John 5 - Who Jesus Is and Why They Reject Him

[frumanchu]

It has been maintained by some (particularly proponents of "Responsible Grace" theology) that chapter five of the Gospel according to John...specifically verses 39 through 47...are in conflict with the Reformed understanding of salvation and predestination. The purpose of this thread is to examine the meaning of this passage in its context and establish what is (and isn't) being said by our Lord.

To set the context, Jesus has just healed a man at Bethesda on the sabbath, drawing the ire of Jews. He further infuriated them by declaring His equality with God the Father and speaking of His authority as judge over all men. It is specifically in the context of His bold claims of equality with the Father that we pick up with the following verses:

31"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
33"You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34"But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
35"He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
36"But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41"I do not receive glory from men;
42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" - John 5:31-47 (NASB)
​

In verse 31, Jesus begins by stating that His mere claim to His position is not sufficient testimony. He then proceeds to establish the fourfold witness to His full identity. In addition to His own testimony is that of John the Baptist (vv32-35), His own works (v36), that of the Father (v37-38) and that of the Scriptures (v39).

This fourfold witness being established, Jesus then proceeds to make clear the fourfold reasons the Jews reject Christ: they do not have the Word of the Father abiding in them (v38), they do not have the love of God in themselves (v42), they do not seek the glory from the one and only God (v44), and they do not believe the testimony of Moses (v47).

(As an aside it should be noted that John 5:39 holds a particular relevance to 2 Timothy 3:15, showing that meticulous reading of the Scriptures is not enough in and of itself to bring saving faith, for the Jews knew the Scriptures quite well yet refused to accept the Christ they pointed to.)

What Jesus here establishes is the fact that their rejection of Christ makes fully manifest the true rejection of those things which bear witness to Him. If one does not accept the premises, how can one accept the conclusion? If one does not accept the testimony of those things which witness to the identity of the Christ, how will they accept the testimony of the Christ Himself?

The message of the passage is clear: the Jews reject Jesus because the reject the testimony of those who bear witness to Him. They thus show forth the fact that the Word of God does not abide in them, that they do not have the love of God in themselves, that they do not seek His glory, and that they do not believe Moses. Their rejection of Christ is the manifestation of these realities.

To the issue of this passage and its relation to Reformed doctrine, there is no conflict to be found. The notion being put forth that this passage conflicts with Reformed doctrine on the basis that the focus on the will of the Jews highlights the crucial role of man's will in salvation to the complete exclusion of God's will in election. Implicit (and sometimes explicit) in this argument is the notion that the Jews have "no choice" but to reject Christ, and therefore to rebuke them is to speak against them for something over which they had no willful control.

That the Jews' rejection of Christ is a willful action on their part is explicitly clear from the text in verse 40. However this does not preclude God's sovereignty over the salvation of men.

All men are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3), at enmity with God (Rom 8:7) and of a defiled mind and conscience (Titus 1:15). As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires. The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. However, all men are in slavery to sin...they will invariably choose evil because their desires are evil. Even the superficially noble decision made is not done out of faith and is therefore sin (Rom 14:23).

As such, God's elective purposes in showing mercy to some and justice to others does not remove the responsibility of sin from the individual, for every sin committed by man is done so as an act of the will choosing according to the desire of the heart. To argue against the Reformed doctrine of predestination from this passage is tantamount to claiming the statement that a petunia has died because it did not have enough water is proof against the statement of the larger fact that there is presently a drought in the land. Both statements speak to the death of the plant, but deal with it at a different level and are not mutually exclusive. To argue that the lack of mention of God's election is proof that God's election had no bearing upon the events in view is simply a fallacious argument from silence.

So, in examining John 5:31-47 we see laid forth Jesus' examination of the fourfold witness to His identity in juxtaposition to the fourfold rejection by the Jews of this truth. It is in perfect keeping with the Reformed view.

 

[JDS]

It has been maintained by some (particularly proponents of "Responsible Grace" theology) that chapter five of the Gospel according to John...specifically verses 39 through 47...are in conflict with the Reformed understanding of salvation and predestination. The purpose of this thread is to examine the meaning of this passage in its context and establish what is (and isn't) being said by our Lord.

To set the context, Jesus has just healed a man at Bethesda on the sabbath, drawing the ire of Jews. He further infuriated them by declaring His equality with God the Father and speaking of His authority as judge over all men. It is specifically in the context of His bold claims of equality with the Father that we pick up with the following verses:

31"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
33"You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34"But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
35"He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
36"But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41"I do not receive glory from men;
42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" - John 5:31-47 (NASB)
​

In verse 31, Jesus begins by stating that His mere claim to His position is not sufficient testimony. He then proceeds to establish the fourfold witness to His full identity. In addition to His own testimony is that of John the Baptist (vv32-35), His own works (v36), that of the Father (v37-38) and that of the Scriptures (v39).

This fourfold witness being established, Jesus then proceeds to make clear the fourfold reasons the Jews reject Christ: they do not have the Word of the Father abiding in them (v38), they do not have the love of God in themselves (v42), they do not seek the glory from the one and only God (v44), and they do not believe the testimony of Moses (v47).

