Did John write the book of John? Or did Lazarus? I think Lazarus.

[1Tonne]

At the end of the book of John, it tells us who the author of this book is. It tells us that the "one whom Jesus loved" was the one who wrote the book of John. It says:
"Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them—the one who also had leaned back on His chest at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who is betraying You?” So Peter, upon seeing him, said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this account went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying about these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true." John 21:20-24
So, we know that whoever was known to be the one whom Jesus loved the most was the author of the book of John.
Now if we look through the book of John it mentions "the one whom Jesus loved" several times. The first time this phrase is used was with Lazurus when he was sick and about to die. It says, "Now a certain man was sick: Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. And it was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. So, the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick." John 11:3
Then, when Lazurus died, it says in John 11:35-36 that Jesus wept and that the Jews were so amazed that they said, "See how He loved him!" It is even said with an exclamation mark to show how much the Jews stressed this point. Jesus loved Lazarus a lot.
Then a little further on in John 13:23, we see the disciple whom Jesus loved again. In this text, it does not mention any names but one of the disciples is leaning on Jesus' bosom. This disciple was loved by Jesus. "Lying back on Jesus’ chest was one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved". This person who leaned on Jesus' breast is confirmed to be the author of the book of John as previously mentioned in John 21:20-24.

There are other verses too that mention the author of the book of John. That is, "the one that Jesus loved." There is John 19:26, John 20:2-8 and John 21:7.

My question is, how do we know that it was John who wrote this book when if we read it, the evidence says it was Lazurus?

 

[Lost4words]

Its John.

 

[HTacianas]

At the end of the book of John, it tells us who the author of this book is. It tells us that the "one whom Jesus loved" was the one who wrote the book of John. See John 21:20-24.
"Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them—the one who also had leaned back on His chest at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who is betraying You?” So Peter, upon seeing him, said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this account went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying about these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."
So, we know that whoever was known to be the one whom Jesus loved the most was the author of the book of John.
Now if we look through the book of John it mentions "the one whom Jesus loved" several times. The first time this phrase is used was with Lazurus when he was sick and about to die. It says, "Now a certain man was sick: Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. And it was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. So, the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
Then, when Lazurus died, it says in John 11:35-36 that Jesus wept and that the Jews were so amazed that they said, "See how He loved him!" It is even said with an exclamation mark to show how much the Jews stressed this point. Jesus loved Lazarus a lot.
Then a little further on in John 13:23, we see the disciple whom Jesus loved again. In this text, it does not mention any names but one of the disciples is leaning on Jesus' bosom. This disciple was loved by Jesus. "Lying back on Jesus’ chest was one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved". This person who leaned on Jesus' breast is confirmed to be the author of the book of John as previously mentioned in John 21:20-24.

There are other verses too that mention the author of the book of John. That is, "the one that Jesus loved." There is John 19:26, John 20:2-8 and John 21:7.

My question is, how do we know that it was John who wrote this book when if we read it, it says that it is Lazurus?

There is a belief floating around out there that John was in fact Lazarus. Carrying the story further, after the crucifixion John was entrusted with the care of Mary. She went with him to Ephesus. Rather than being executed there by the Romans, he was exiled to Patmos. The reason was that the Romans had heard stories that he had returned from the dead, and that the woman he was seen with had given birth to "a god". The superstitious Romans would rather exile him than crucify him to prevent stirring up the wrath of some unknown god.

 

[FenderTL5]

"Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them—the one who also had leaned back on His chest at the supper..
.. This is the disciple who is testifying about these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."
and John 21:7.

My question is, how do we know that it was John who wrote this book when if we read it, it says that it is Lazurus?

Do you hve any evidence that would suggest Lazarus was present at the supper?

 

[sandman]

You are looking at this through your senses…. analyzed with logic and reason

The Word says all scripture is given by inspiration of/from God … (God Breathed)

Everything in the Word of God … is /was given by inspiration 2Ti 3:16 ……….by revelation Gal 1:12 or …………. by The Holy Spirit 2Pe 1:21

This revelation was given to John, to write …possibly some 50 years after Christ was taken up.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

