John Hagee off the deep end

[No Swansong]

I have nothing personal against John Hagee and I have never heard him preach that Jews do not need to accept Jesus as their messiah.

The Wiki says he has denounced Replacement Theology. If this is true then it would also be true that he does not accept that the Jew must accept Christ.

That said however Wikipedia is not really a strong resource. There is good reason that most in the Academic world do not accept it.

Until I read or hear differently from Hagee I will still stand skeptical and give the evangelist the benefit of the doubt.

Actually I should someone change this comment. I do not agree with all of Hagee's Theology considering that I am Reformed and he is Arminian, but with that said I still feel as if we need to give him the benefit of the doubt until something more substantial is presented as evidence.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I agree with that and I think our sister does also, but no one has really presented any direct evidence (except for a poorly dubbed commercial that I have never seen broadcast except of youtube of all places) that he is teaching error.

I've been finding a bevy of stuff on the internet, but most of it I've had to discount after considering the source. Even his own website somewhat contradicts itself in a couple of spots.

Someone posted a better match of the video - he is indeed saying what the words are, even though they don't match up with his mouth. It's just a matter of the audio not being on track with the visual.

He's just not really clear cut on how he feels about the issue of Jews accepting Jesus, that's what I've come to find in his quotes. I'm still checking on stuff. But to clarify, I have no wish to bring this man down or talk ill of him, I only wish to find out what exactly he believes, and if it's that Jews needn't accept Jesus to be saved, then *I've* got a problem with the guy.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Actually I should someone change this comment. I do not agree with all of Hagee's Theology considering that I am Reformed and he is Arminian, but with that said I still feel as if we need to give him the benefit of the doubt until something more substantial is presented as evidence.

I don't agree with all of his theology either, but the man is still a Christian so we can give him the benefit of the doubt while disagreeing with some of what he says.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Latreia]

The size of his ministry means absolutely nothing if he is not teaching the truth.

This is not everyone's opinion.

And I thought the CF policy was
to be all-inclusive and not question
those who say they are Christians.

It is about time that Christians do
start speaking up for those who have
devoted their lives to their faith and
worked harder than anyone on CF
to be adamantly positve about the
strength of Christianity in the world.

Bigotry of any kind is supposed to be
incorrect today and that includes faiths
and religions.

And I refuse to denounce the majority
of Christian ministries for their efforts
on behalf of Jesus Christ.

 

[Latreia]

As for the issue of whether Jews need
to accept Jesus to be saved, I intend to leave
that up to God.

Christians are fine to believe their own
minds and hearts, but they can only
express their beliefs, declaring they
know the Mind of the Lord God is not
faith, I think it is a little bit of overzealous pride.

 

[No Swansong]

As for the issue of whether Jews need
to accept Jesus to be saved, I intend to leave
that up to God.

Christians are fine to believe their own
minds and hearts, but they can only
express their beliefs, declaring they
know the Mind of the Lord God is not
faith, I think it is a little bit of overzealous pride.

Actually my friend my opinion is formed solely from Scripture. Now it is entirely possible I have misunderstood Scripture. That would not be a first nor a last I am sure but I don't think pride has come into the equation. At least not for all of us who believe we know the mind of God on this issue.

 

[Latreia]

Actually my friend my opinion is formed solely from Scripture. Now it is entirely possible I have misunderstood Scripture. That would not be a first nor a last I am sure but I don't think pride has come into the equation. At least not for all of us who believe we know the mind of God on this issue.

Then John Hagee has as much right to
what he knows is the mind of God.

What is fair is fair, perhaps?

 

[No Swansong]

Then John Hagee has as much right to
what he knows is the mind of God.

What is fair is fair, perhaps?

I don't disagree that John Hagee has as much right. If my post implies such then I apologize.

 

[Latreia]

Actually my friend my opinion is formed solely from Scripture. Now it is entirely possible I have misunderstood Scripture. That would not be a first nor a last I am sure but I don't think pride has come into the equation. At least not for all of us who believe we know the mind of God on this issue.

Then John Hagee has as much right to
what he knows is the mind of God.