(As an aside it should be noted that John 5:39 holds a particular relevance to 2 Timothy 3:15, showing that meticulous reading of the Scriptures is not enough in and of itself to bring saving faith, for the Jews knew the Scriptures quite well yet refused to accept the Christ they pointed to.)

What Jesus here establishes is the fact that their rejection of Christ makes fully manifest the true rejection of those things which bear witness to Him. If one does not accept the premises, how can one accept the conclusion? If one does not accept the testimony of those things which witness to the identity of the Christ, how will they accept the testimony of the Christ Himself?

The message of the passage is clear: the Jews reject Jesus because the reject the testimony of those who bear witness to Him. They thus show forth the fact that the Word of God does not abide in them, that they do not have the love of God in themselves, that they do not seek His glory, and that they do not believe Moses. Their rejection of Christ is the manifestation of these realities.

To the issue of this passage and its relation to Reformed doctrine, there is no conflict to be found. The notion being put forth that this passage conflicts with Reformed doctrine on the basis that the focus on the will of the Jews highlights the crucial role of man's will in salvation to the complete exclusion of God's will in election. Implicit (and sometimes explicit) in this argument is the notion that the Jews have "no choice" but to reject Christ, and therefore to rebuke them is to speak against them for something over which they had no willful control.

That the Jews' rejection of Christ is a willful action on their part is explicitly clear from the text in verse 40. However this does not preclude God's sovereignty over the salvation of men.

All men are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3), at enmity with God (Rom 8:7) and of a defiled mind and conscience (Titus 1:15). As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires. The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. However, all men are in slavery to sin...they will invariably choose evil because their desires are evil. Even the superficially noble decision made is not done out of faith and is therefore sin (Rom 14:23).

As such, God's elective purposes in showing mercy to some and justice to others does not remove the responsibility of sin from the individual, for every sin committed by man is done so as an act of the will choosing according to the desire of the heart. To argue against the Reformed doctrine of predestination from this passage is tantamount to claiming the statement that a petunia has died because it did not have enough water is proof against the statement of the larger fact that there is presently a drought in the land. Both statements speak to the death of the plant, but deal with it at a different level and are not mutually exclusive. To argue that the lack of mention of God's election is proof that God's election had no bearing upon the events in view is simply a fallacious argument from silence.

So, in examining John 5:31-47 we see laid forth Jesus' examination of the fourfold witness to His identity in juxtaposition to the fourfold rejection by the Jews of this truth. It is in perfect keeping with the Reformed view.

Job 42:7 And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath]. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job. 10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

The friends of Job are great examples of confident men, self assured, suave, and educated above their intelligence. But their preaching almost got them killed! They probably would have been sharp enough to have spoken rightly about God if they would have had the privilege of 66 inspired books, written over a period of some 1600 years with the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach the things they did not understand. They would not have tried to explain that unbelievers could not believe, but they would have accepted the text in John 5 that says they would not believe.

Has it ever occured to anyone how dufus it would make God appear to have created men on the earth to give him pleasure, See Re 4:11, and spend 3 1/2 years in public ministry trying to convince them that he was God and Messiah, knowing full well that he had created these very men to not be able to believe what he said and showed to them? What would we do to a man who displayed these characteristics in any other profession? Would we applaud him? Would we worship him?

It is obvious to the unpolluted mind when reading this testimony that the 4 witnesses of this text is for the purpose of convincing all who behold them that Jesus is the Christ of God and that his testimony to the world is true.
John said he recorded the selected miracles of Jesus for the express purpose that men might believe this.

Jn 29:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If I were going to teach something about God that is not true, I would sure want someone around that could pray for me when the judgment came. The subject of election is not dealt with in the text and Jesus came to save men from their sins!

 

[Benoni]

All men are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3), at enmity with God (Rom 8:7) and of a defiled mind and conscience (Titus 1:15). As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires. The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. However, all men are in slavery to sin...they will invariably choose evil because their desires are evil. Even the superficially noble decision made is not done out of faith and is therefore sin (Rom 14:23).

As such, God's elective purposes in showing mercy to some and justice to others does not remove the responsibility of sin from the individual, for every sin committed by man is done so as an act of the will choosing according to the desire of the heart. To argue against the Reformed doctrine of predestination from this passage is tantamount to claiming the statement that a petunia has died because it did not have enough water is proof against the statement of the larger fact that there is presently a drought in the land. Both statements speak to the death of the plant, but deal with it at a different level and are not mutually exclusive. To argue that the lack of mention of God's election is proof that God's election had no bearing upon the events in view is simply a fallacious argument from silence.

So, in examining John 5:31-47 we see laid forth Jesus' examination of the fourfold witness to His identity in juxtaposition to the fourfold rejection by the Jews of this truth. It is in perfect keeping with the Reformed view.

You said: As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires.

I totally agree; but then you placed the blame back on carnal man?

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.
Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.


This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.


But then you totally changed your view and said: The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. Where does it say carnal man cannot choose God? I agree with much of what you say, but you are trying to box in God’s Word much like the Jew’s did during Jesus day. Carnal man has no ability or will to do anything but reject God’s salvation; not until God Himself draws him. His nature; the very essence of his character is dead in trespasses and sin; to anything Godly, God is not calling all people now; so that very reason carnal man has not been called; so all he can do is reject, reject and reject.