At the end of the book of John, it tells us who the author of this book is. It tells us that the "one whom Jesus loved" was the one who wrote the book of John. See John 21:20-24.
"Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them—the one who also had leaned back on His chest at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who is betraying You?” So Peter, upon seeing him, said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this account went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying about these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."
So, we know that whoever was known to be the one whom Jesus loved the most was the author of the book of John.
Now if we look through the book of John it mentions "the one whom Jesus loved" several times. The first time this phrase is used was with Lazurus when he was sick and about to die. It says, "Now a certain man was sick: Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. And it was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. So, the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
Then, when Lazurus died, it says in John 11:35-36 that Jesus wept and that the Jews were so amazed that they said, "See how He loved him!" It is even said with an exclamation mark to show how much the Jews stressed this point. Jesus loved Lazarus a lot.
Then a little further on in John 13:23, we see the disciple whom Jesus loved again. In this text, it does not mention any names but one of the disciples is leaning on Jesus' bosom. This disciple was loved by Jesus. "Lying back on Jesus’ chest was one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved". This person who leaned on Jesus' breast is confirmed to be the author of the book of John as previously mentioned in John 21:20-24.

There are other verses too that mention the author of the book of John. That is, "the one that Jesus loved." There is John 19:26, John 20:2-8 and John 21:7.

My question is, how do we know that it was John who wrote this book when if we read it, it says that it is Lazurus?

Not possible, the Book of Revelation would then be considered pseudepigraphal.
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Blessings

​

 

[The Liturgist]

There is a belief floating around out there that John was in fact Lazarus. Carrying the story further, after the crucifixion John was entrusted with the care of Mary. She went with him to Ephesus. Rather than being executed there by the Romans, he was exiled to Patmos. The reason was that the Romans had heard stories that he had returned from the dead, and that the woman he was seen with had given birth to "a god". The superstitious Romans would rather exile him than crucify him to prevent stirring up the wrath of some unknown god.

Intriguing, but there are some potential problems, since we know St. John the Theologian was the brother of St. James the Great, and it also seems likely that the adoption of him by our most glorious lady Theotokos was mutually beneficial as he was the youngest of the disciples. Lazarus is depicted in our Orthodox icons as elderly. I would have to be convinced that Lazarus was St. John the younger brother of St. James since otherwise it would be implausible. But then we would have the anomaly of the fact that we have Lazarus Saturday, where the Orthodox liturgy and those of the other ancient churchss as far as I can tell does not suggest a co-identity with St. John.

However, the Lazarus story would pack a compelling emotional punch if Lazarus were a cipher for St. John, since it would mean he died and was resurrected from an illness in adolescence, and indeed in the first century a young man such as St. John could be cut down by food poisoning, wound infection, or many other things. For instance, the very tragic story of the death of the previously healthy 14 year old son of President Calvin Coolidge from a blister that resulted from playing tennis, which tragically became infected, and before penicillin emerged that was quite deadly. And the youngest of the disciples falling ill in such a way and dying would provide a compelling emotional context to the grief of our Lord and an even stronger motivation for his resurrection of Lazarus.

So there are reasons for finding this narrative appealing, but it would have to integrate all existing Orthodox doctrine concerning St. John in order to be so appealing.

 

[The Liturgist]

Its John.

Indeed. The only possible way it could be Lazarus would be under the scenario outlined by our pious Orthodox friend @HTacianas , in which St. John and St. Lazarus were the same person, which is something I have not come across in tradition, but which is potentially possible as a hypothetical theologoumemnon. But this would be a scenario of both/and rather than the exclusive either/or which I believe was proposed by the OP.

 

[1Tonne]

Do you hve any evidence that would suggest Lazarus was present at the supper?

I thought that this was explained in the first post.
In John 21:20-24 it says that the one whom Jesus loved, was the author of the book of John and also the disciple who leaned on Jesus' breast. If Lazurus is the one whom Jesus loved, as stated in John 11:3, and also the Jews said it in John 11:35, then Lazurus must have been leaning on Jesus's breast at the supper.

There is a belief floating around out there that John was in fact Lazarus. Carrying the story further, after the crucifixion John was entrusted with the care of Mary. She went with him to Ephesus. Rather than being executed there by the Romans, he was exiled to Patmos. The reason was that the Romans had heard stories that he had returned from the dead, and that the woman he was seen with had given birth to "a god". The superstitious Romans would rather exile him than crucify him to prevent stirring up the wrath of some unknown god.

This would make sense.

This revelation was given to John, to write …possibly some 50 years after Christ was taken up.

Do we simply presume that John is the writer simply because some time in the early second century the name John was given to the book?
So, the question to you, and also others, what proof is there that John was the original writer?

We have evidence within the text that the original writer was Lazurus. Now I can accept that Lazurus and John are the same person as stated by HTacianas

So there are reasons for finding this narrative appealing, but it would have to integrate all existing Orthodox doctrine concerning St. John in order to be so appealing.

