting from the old testament and saying that this old prophecy of a new covenant is fulfilled by the covenant of Jesus Christ.

The last verse of the chapter caps it off

8:13
"In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away."

The covenant of Moses was never meant to be permanent. It was never meant to be defining of God's relationship with man, or the other way around either. It did not truly please God. It was given for a time because it was needed. When God's time was right, Jesus came and he began the new covenant that God had fortold, the one that God had always desired. When this occured, it made the covenant of Moses obsolete. What good is the stop gap when the fell completed product is here. For that reason the covenant of Moses was vanishing even then.

Moses himself prophesied that another prophet, like Moses himself would arise much later and that Israel would do all that he said, as they had obeyed Moses. This prophet was Jesus. Jesus is called the new Adam, but in a sense, he could also be called the new Moses, because he gave a new covenant and just as he supercedes Moses, so does his covenant supercede the covenant of Moses.

 

[ContentInHim]

The old covenant required that the law be followed to a T - not the pharisaical additions to the law but the the Torah. And as always, people were saved by faith - like Abraham. King David was saved by faith, since he failed dismally at keeping the Torah (murder, adultery, not raising children properly, etc.) The law was external, if you will, to the people. Do this, do that, love God.

Now we are under the New Covenant and the law is written on our hearts and the Holy Spirit is with us to teach us and guide us. We follow the law because we love God and can't imagine not following it.

We are so much more fortunate that those who were born under the old covenant. They had to save themselves - we are saved by the blood of our Messiah!

All that to say, I don't know if God has a separate plan for law-keeping Jews. My thought is that if they have faith in God, not in the law, they come to belief in Jesus. I do know that if God has a separate plan for the unbelieving Jews, that's OK by me. He's God and he makes the rulz!