The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God choice not little man.


Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

I will also add you are absolutely wrong in the point that the Bible teaches freewill; I see no free mortal agent or choice when it comes to salvation in its pages. I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures; except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust.. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

God is not calling all people now. If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession: If God does not call you, you cannot come.

Jesus took on the responsibility for all men’s sin on Calvary, He reversed the curse. (As you probably have noticed I am a Christian Universalist)

In with by (en) Gk: Christ, George

 

[JDS]

It is obvious to the unpolluted mind when reading this testimony that the 4 witnesses of this text is for the purpose of convincing all who behold them that Jesus is the Christ of God and that his testimony to the world is true.
John said he recorded the selected miracles of Jesus for the express purpose that men might believe this.

Expanding on this point, The very fact that these miracles did what God intended they do, that is to convince them that he is God, strengthens the argument that these men refused to believe as a matter of their own free will in spite of it.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

He did not say, "I know", but he said "we know". He let the cat out of the bag! The miracles were convincing to the Pharisees. This means they rejected Jesus with knowledge, reason, and forethought! If they rejected him, it means that they had a ligitimate invitation to accept him and his promises to them of everlasting life would be realized. Believing was the condition for the blessings of God all through the gospels and the epistles and the revelation. Jesus made this very point, with an illustration to Nicodemus before he left him.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Believing is the operative principle of salvation! Always! It is what men must do! Always!

Believing is not in the salvation package that God offers. It is the means of receiving the salvation package.
Here are a couple of illustrations:

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and (if thou) shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If is a conditional term!

Here is another for good measure:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This is very broad and the preposition "unto" requires that believing takes place in order to be saved. This should prove that faith is indeed the condition for receiving salvation to anyone who will take it!

Now, God himself said, unequivically, that a man who will be saved must "do" something and God himself cannot save a man unless he "do" it.

Cornelius was an unsaved man who desired to be saved and prayed to God for it. But God, hearing his prayer, did not save him because he had not met the condition for his salvation. So, God sent his angel to tell him what he must do to be saved. Acts 10:6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

What did Peter say to this unsaved man to get him saved?

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Not "has", but shall, receive remission of sins.

Just in case there is any doubt that Cornelius was saved, Peter testifies to his Jewish friends later: 3 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
He was not saved until he heard the word of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but what made him saved?

The hearing of the word itself did not save them! Something else saved them. What was it? Are we told?

They believed the Word and this then is salvation accrding to the text!

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Mission was accomplised because Peter quit speaking!

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

There can be no argument about this! Salvation is defined by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and believing is the means to receive him. God said in this text that a man must believe! That is what he must do! There are specific things one must hear and believe about Jesus Christ in order to be saved! If he does not believe these things he will not be saved!

 

[Benoni]

JDS,

Lets just start with insults; I feel the same about you; so what is your point? It is a matter of a polluted mind; I like the word stagnate, your mind is stagnant; stagnate with creeds and dogmas that just sit there; God’ Word is a progressive Word that flows; something you refuse to do.

I am going to start with John 3:16 which is one of the most awesome verses in the Bible when it comes to Jesus declaring the salvation of God. This verse which is used by men like you with the intent of condemning billions is far from what these awesome verses are declaring; lets look a little closer at God’s Word not your opinion.

John 3:16 it is not the only scripture in the Bible. It is also is not the hub of the wheel for the whole Bible; Jesus blood that was shed for all men.

John 3:16
I have always hated the way traditional teaching has used this awesome verse in the Bible on one hand to point to salvation which it does; but on the other hand condemn the rest of humanity which it does not

Look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted;according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all";in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all,
believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe");
to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

AP Adams Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of
the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow,
shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save
the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators
of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Benoni]

JDS,

My point of believing is you cannot believe until the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and draws you to God; sure you have to believe BUT if God does not call you (God is not calling the whole world now) you have no freewill on your own volitions to come to Christ; it is God’s grace we are saved by not mans freewill. Once God calls you then and only then do you have the ability to come.

When it comes to the Jews what an awesome example of men so caught up in their dogmas, creeds, traditions; in other words their man made religion to where they were totally blinded to what God was truly saying. God hides His Word from religious men.

If Jesus had a problem with anyone during His walk on this earth it was religion and not the sinners.

Anti-Christ:
Religious men have lost their first love and have turned to another other then God’s anointing within (anti anointing/anti Christ same thing). This is where the true Church is it is not made up of man made creed dogmas and 20,000 denominational systems; it is simply Christ with in us the hope of glory. Today men follow Popes and preacher and ministry not because we are touching the hem of His garment but because it is what we been taught. If you are Roman Catholic (Baptist/Pentecostal/Mormon/etc) because your Father was Roman Catholic, you’re Grand Father or what ever. Or maybe you have actually heard God’s voice and are walking in the abode he showed you; but there is always more, it gets deeper and wider. In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. So do you brother have a different abiding place then all of us. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now.
God has a deep hidden awesome Word that men just like the Jews in Jesus time cannot receive because it does not fit in their old worn out wine skins

John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (KJV)

 

[frumanchu]

If I were going to teach something about God that is not true, I would sure want someone around that could pray for me when the judgment came. The subject of election is not dealt with in the text and Jesus came to save men from their sins!