What is fair is fair, perhaps?

I don't disagree that John Hagee has as much right. If my post implies such then I apologize.

I apologize, too. It is not your post per se,
but to the OP and continued critcism of
a respected man who devotes his life
to Christian ministry.

If that critcism is based only on the fact
that one "knows the mind of God" then
it is only fair to extend to John Hagee
that very same condition.

It is just as simple to believe in his faith
that guides him, rather than say that
we should rebuke him for his sincerity.

It is to the thread I address myself, not
with any reference to my regard for you,
which is very high, indeed

 

[Cromwe11]

I don't agree with all of his theology either, but the man is still a Christian so we can give him the benefit of the doubt while disagreeing with some of what he says.

That's my opinion, anyway.

honestly, the response in this thread really concerns me.. and amazes me.

 

[No Swansong]

honestly, the response in this thread really concerns me.. and amazes me.

Why/

 

[Nadiine]

Crom, Hagee has denied some comments from what I'm reading here, and none of us have read the book that his commercial refers to.
As to his commercial statements, they make sense in certain context's if that's what Hagee is referring to. I'd like to hear more before I hang him high if that's ok?

You're bringing up a man that has some 30 collective years of staunch biblical teachings; he may not be everybody's dreamboat, but I'm not so fast to start attacking a long history such as his with alot of fruit to show for it.

 

[Cromwe11]

Why/

I kinda figured that conservatives would be the one group of people who would really have some biblical understanding, and really be concerned about deception like this creeping in to the conservative church...

The amazing thing to me is that people are rushing to defend Hagee, talking about how we don't know fully what he means, he might just be shocking people into buying the book. Part and parcel of that is they are already leaning towards defending possible positions that Hagee might be promoting.
Here is a good lesson in deception. What Hagee said was so outragousely blatant that no real Christian would be deceived by it. But people like Hagee, as is often the case with big personalities like him, there is a little bit of hero worship, things like that.. so they look for ways to defend him, maybe he didn't mean... blah blah blah.

Never realizing, that the very ideas they are proposing in his defence, the things they are putting forward, as things he might possibly really mean, are biblically incorrect and even those things are serious errors.

Because they were busy trying to reason that he didn't mean the really really bad thing, they themselves are already beginning to accept the slightly less bad thing that he might mean.


why couldn't people say "I'm going to reserve judgement on this till I get more information, but if he really is teaching any of these things, its wrong and a serious error."

a very few people in here said that. A lot came across very strongly that they would not believe anything against him, even when he speaks it with his own mouth and are already beginning to accept in their own minds what he is teaching.

I don't believe in replacement theology. I believe the Jews are God's chosen people still and that they have a special place in God's heart and that they will be grafted back in to Jesus Christ when they recognize him at the end.
I believe that because the bible teaches it. I also believe that Jesus is the promised heir of David, and that he openly proclaimed himself as such to the people of Israel, why? because it is plainly stated in the bible.
I also believe the Jews rejected him. Why? because it is plainly stated in the bible. I also believe that God put a viel over the jewish people and that he is using their disobedience and their rejection of Jesus as a means, or an excuse to save the gentiles. At the same time he is using the gentiles to make the Jews jealous and stir them up to desire Him again. Why? because thats what the bible says.

I've been to Israel, I've worked with a mission organization devoted to building fellowship between Jews and Christians. I have friends who spent years as missionaries in Israel, and I have friends and acquaintences who live there now.

I have ALWAYS politically supported Israel and the US alliance with Israel.

None of that justifies error that begins to undermine Jesus' true identity as the son of David and the necessity that EVERYONE, including Jews must acknowledge him as Lord.
anything that even begins to tread that ground is false and anti-christ.

I have no doubt that Hagee affirms the divinity of Christ, none at all. But have you ever stopped to think what the ramifications of his little errors will be?
Teaching that Jews are saved by grace through Jesus, without having to actually acknoledge Jesus is likely to send a lot of Jews to hell.
What is the first natural result of teaching that Jesus was not the promised Jewish Messiah? in the sense of the promised king, the heir of David... the first natural result is that you must begin to look.. for another person to be that promised heir of David, that annointed King.
So what happens when a man stands up and is recognized by Rabbi's as the annointed King? This is exactly the kind of teaching that will deceive people into following the Antichrist when he first arises.