Maybe he is St John. Or he is not. Maybe Lazurus chose to use his second name or a pseudonym to hide his identity from the chief priests simply because of his testimony that he had been raised from the dead (See John 12:10) and also for the fact that he was now looking after Jesus' mother.
I do not think in this scenario where Lazurus wrote the Gospel of John, that Lazurus needs to be the disciple, John. They can be two separate people. It looks more that they are not the same person unless St John's sister was Mary, the one who anointed the Lord with ointment.
"Now a certain man was sick: Lazarus of Bethany, .....And it was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. So, the sisters sent word to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick." John 11:3

 

[The Liturgist]

We have evidence within the text that the original writer was Lazurus

I fear not; rather, we have at most an intriguing potential for an hypothesis, which is somewhat more than mere speculation but much less than evidence to support a theory.

What is more, even if this idea can be advanced to the point of being a hypothesis entirely devoid of conflict with the very well established parameters of ecclesiastical history, it will likely remain a hypothesis as it seems unlikely that any basis could be found on which to reliably test it.

However I would also note that this is no cause for despair, because the identity of the authors of the four Gospels is not of extreme doctrinal importance, in contrast to issues such as faith in the Resurrection and the Holy Trinity.

 

[1Tonne]

I fear not; rather, we have at most an intriguing potential for an hypothesis, which is somewhat more than mere speculation but much less than evidence to support a theory.

What is more, even if this idea can be advanced to the point of being a hypothesis entirely devoid of conflict with the very well established parameters of ecclesiastical history, it will likely remain a hypothesis as it seems unlikely that any basis could be found on which to reliably test it.

However I would also note that this is no cause for despair, because the identity of the authors of the four Gospels is not of extreme doctrinal importance, in contrast to issues such as faith in the Resurrection and the Holy Trinity.

I agree with all your statements there. Though, I would say that there is evidence pointing to Lazurus. Though it is not 100% compelling evidence.

 

[1Tonne]

One point that I have had said to me was the text is written in 3rd person. So, the question could be asked "Why did Lazurus write in this way"?

Maybe he spoke in the third person so that whoever read the text would not come after him. After all, the chief priests wanted him dead.
He still identifies the actual author in the last few verses of John. Albeit, he does this in a very secretive way that most would not have noticed. He may have written like this so that he would only be identified by those who knew him.

 

[Andrewn]

There is a belief floating around out there that John was in fact Lazarus. Carrying the story further, after the crucifixion John was entrusted with the care of Mary. She went with him to Ephesus.

In Fr. John Behr's new book, he attributes John's Gospel to John the Elder/Theologian, who was a disciple of Christ and was distinct from John, son of Zebedee.

John the Theologian and his Paschal Gospel

2020.05.09 | John Behr. John the Theologian and his Paschal Gospel: A Prologue to Theology. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2019. ISBN: 978-0-19-883753-4. Review by Jonathan Rowlands, St. Mellitus…

rbecs.org

My question is, how do we know that it was John who wrote this book when if we read it, the evidence says it was Lazurus?

John the Elder is a mysterious figure, if distinct from John BarZebedee, and it is conceivable that he may be Lazarus. After all, Lazarus had a house in nearby Bethany where he could take the Virgin Mary whereas BarZebedee did not. The following is from Wikipedia:

"According to Eastern Orthodox Church tradition, sometime after the Resurrection of Christ, Lazarus was forced to flee Judea because of rumoured plots on his life and came to Cyprus. There he was appointed by Barnabas and Paul the Apostle as the first bishop of Kition (present-day Larnaka). He lived there for thirty more years,[45] and on his death was buried there for the second and last time.[46]"

 

[1Tonne]

I have heard from some people that, if the early church gave a wrong name to the Gospel, then God's word is compromised. If it is a mistake, then that is like saying that God cannot keep and preserve His Word throughout time. So, they believe the author can't be Lazarus simply for that reason.

I think if the assigned author is incorrect, it does not matter. It does not compromise the original text in any way. The authors were not part of the text. The assigned names were given sometime afterwards in the mid-second century.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[The Liturgist]

In Fr. John Behr's new book, he attributes John's Gospel to John the Elder/Theologian, who was a disciple of Christ and was distinct from John, son of Zebedee.

This is an interesting point.