I hope you have that friend around when the time comes.

I never said this passage dealt with the subject of election. My whole point was that it does NOT speak to the issue of election, despite what some claim. I never set John 5 forth as any sort of proof text for the Biblical doctrine of election...I simply demonstrated how it is not in conflict with it.

 

[frumanchu]

You said:As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires.

I totally agree; but then you placed the blame back on carnal man?



But then you totally changed your view and said: The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. Where does it say carnal man cannot choose God? I agree with much of what you say, but you are trying to box in God’s Word much like the Jew’s did during Jesus day. Carnal man has no ability or will to do anything but reject God’s salvation; not until God Himself draws him. His nature; the very essence of his character is dead in trespasses and sin; to anything Godly, God is not calling all people now; so that very reason carnal man has not been called; so all he can do is reject, reject and reject.

The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God choice not little man.


Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

I will also add you are absolutely wrong in the point that the Bible teaches freewill; I see no free mortal agent or choice when it comes to salvation in its pages. I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures; except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust.. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

God is not calling all people now. If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop 1 Corinthians 15:22-2422For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession: If God does not call you, you cannot come.

Jesus took on the responsibility for all men’s sin on Calvary, He reversed the curse. (As you probably have noticed I am a Christian Universalist)

In with by (en) Gk: Christ, George

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about the nature of man's will, particularly the natural vs moral aspect of it. Man's natural function of will is free only insofar as he is able to choose according to his desire. It is in all other respects in slavery in that his desires are continually wicked and thus every choice he makes is tainted by evil.

If you get a chance, read Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will. It explains what I'm talking about with respect to the nature of man's will.

 

[Benoni]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about the nature of man's will, particularly the natural vs moral aspect of it. Man's natural function of will is free only insofar as he is able to choose according to his desire. It is in all other respects in slavery in that his desires are continually wicked and thus every choice he makes is tainted by evil.

If you get a chance, read Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will. It explains what I'm talking about with respect to the nature of man's will.

I agree with you about man's will as you have stated above; my problem man does not have a will to choose salvation.

 

[Benoni]

Naked? So?

The first religous act in the Bible is when Adam and Eve found themselves naked. Our belief is our clothing spiritually speaking.

Adam and Eve walked in the garden and found them selves naked. Before that nakedness they walked and talked with God, ate forbidden fruit and named all the animals.

Adam and Eve were both…NAKED! Among all the creatures which God made, man stands out unique…stark naked…which means devoid of true wisdom and knowledge, with his inner nature revealed, opened up, exhibited, and made bare. Oh, that God may give us understanding to see that to be naked means to have THE FLESH UNCOVERED AND EXPOSED! In the typology of scripture "the flesh" is the name by which the Holy Spirit designates our outer life of soul and body, our earthly and carnal human nature, literally speaking of that nature which is earthly minded, with its lusts and self-centeredness, its ego and I-will which are in rebellion to the spirit. Thus, the flesh is not the outward, visible man of meat, muscle, and bones, but the nature of the soulical and bodily man. This nature was in man from the beginning, else Eve (who was of the man) could not have been tempted, nor could they have sinned! This nature could be seen to be in them from the time God lowered them out of their pure spirit existence, in the image and likeness of God, investing them with a body of earth so that man became a living soul. But as long as man was caught up in God he was not aware of it — for he was naked and was not ashamed (Gen. 2:25). Have we not all experienced the same thing?

In seasons when we are caught up in the Spirit of God, flooded with His presence, sin is far from our minds. It is easy to be holy standing in the ecstasy of God’s glory! The flesh nature is still there, but in that blessed moment we are not ashamed, for we are unaware.

The greatest opposition that Jesus ever faced was not the government in Rome, but the religious spirit that ruled in the hearts of his own people. Jesus himself said, “A man’s foes shall be those of his own household.” The greatest opposition Joseph ever faced was not Potiphar or Pharaoh but escaping death by the hand of his own religious brothers. The greatest foe of the Israelites in the wilderness was not the heathen nations they encountered on their journey through the wilderness, but those who were in their midst who were not circumcised in heart. It was this religious group that caused more Israelites to die in the wilderness than all of their enemies combined. The greatest foe of the Anabaptists (a group of believers that rose up after the protestant reformation) was not the Church of Rome, but their Lutheran brethren who still practiced infantile baptism, who just thirty years before were God’s anointed instrument in the Earth. I’ll be bold enough to say that the greatest hindrance of the move of God today in the United States and in the hearts of those that profess to know God is the spirit of this


“After the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee” (Acts 26:5).

From the above scripture Saul/Paul plainly states that he was a VERY religious man until one day he had a direct encounter with the Lord (Acts 9:3-5). From that moment on his “religion” began to fade away, and he began to embrace the new and living way. Later on he again declared, “But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ” (Phil 3:7-8; NAS). Paul’s own assessment of his past religious achievements was rubbish and something to be discarded. He gave up a religion that trusted in human attainments and the work of man to appease God. To the Pharisee salvation was a work of man that gave them a sense of self-satisfaction (Rom. 10:2-4). Sadly enough there are many religious minded believers today that are working for God, not with God. Jesus addresses this mindset when He says; “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them,

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’ (Mt. 7:22-23; NAS). There are those in the body of Christ that use their God given gift outside of His will and base their relationship with God around their good works. That’s part of the religion of this world, not an intimate relationship with the Heavenly Father!