 

[No Swansong]

I kinda figured that conservatives would be the one group of people who would really have some biblical understanding, and really be concerned about deception like this creeping in to the conservative church...

The amazing thing to me is that people are rushing to defend Hagee, talking about how we don't know fully what he means, he might just be shocking people into buying the book. Part and parcel of that is they are already leaning towards defending possible positions that Hagee might be promoting.
Here is a good lesson in deception. What Hagee said was so outragousely blatant that no real Christian would be deceived by it. But people like Hagee, as is often the case with big personalities like him, there is a little bit of hero worship, things like that.. so they look for ways to defend him, maybe he didn't mean... blah blah blah.

Never realizing, that the very ideas they are proposing in his defence, the things they are putting forward, as things he might possibly really mean, are biblically incorrect and even those things are serious errors.

Because they were busy trying to reason that he didn't mean the really really bad thing, they themselves are already beginning to accept the slightly less bad thing that he might mean.


why couldn't people say "I'm going to reserve judgement on this till I get more information, but if he really is teaching any of these things, its wrong and a serious error."

a very few people in here said that. A lot came across very strongly that they would not believe anything against him, even when he speaks it with his own mouth and are already beginning to accept in their own minds what he is teaching.

I don't believe in replacement theology. I believe the Jews are God's chosen people still and that they have a special place in God's heart and that they will be grafted back in to Jesus Christ when they recognize him at the end.
I believe that because the bible teaches it. I also believe that Jesus is the promised heir of David, and that he openly proclaimed himself as such to the people of Israel, why? because it is plainly stated in the bible.
I also believe the Jews rejected him. Why? because it is plainly stated in the bible. I also believe that God put a viel over the jewish people and that he is using their disobedience and their rejection of Jesus as a means, or an excuse to save the gentiles. At the same time he is using the gentiles to make the Jews jealous and stir them up to desire Him again. Why? because thats what the bible says.

I've been to Israel, I've worked with a mission organization devoted to building fellowship between Jews and Christians. I have friends who spent years as missionaries in Israel, and I have friends and acquaintences who live there now.

I have ALWAYS politically supported Israel and the US alliance with Israel.

None of that justifies error that begins to undermine Jesus' true identity as the son of David and the necessity that EVERYONE, including Jews must acknowledge him as Lord.
anything that even begins to tread that ground is false and anti-christ.

I have no doubt that Hagee affirms the divinity of Christ, none at all. But have you ever stopped to think what the ramifications of his little errors will be?
Teaching that Jews are saved by grace through Jesus, without having to actually acknoledge Jesus is likely to send a lot of Jews to hell.
What is the first natural result of teaching that Jesus was not the promised Jewish Messiah? in the sense of the promised king, the heir of David... the first natural result is that you must begin to look.. for another person to be that promised heir of David, that annointed King.
So what happens when a man stands up and is recognized by Rabbi's as the annointed King? This is exactly the kind of teaching that will deceive people into following the Antichrist when he first arises.

My whole point my friend is that I do not know that he said what he has been accused of saying and even if that were the case I would want an explanation from him by what he means.

You will find few people here more concerned with heresy than I, but I am willing to wait and get answers to what may be a misunderstanding.

The reason I asked you why is because I misunderstood what you were objecting to.

 

[Nadiine]

My whole point my friend is that I do not know that he said what he has been accused of saying and even if that were the case I would want an explanation from him by what he means.

You will find few people here more concerned with heresy than I, but I am willing to wait and get answers to what may be a misunderstanding.

exactly

 

[Albion]

The only democracy in the Middle East, perhaps, but "our greatest ally against Christianity's most terrible enemy?"

Not by any stretch of the imagination! Israel is dedicated soley to defending Israel. What she does for us is kill our servicemen and sell our military secrets behind our backs. We may be her ally, but she's not much of an ally to us, let alone "the greatest."