It is possible that St. John the Beloved Disciple is not St. John the Son of Zebedee, the brother of St. James the Great, however it is very unlikely that St. John the Beloved Disciple is not St. John the Theologian, also known in Anglican circles as St. John the Divine (for Anglicans use the word Divine in a manner loosely synonyous with the Orthodox use of the word “Theologian”), but its unlikely that St. John the Divine was anyone else, since whoever wrote the Gospel was with our Lord, and by cues within the Gospel can be deduced to be the youngest of the Apostles, being young enough to be reasonably adopted by the Theotokos, and this would explain why he lived so much longer than the other Apostles and was the only one to not be brutally martyred by the Roman Empire or various barbarians (it was barbarians who flayed St. Bartholomew, which makes sense since such an act would be barbaric even if committed by the Romans, but usually, with the exception of a few of the more sadistic and depraved emperors, such as Caligula, who appears to have been ambivalent towards Christianity and was likely mentally ill or suffering, as has been argued, from psychosis from acute lead poisoning, but this does not justify his depraved homicidal behavior since if he had lead poisoning, most Romans probably had it, but even the more fearsome Roman generals look saintly in comparison to the nightmarish person of Caligula) and it was a Hindu rajah who killed St. Thomas the Apostle with a javelin.

 

[DragonFox91]

There's more to the story than 'one day the church decided to say John wrote it.' The first time it's referred to is 'John's Gospel.' These writers expected the Gospel they were referring to, their audience to recognize it's John's. It's not hundreds of years later some conspiracy in a dark & locked room a group of church leaders decided John should be credited.

 

[1Tonne]

These writers expected the Gospel they were referring to, their audience to recognize it's John's.

How would they recognise it was John when the internal evidence points to Lazurus? Unless Lazurus and John are the same person.
If a letter turns up at a church and it is unnamed, then it could have been nearly any of the 12 disciples. Or it could have been a disciple who followed Jesus around who was not one of the 12 disciples. We do not know.

 

[ViaCrucis]

From a purely objective stand point, going by the internal evidence of the text of the Gospels alone, we have no idea who wrote any of the Four Gospels.

But from as early as anyone started talking about their authorship the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have been attached to these four Gospels. Papias is our earliest witness (c. 100 AD) that the Gospel of Matthew was written by St. Matthew the Apostle, first penning the Lord's sayings in Aramaic. Papias also tells us that St. Mark wrote Mark, relaying what Peter had told him.

By the mid-2nd century St. Justin refers to the "memoirs of the Apostles", and this is agreed upon as a reference to the Gospels, thus ascribing to them apostolic authorship. The Muratorian Fragment, the earliest list of New Testament books, mentions the author of the Gospel of Luke as St. Luke the Physician, the campanion of Paul (Luke-Acts was certainly written by one of Paul's missionary companions, as the author of Acts uses "we" on several occasions speaking as someone who was there with Paul). And identifies the Gospel of John as written by John, the Lord's disciple.

These attestations take it for granted that these Gospel texts had been circulating under these names for sometime, it's how they had been received into the Church, were read out loud in the Church.

It's also not altogether clear when the Gospels were written, the Synoptics could have been written as early as ~60 AD or as late as around ~90 AD. The Gospel of John, generally, has been dated to between 80-100 AD. But given the early attestations from the sub-apostolic fathers, these were in wide circulation from an incredibly early point in the history of the Church, already being received and treated as Holy Scripture, such as we see in the Epistle of Barnabas (100~130 AD) uses the expression "as it is written" before quoting the Gospel of Matthew; an expression which suggests Scriptural authority.

So we can't know the authorship of any of the Gospels. But these four names have been attached to them from the earliest times of the Church. I can think of little to no good reason to refer to the authors as anything other than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; whether this is indeed true; or at the very least what has been passed down to us from ancient times.

I don't know if St. John the Apostle wrote the Gospel of John, but I see no reason to suggest a different person. So that gives me two choices: The Gospel of John was written by St. John himself, or the author is completely anonymous and unknown. Either way, I'm going to refer to the author of John as John.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1Tonne]

From a purely objective stand point, going by the internal evidence of the text of the Gospels alone, we have no idea who wrote any of the Four Gospels.

The evidence you gave was external evidence. So, outside the text. The internal evidence comes from what is written in the text. The author says that the person who wrote this text is "The one whom Jesus loves the most". Then if we look back through the text, it says who Jesus loved the most in John 11:13 and 11:35-36. This is internal evidence.

 

[The Liturgist]

The evidence you gave was external evidence. So, outside the text. The internal evidence comes from what is written in the text. The author says that the person who wrote this text is "The one whom Jesus loves the most". Then if we look back through the text, it says who Jesus loved the most in John 11:13 and 11:35-36. This is internal evidence.

The only possible way that it is Lazarus is that if Lazarus is another name for St. John the Beloved Disciple, also known as St. John the Theologian, as @HTacianas mentioned.