Unlike those above who thought that their identity was in their gifting, Paul had a new goal that cried out from the depths of his soul, “That I may gain Christ, and be found in Him!” The etymology of our English word “gain” comes from Old High German that has a literal meaning: “a pasture without fences.” When God starts to usher us into the fullness of Christ it truly is a pasture without fences. To change the metaphor, “there are waters to swim in” (Ezek. 47:5), or “skip about like calves let from the stall” (Mal. 4:2). I have found that many who profess the name of Christ do not worship Him in truth but are confined to worship a religious image of Christ that keeps them spiritually confined and fenced in. So we find the body of Christ worshipping the graven image of a Baptist Jesus, Pentecostal Jesus, Methodist Jesus, Church of Christ Jesus, a Lutheran Jesus, Presbyterian Jesus, and many non-denominational yet denominational Jesus’. It is easy to name that spirit and the kind of worship that surrounds it; it’s called IDOLATRY! We have changed the incorruptible image of God into a corruptible image made by the hands of men (Rom. 1:23; Ps. 106:19-20). Paul said it this way; “That each one of you is saying, ‘I am of Paul’, and ‘I of Apollos’, and ‘I of Cephas’, and ‘I of Christ’” (1Cor. 1:12). I pray that God will destroy all of the graven images we have erected in His name. Yes, mystery Babylon is going to be destroyed in a day by the Daystar Himself!

Our English word “religion” comes from the Latin “religio” which means “a taboo, a restraint” and bespeaks of a system exercised by the will of man designed to gain favor with God. The word broken down is “re” (return) +”ligare” (to bond with a restraint). Simply stated the word means… RETURN TO BONDAGE! Religion keeps us eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, living in a realm of “do this, don’t do that.” Religion in a scriptural nutshell is living in Romans chapter seven when we ought to be living in Romans chapter eight. It is an impossibility to do both. The Greek word for “religion” is threskeia, which means “outward ceremonial observance.” The religious sects of Jesus’ day asked Him when the Kingdom would come. He said, “The Kingdom of God does not come with observation” (Lk.17:21), it is not ushered in by some outward ceremonial observance.

I do not believe by scriptural definition that true Christianity is a religion. Christianity can become a religion as soon as we inject it with self-effort and self-will. When we turn it into some form of enterprise that becomes primarily self-serving for the interests of the flesh, it becomes a religion. For some, quote, Christian folk, if they were to really be truthful with themselves, the primary reason they go to Church is to FEEL GOOD! Jesus had these kinds of folk following Him. He spoke a message concerning them eating His flesh and drinking His blood which afterwards many quit following Him and not being intimidated by this he turned to the twelve and asked if they were going to leave also (Jn. 6:54).

 

[JDS]

JDS,

My point of believing is you cannot believe until the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and draws you to God; sure you have to believe BUT if God does not call you (God is not calling the whole world now) you have no freewill on your own volitions to come to Christ; it is God’s grace we are saved by not mans freewill. Once God calls you then and only then do you have the ability to come.

When it comes to the Jews what an awesome example of men so caught up in their dogmas, creeds, traditions; in other words their man made religion to where they were totally blinded to what God was truly saying. God hides His Word from religious men.

If Jesus had a problem with anyone during His walk on this earth it was religion and not the sinners.

Anti-Christ:
Religious men have lost their first love and have turned to another other then God’s anointing within (anti anointing/anti Christ same thing). This is where the true Church is it is not made up of man made creed dogmas and 20,000 denominational systems; it is simply Christ with in us the hope of glory. Today men follow Popes and preacher and ministry not because we are touching the hem of His garment but because it is what we been taught. If you are Roman Catholic (Baptist/Pentecostal/Mormon/etc) because your Father was Roman Catholic, you’re Grand Father or what ever. Or maybe you have actually heard God’s voice and are walking in the abode he showed you; but there is always more, it gets deeper and wider. In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. So do you brother have a different abiding place then all of us. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now.
God has a deep hidden awesome Word that men just like the Jews in Jesus time cannot receive because it does not fit in their old worn out wine skins

John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (KJV)

If it is universalism you are pushing, don't expect me to agree with you.

 

[Benoni]

If it is universalism you are pushing, don't expect me to agree with you.

No I am just pushing the Bible; did you see something contrary to the scriptures?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by JDS:
Has it ever occured to anyone how dufus it would make God appear to have created men on the earth to give him pleasure, See Re 4:11, and spend 3 1/2 years in public ministry trying to convince them that he was God and Messiah, knowing full well that he had created these very men to not be able to believe what he said and showed to them? What would we do to a man who displayed these characteristics in any other profession? Would we applaud him? Would we worship him?​

Excellent post. The most fundamental aspect of God's nature, is that "God is love" (1Jn4:16); and "love cannot demand its own way" (zeteo, in 1Cor13:5). Salvation is fellowship, communion between God and man (1Jn1:1-3, 6-7; Jn17:3). It is why the veil tore when Jesus died; cleansed-pure by Jesus' blood, we are invited behind the veil, to commune with Almighty God.