 

[SharonL]

I listen to JOhn Hagee every week - he is a great teacher and an Israel supporter.

Here is a quote from his book Jerusalem Countdown - it does not sound anythig like what he is being accused of.

On page 192 - the Chapter on All Israel shall be saved - it is talking about a nation and not individuals.

#6 - the doctrine of divine election applies to nations and not to individuals. A remnant of the Jewish people has been divinely elected, and when the Gentile era ends, "all Israel will be saved." "All Israel" is to be identified as all believing Gentiles and Jews as evidenced by the natural branches (the Jewish people) of the olive tree and the unnatural branches (the believing Gentiles) Rom. 11:17 - 21

 

[Cromwe11]

I listen to JOhn Hagee every week - he is a great teacher and an Israel supporter.

Here is a quote from his book Jerusalem Countdown - it does not sound anythig like what he is being accused of.

On page 192 - the Chapter on All Israel shall be saved - it is talking about a nation and not individuals.

#6 - the doctrine of divine election applies to nations and not to individuals. A remnant of the Jewish people has been divinely elected, and when the Gentile era ends, "all Israel will be saved." "All Israel" is to be identified as all believing Gentiles and Jews as evidenced by the natural branches (the Jewish people) of the olive tree and the unnatural branches (the believing Gentiles) Rom. 11:17 - 21

actually that fits with the other view of his statements as well depending on how you choose to look at it. When he says "believing gentiles and Jews" it is easy to think that he means "believing gentiles and believing Jews"

However, the next sentance says "the natural branches (the Jewish people) and the unnatural branches (believing gentiles)."

so, he doesn't specify that Jews have to believe, but he does specifiy that gentiles must.
The statement there could easily go either way.

The question would be, does he believe that all Jews will be saved, because all Jews will become believers in Jesus and all Jews will acknoledge Jesus as Lord? Or does he believe that all Jews will be saved wether they believe or not, because their nation has been divinely elected?

When he says that "Israel" includes natural Jews, and believing gentiles... is there a reason he specifically doesn't say "believing Jews"?

Another further question would be, giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he believes all Jews will be saved because all will come to believe in Jesus as Lord, has he allowed his views of this divine election to get in the way of evangelizing Jews? basically saying that there is no need to evangelize Jews?

In my particular branch of the Christian community its very popular to be infatuated with natural Israel. I've stated my views already that I believe natural Israel will eventually return to faith at the end. However, I also recognize from scripture that before the end, natural Israel will sign a pact with antichrist. I recognize that right now many of the orthodox Jewish groups are actively bringing political persecution against messianics in Israel.
I wonder how many people are going to be fooled into a place they never imagined they would be, because they blindly agree with everything Israel does.

 

[ContentInHim]

Here's one quote:

“I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”

-From the Houston Chronicle 1988 (Yeah, I know, it's an older source)

There is this, too, on his website under the FAQs...not quite sure what to make of it, to be honest, especially the last line:

Every Christian should remember the debt of gratitude the Christian community owes to the Jewish community. The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence or their origin. But Christians cannot explain their existence without Judaism. It was the Jewish people who gave us the written Scripture. They gave us the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They gave us the disciples and the apostle Paul. The Jewish people gave to Christianity the first Christian family, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus-our Savior! If you take away the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there is nothing left.

In reading, I see several areas where his writing reflects that Jews needn't accept Jesus Christ (of course, acceptance or decision theology isn't something I believe in anyway) but then later there's a paragraph where he denies saying these things. I don't know what to attribute that to.

Sometimes the internet has TOO much information!!

I don't disagree with either quotation. Remember that the Jews will receive their redemption through Jesus during the tribulation. Also, I agree that without the Jews there wouldn't be Christians. Jesus was a Jew. He was descended from a long line of Jews. And he fulfilled God's spring feasts which were and are kept by the Jews!

So where's the beef?

 

[ContentInHim]

This one?

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Thank you, criada, for searching this out. Yep, that's it and it's one I "never read" until this year. Interesting how that works, isn't it? You read the same scripture over and over and whap - right in front of your eyes is a verse/meaning/Holy Spirit inspiration that you never saw before!