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John 6 - full of symbolism
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Notice that the faith-full disciples "assumed no symbolism" in Matt 16.
Matt 16
5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
(some interesting rebuking for those who took him too literally on that symbol of bread)
===============================================================
Now notice what John does with that symbol of bread.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 6
30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
(Just when some folks want to claim that Jesus came to abolish all that the Father had spoken in scripture)
The symbol of manna - bread coming down out of heaven is used by John.
========================================================
Deut 8
2 You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
...
16 In the wilderness He fed you manna which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do good for you in the end.
Moses said that the spiritual lesson was that "Man does not live by BREAD alone but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God"
=================================== back to John 6
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
What is it that literally came down out of heaven? ?? -- "bread"??
Shall we repeat the too-literal mistake of the disciples in Matt 16 on the subject of bread?
42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Repeatedly stated that Jesus is the bread that CAME down out of heaven.
Not "I will one day in the future be bread and one day in the future you will need to eat this bread to have eternal life... but not now... no absolutely not now"
Rather Christ is adamant that they eat. And they do not bite him. Neither the faithless nor the faithful disciples bite Him. Yet He keeps telling them that if they want eternal life they must now eat that bread that already came down out of heaven.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the literal flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
The focus is away from the literal eating of bread -- and towards the WORDS and BELIEF that gives life.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
I love the fact that the Bible brings that sort of response from you in your efforts to deny it.
Matt 16
5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
(some interesting rebuking for those who took him too literally on that symbol of bread)
===============================================================
Now notice what John does with that symbol of bread.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 6
30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
(Just when some folks want to claim that Jesus came to abolish all that the Father had spoken in scripture)
The symbol of manna - bread coming down out of heaven is used by John.
========================================================
Deut 8
2 You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
...
16 In the wilderness He fed you manna which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do good for you in the end.
Moses said that the spiritual lesson was that "Man does not live by BREAD alone but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God"
=================================== back to John 6
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
What is it that literally came down out of heaven? ?? -- "bread"??
Shall we repeat the too-literal mistake of the disciples in Matt 16 on the subject of bread?
42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Repeatedly stated that Jesus is the bread that CAME down out of heaven.
Not "I will one day in the future be bread and one day in the future you will need to eat this bread to have eternal life... but not now... no absolutely not now"
Rather Christ is adamant that they eat. And they do not bite him. Neither the faithless nor the faithful disciples bite Him. Yet He keeps telling them that if they want eternal life they must now eat that bread that already came down out of heaven.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the literal flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
The focus is away from the literal eating of bread -- and towards the WORDS and BELIEF that gives life.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
I love the fact that the Bible brings that sort of response from you in your efforts to deny it.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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Indeed "where TWO or three are gathered in my name -THERE I AM in their midst" ... Protestants celebrate that Bible fact at every meeting, we have no need to imagine "confecting the body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ" in doing so.
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Jipsah
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I don't deny the Bible, Bob. In fact, I affirm it in the face of your denials. You cannot affirm the Real Presence in the Eucharist, despite the unmistakable words of our Lord and St. Paul, because your SDA doctrinal traditions don't allow it. Again, a fig for your traditions!
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Jesus said HE is the "BREAD that CAME down out of heaven" - already a fact in John 6.
Nice dodge. Like I said, it is not just the Roman Rite that believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It is all the Churches of the Catholic East and West for 2000 years.
Now tell me this....if what you are saying is true, then why didn't the first disciples teach and believe this? Remember, these were people who were filled with the Holy Spirit to the point of doing miracles. They met in council and gave us the canon of Scripture. If they were so led by the Holy Spirit, then how's come they believed in the Eucharist.
Kindly answer my question and don't try to dodge me with your theological sophistries.
Nice dodge. Like I said, it is not just the Roman Rite that believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It is all the Churches of the Catholic East and West for 2000 years.
Now tell me this....if what you are saying is true, then why didn't the first disciples teach and believe this? Remember, these were people who were filled with the Holy Spirit to the point of doing miracles. They met in council and gave us the canon of Scripture. If they were so led by the Holy Spirit, then how's come they believed in the Eucharist.
Kindly answer my question and don't try to dodge me with your theological sophistries.
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Hieronymus
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Not a fact regarding the last supper or Eucharist.
That's bread made by man on earth.
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