Not only does "predestination" diametrically oppose the concept of "unforced love", it denies blatant Scriptural truths --- such as John10:38, where Jesus says essentially "you can believe in Me just by looking at what I've DONE". It denies the efficacy of rebukes-towards-repentance, like in Matt11:21-24 (perfectly reflecting what I just said about John10:38), three entire cities were condemned for NOT believing. "If THEY (Tyre, Sidon, and even Sodom) had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED; it will go better for THEM in the Judgment, than for you!"

Other rebukes-towards-repentance worth mentioning, are Matt23:13, and of course John5:39-47.

Quote:
It is obvious to the unpolluted mind when reading this testimony that the 4 witnesses of this text is for the purpose of convincing all who behold them that Jesus is the Christ of God and that his testimony to the world is true.
John said he recorded the selected miracles of Jesus for the express purpose that men might believe this.​

That aligns perfectly with what we just read in John10:38. And the rebuke of Matt11:21-24.

Quote:
Jn 29:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Nice --- another verse that plainly says "THAT believing, you might HAVE life". In Jn5:39-47, the Calvinist idea of "receiving-life that we may COME to Jesus" is clearly opposed ("You are unwilling to COME to Me that you may HAVE life"); and it's a clear rebuke TOWARDS belief.

Quote:
If I were going to teach something about God that is not true, I would sure want someone around that could pray for me when the judgment came. The subject of election is not dealt with in the text and Jesus came to save men from their sins!​

How can there be a "Judgment", if all has been decided long ago, by GOD?

The whole concept of "God decides belief and repentance", is diametrically opposed to Scripture; in Rom2:2-8, God's patience and kindness and forebearance are meant to lead men to repentance --- but stubborn unrepentant hearts store up WRATH from God, who judges each man because of what he DOES. That passage alone demands acknowledgment of "free will belief"...

 

[cygnusx1]

It has been maintained by some (particularly proponents of "Responsible Grace" theology) that chapter five of the Gospel according to John...specifically verses 39 through 47...are in conflict with the Reformed understanding of salvation and predestination. The purpose of this thread is to examine the meaning of this passage in its context and establish what is (and isn't) being said by our Lord.

To set the context, Jesus has just healed a man at Bethesda on the sabbath, drawing the ire of Jews. He further infuriated them by declaring His equality with God the Father and speaking of His authority as judge over all men. It is specifically in the context of His bold claims of equality with the Father that we pick up with the following verses:

31"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
33"You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34"But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
35"He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
36"But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38"You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
39"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41"I do not receive glory from men;
42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" - John 5:31-47 (NASB)
​

In verse 31, Jesus begins by stating that His mere claim to His position is not sufficient testimony. He then proceeds to establish the fourfold witness to His full identity. In addition to His own testimony is that of John the Baptist (vv32-35), His own works (v36), that of the Father (v37-38) and that of the Scriptures (v39).

This fourfold witness being established, Jesus then proceeds to make clear the fourfold reasons the Jews reject Christ: they do not have the Word of the Father abiding in them (v38), they do not have the love of God in themselves (v42), they do not seek the glory from the one and only God (v44), and they do not believe the testimony of Moses (v47).

(As an aside it should be noted that John 5:39 holds a particular relevance to 2 Timothy 3:15, showing that meticulous reading of the Scriptures is not enough in and of itself to bring saving faith, for the Jews knew the Scriptures quite well yet refused to accept the Christ they pointed to.)

What Jesus here establishes is the fact that their rejection of Christ makes fully manifest the true rejection of those things which bear witness to Him. If one does not accept the premises, how can one accept the conclusion? If one does not accept the testimony of those things which witness to the identity of the Christ, how will they accept the testimony of the Christ Himself?

The message of the passage is clear: the Jews reject Jesus because the reject the testimony of those who bear witness to Him. They thus show forth the fact that the Word of God does not abide in them, that they do not have the love of God in themselves, that they do not seek His glory, and that they do not believe Moses. Their rejection of Christ is the manifestation of these realities.

To the issue of this passage and its relation to Reformed doctrine, there is no conflict to be found. The notion being put forth that this passage conflicts with Reformed doctrine on the basis that the focus on the will of the Jews highlights the crucial role of man's will in salvation to the complete exclusion of God's will in election. Implicit (and sometimes explicit) in this argument is the notion that the Jews have "no choice" but to reject Christ, and therefore to rebuke them is to speak against them for something over which they had no willful control.

That the Jews' rejection of Christ is a willful action on their part is explicitly clear from the text in verse 40. However this does not preclude God's sovereignty over the salvation of men.

All men are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3), at enmity with God (Rom 8:7) and of a defiled mind and conscience (Titus 1:15). As such, apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit to change their hearts unregenerate men will continually and persistently reject God in favor of their own sinful desires. The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. However, all men are in slavery to sin...they will invariably choose evil because their desires are evil. Even the superficially noble decision made is not done out of faith and is therefore sin (Rom 14:23).

As such, God's elective purposes in showing mercy to some and justice to others does not remove the responsibility of sin from the individual, for every sin committed by man is done so as an act of the will choosing according to the desire of the heart. To argue against the Reformed doctrine of predestination from this passage is tantamount to claiming the statement that a petunia has died because it did not have enough water is proof against the statement of the larger fact that there is presently a drought in the land. Both statements speak to the death of the plant, but deal with it at a different level and are not mutually exclusive. To argue that the lack of mention of God's election is proof that God's election had no bearing upon the events in view is simply a fallacious argument from silence.

So, in examining John 5:31-47 we see laid forth Jesus' examination of the fourfold witness to His identity in juxtaposition to the fourfold rejection by the Jews of this truth. It is in perfect keeping with the Reformed view.

good work Fru !!

and now for the popcorn

 

[DeaconDean]

good work Fru !!

and now for the popcorn

Yea, I'm waiting for the fireworks to start.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Benoni:
But then you totally changed your view and said: The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. Where does it say carnal man cannot choose God?​

This is the problem --- "desire", is defined to convey "only sin if unelected, only righteousness if elected". This violates many passages, not the least of which is 2Pet1:5-10 --- where we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling and election (against the example of the man who FORSOOK his former purity) --- that the gates of Heaven BE (abundantly) provided to us. IOW, "that we MAKE it". Fully reflecting in Heb4:11...

Quote:
I agree with much of what you say, but you are trying to box in God’s Word much like the Jew’s did during Jesus day. Carnal man has no ability or will to do anything but reject God’s salvation; not until God Himself draws him. His nature; the very essence of his character is dead in trespasses and sin; to anything Godly, God is not calling all people now; so that very reason carnal man has not been called; so all he can do is reject, reject and reject.​

Please show me the principle in Scripture, that "ALL MEN", are not "called". See Matt22:2-14, where "MANY are called, but few are chosen".

Quote:
The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God's choice not little man.​

No, there is a world of difference between "CALL", and "COME". Clearly explained by Jesus in the parable we just mentioned --- Matt22. ALL are called, but NOT all, came. The "helkuo-drag" forces each man to the door, but they don't have to enter in.

Quote:
Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.​

Rom9 must be taken in context with the whole, including 11:21-23, and 32.

Besides, "Jacob" and "Essau", represent two peoples. Or do you believe that God sets out to create men ONLY destined to sin and hell (even though He HATES sin), giving them NO chance and NO hope of ever escaping the flames?

What character of God would allow that???

Quote:
I will also add you are absolutely wrong in the point that the Bible teaches freewill; I see no free mortal agent or choice when it comes to salvation in its pages.​

Then read Matt7:21-24 (men WHO act/believe, are wise, but men WHO do not act [disbelieve] are foolish). Read Ezk18:24-32. Deut30:15-18. Joshua 24:15. Rom2:2-8. Many more.

Quote:
I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures; except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust.. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.​

Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "men aren't called for salvation"; read Luke's words in Acts17:30, Paul's in 1Tim2:1-4.

Quote:
God is not calling all people now. If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will;​

Not only do we HAVE a choice, but the choice is continuous --- hence warnings to persist IN salvation, in Heb3:6-14, and 4:11. In 2Pet1:5-10, 2:20-22, and 3:17 (with 14). In 2Jn1:7-9. In 1Jn2:26-28. In Col2:6-8 --- notice that most of those passages warn US, the SAVED, against "being deceived away from God".

Quote:
only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop 1 Corinthians 15:22-2422For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession: If God does not call you, you cannot come.​

First, God calls EVERYONE. Second, the "no one can come unless the Father draws", is said in response to the Jews questioning Jesus' authority --- the key is verse 42.

An "I'm-authorized" passage, cannot be changed into a "predestination" passage.

And "Universalism" is no less "predestinary" than "Calvinism"; that's why I included it in the text I wrote; the same argument that overturns Calvinism ("a few are predestined, and all predestined WILL be saved"), also overturns Universalism ("all are predestined, and all predestined WILL be saved").

No one is predestined. God does not judge men for what HE decides. Rom2:6-8 is very clear.

Quote:
Jesus took on the responsibility for all men’s sin on Calvary, He reversed the curse. (As you probably have noticed I am a Christian Universalist) ​

Then you deny Jesus' own words --- not everyone shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by DeaconDean:
Yea, I'm waiting for the fireworks to start.​

No fireworks. His powder is wet.

 

[Benoni]

Quoted by Benoni:
But then you totally changed your view and said: The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. Where does it say carnal man cannot choose God?
​

This is the problem --- "desire", is defined to convey "only sin if unelected, only righteousness if elected". This violates many passages, not the least of which is 2Pet1:5-10 --- where we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling and election (against the example of the man who FORSOOK his former purity) --- that the gates of Heaven BE (abundantly) provided to us. IOW, "that we MAKE it". Fully reflecting in Heb4:11...

Quote:
I agree with much of what you say, but you are trying to box in God’s Word much like the Jew’s did during Jesus day. Carnal man has no ability or will to do anything but reject God’s salvation; not until God Himself draws him. His nature; the very essence of his character is dead in trespasses and sin; to anything Godly, God is not calling all people now; so that very reason carnal man has not been called; so all he can do is reject, reject and reject.
​

Please show me the principle in Scripture, that "ALL MEN", are not "called". See Matt22:2-14, where "MANY are called, but few are chosen".

Quote:
The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God's choice not little man.
​

No, there is a world of difference between "CALL", and "COME". Clearly explained by Jesus in the parable we just mentioned --- Matt22. ALL are called, but NOT all, came. The "helkuo-drag" forces each man to the door, but they don't have to enter in.

Quote:
Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
​

Rom9 must be taken in context with the whole, including 11:21-23, and 32.

Besides, "Jacob" and "Essau", represent two peoples. Or do you believe that God sets out to create men ONLY destined to sin and hell (even though He HATES sin), giving them NO chance and NO hope of ever escaping the flames?

What character of God would allow that???

Quote:
I will also add you are absolutely wrong in the point that the Bible teaches freewill; I see no free mortal agent or choice when it comes to salvation in its pages.
​

Then read Matt7:21-24 (men WHO act/believe, are wise, but men WHO do not act [disbelieve] are foolish). Read Ezk18:24-32. Deut30:15-18. Joshua 24:15. Rom2:2-8. Many more.

Quote:
I have searched the scriptures; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures; except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust.. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.
​

Nowhere in Scripture is the idea that "men aren't called for salvation"; read Luke's words in Acts17:30, Paul's in 1Tim2:1-4.

Quote:
God is not calling all people now. If God calls you, you have no choice…….God is calling out a people to do His will;
​

Not only do we HAVE a choice, but the choice is continuous --- hence warnings to persist IN salvation, in Heb3:6-14, and 4:11. In 2Pet1:5-10, 2:20-22, and 3:17 (with 14). In 2Jn1:7-9. In 1Jn2:26-28. In Col2:6-8 --- notice that most of those passages warn US, the SAVED, against "being deceived away from God".

Quote:
only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop 1 Corinthians 15:22-2422For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession: If God does not call you, you cannot come.
​

First, God calls EVERYONE. Second, the "no one can come unless the Father draws", is said in response to the Jews questioning Jesus' authority --- the key is verse 42.

An "I'm-authorized" passage, cannot be changed into a "predestination" passage.

And "Universalism" is no less "predestinary" than "Calvinism"; that's why I included it in the text I wrote; the same argument that overturns Calvinism ("a few are predestined, and all predestined WILL be saved"), also overturns Universalism ("all are predestined, and all predestined WILL be saved").

No one is predestined. God does not judge men for what HE decides. Rom2:6-8 is very clear.

Quote:
Jesus took on the responsibility for all men’s sin on Calvary, He reversed the curse. (As you probably have noticed I am a Christian Universalist)
​

Then you deny Jesus' own words --- not everyone shall inherit the kingdom of God.

True not every one will inherit the Kingdom of God; but all will be saved.

Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

 

[Benoni]

Quoted by Benoni:
But then you totally changed your view and said: The choice is clearly laid before them: repent or perish; believe or be condemned. All men possess the natural volitional ability to choose...all men are free to choose according to their desire. Where does it say carnal man cannot choose God?
​

This is the problem --- "desire", is defined to convey "only sin if unelected, only righteousness if elected". This violates many passages, not the least of which is 2Pet1:5-10 --- where we must be all the more diligent to make certain of our calling and election (against the example of the man who FORSOOK his former purity) --- that the gates of Heaven BE (abundantly) provided to us. IOW, "that we MAKE it". Fully reflecting in Heb4:11...

​

The problem with this statement is the priesthood of God; plus the multiple verses that declares the salvation for all people. I agree the God is not calling the unjust (I do not like the word righteous for my only righteousness’ is the blood of Jesus). Why would God make us Kings and Priest and at the same time torture billions upon billions of people with no mercy. This is where you eternalhellist are missing God’s purposes. Notice the word saviors (“s) plural) in Obadiah 1:21. This is also demonstrated with the Melchizedek Priest Hood as well as the Tabernacle of David in Act’s 15; the firstfruits and Benjamin.


Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.


Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I know this confuses a lot of God’s people but many are so inclined to believe that heaven is a place where we will all go and sing and play harps etc. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is the remainder of mankind.

Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[beloved57]

Please show me the principle in Scripture, that "ALL MEN", are not "called". See Matt22:2-14, where "MANY are called, but few are chosen".

From scriptures like this, you can infer all are not called 1 cor 1:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

rom 9:

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So an understanding of these verses can show that all in every single man is called to salvation..

The matt 22 passage is giving us to know, that Israel in general was a called people nationally, all in Israel were of Gods national covenant people, that came up out of egypt, but there was only a chosen remnant in the nation..so in this sense many in Israel had been called but few chosen..Also in General, when the gospel call for the elect is preached, its in hearing of the non elect, hence they outwardly hear the call of the elect who hear it inwardly and effectually..but its abundantly clear in scripture to the honest reader, that all are not called to salvation as in rom 8:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse gives no sense that all individuals indiscrimantly are called according to Gods eternal purpose..