John 10:26

[cygnusx1]

And yet, we are compared to "fields". Those who "hold fast and bear frout with perseverance", are called "good soil"; but those who believe for a while and then fall away (from temptation/persecution/affliction), are called "bad soil". That both soils were tilled the SAME, is undeniable in Heb6:7-8; it is the FRUIT that determines either the blessing or the curse.

"The ground that drinks the rain and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is tilled, receives a blessing from God. But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is ...cursed and BURNED."

Right?

Matt 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up

 

[A Brother In Christ]

And yet, we are compared to "fields". Those who "hold fast and bear frout with perseverance", are called "good soil"; but those who believe for a while and then fall away (from temptation/persecution/affliction), are called "bad soil". That both soils were tilled the SAME, is undeniable in Heb6:7-8; it is the FRUIT that determines either the blessing or the curse.

"The ground that drinks the rain and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is tilled, receives a blessing from God. But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is ...cursed and BURNED."

Right?

1 cor 3:3 For ye are carnal .....

1 cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire...

OSAS...

 

[Ben johnson]

1 cor 3:3 For ye are carnal .....

1 cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire...

OSAS...

"Carnally-saved". "Sinning-BODY, but saved-SOUL". Antinomianism.

You have been shown citations of Scriptures, such as Eph5:5-6:
"This we know with certainty, that no immoral nor impure man, nor covetous nor idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words --- it is on account of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

And 1Jn3:5-10:
"You know that He appeared to take away sins --- in Him there is no sin at all. No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him, and he CANNOT sin because he is born of God. By this the chilodren of God and the children of the devil are exposed; the one who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

And yet you assert that 1Cor3 (the only passage you find that seems to support "practicing-sin-saved") --- allows "carnal-salvation". It does not; it cannot.

Romans 6 says "you are slaves to the one you obey --- EITHER sin, resulting in death, OR obedience resulting in righteousness (slaves to God)."

You cannot deny any of these things, ABIC. Will you accept them?

 

[cygnusx1]

"Carnally-saved". "Sinning-BODY, but saved-SOUL". Antinomianism.

You have been shown citations of Scriptures, such as Eph5:5-6:
"This we know with certainty, that no immoral nor impure man, nor covetous nor idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words --- it is on account of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

And 1Jn3:5-10:
"You know that He appeared to take away sins --- in Him there is no sin at all. No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him, and he CANNOT sin because he is born of God. By this the chilodren of God and the children of the devil are exposed; the one who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

And yet you assert that 1Cor3 (the only passage you find that seems to support "practicing-sin-saved") --- allows "carnal-salvation". It does not; it cannot.

Romans 6 says "you are slaves to the one you obey --- EITHER sin, resulting in death, OR obedience resulting in righteousness (slaves to God)."

You cannot deny any of these things, ABIC. Will you accept them?

ben try making a distinction between those who "practice sin " Liars , murderers , and adulterers etc and those who may "fall into a sin" .......... the scriptures are clear salvation FROM sin , and that doesn't mean sinless perfectionism either ......... we sin every day , but not the same way as unregenerate man sins ..... the elect bemoan and find sin a real burden , something that needs dealing with every day , and something we will have to fight with till we die or until the Lord returns ........

The scriptures you have quoted should not be used to bash the other scriptures ....... there is really no disagreement.

1 cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

"Carnally-saved". "Sinning-BODY, but saved-SOUL". Antinomianism.

You have been shown citations of Scriptures, such as Eph5:5-6:
"This we know with certainty, that no immoral nor impure man, nor covetous nor idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words --- it is on account of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

And 1Jn3:5-10:
"You know that He appeared to take away sins --- in Him there is no sin at all. No one who abides in Him sins, no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him, and he CANNOT sin because he is born of God. By this the chilodren of God and the children of the devil are exposed; the one who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

And yet you assert that 1Cor3 (the only passage you find that seems to support "practicing-sin-saved") --- allows "carnal-salvation". It does not; it cannot.

Romans 6 says "you are slaves to the one you obey --- EITHER sin, resulting in death, OR obedience resulting in righteousness (slaves to God)."

You cannot deny any of these things, ABIC. Will you accept them?

If in the body of Christ.... God died for his sin.... thus romans 4:8

but try to explain 1 cor 3 in context with your way of thinking ben

 

[A Brother In Christ]

If in the body of Christ.... God died for his sin thus does not count it.... thus romans 4:8 since he an ungodly man believed ro 4:5

but try to explain 1 cor 3 in context with your way of thinking ben

 

[cygnusx1]

Romans 6 says "you are slaves to the one you obey --- EITHER sin, resulting in death, OR obedience resulting in righteousness (slaves to God)."


true , but this is speaking ultimately ........ consider that guy who was excomminicated in Corinth for a horrible sin , he never did lose his salvation , but he did fall into a aweful sin .

also consider the general standard of behaviour at Corinth , the Church are rebuked for a string of offences , yet Paul calls them Saints!!!

 

[Ben johnson]

ben try making a distinction between those who "practice sin " Liars , murderers , and adulterers etc and those who may "fall into a sin" .......... the scriptures are clear salvation FROM sin , and that doesn't mean sinless perfectionism either ......... we sin every day , but not the same way as unregenerate man sins .....

Exactly that, Cygnus. The saved sin OCCASIONALLY; but dwell in repentance and in fellowship with Him.

The unsaved sin CONTINUALLY, counting on God's patience and forgiveness to "save them".

"Do you think you will escape the judgment of God, when you DO the very thing you condemn? Do you think lightly of the riches of God's patience and kindness and forbearance, not knowing that God's patience and kindness are MEANT to lead you to repentance? But YOU --- by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- when God will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (practice sin), wrath and indignation." Rom2:3-8 Hmmm --- that "reeks" of personal responsibility, and "fits" predestination not at all.

If in the body of Christ.... God died for his sin thus does not count it.... thus romans 4:8 since he an ungodly man believed ro 4:5

but try to explain 1 cor 3 in context with your way of thinking ben

There is requirement to CHANGE. There are those who think that 1Cor5:5 means "die physically BECAUSE of immorality, but be saved spiritually" --- this conflicts the essence of salvation; one who dies IMMORAL, cannot go to Heaven. Scripture interprets Scripture --- thus, 1Cor5:5 connects to 1Tim1:20 --- "delivered-satan-destruction-flesh", means "taught-not-to-blaspheme"; in other words, "that they learn to REPENT."

...for "unless we repent, we WILL perish!" Lk13:3

Each verse presents a Scriptural absolute; one cannot be violated by another. They all harmonize.

THUS --- "saved yet so as through fire", connects to 1Pet1:7 --- "fire of trials" tests our works; if they are "burned up", we suffer loss; and we are TAUGHT to do BETTER works, so that the fire of trials REFINES us and aims us towards salvation!

If ten passages say "cannot be practicing-sin-saved", then the one passage (1Cor3:12-15) must harmonize.

The scriptures you have quoted should not be used to bash the other scriptures ....... there is really no disagreement.

Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit; no bad tree produces good. Therefore you will KNOW them by their fruits!" (Matt7) What is being proposed by mis-understanding 1Cor3:12-15, is that "bad-fruits CAN accompany the saved".

Paul forbids that understanding in 1Cor6:9-11. Paul spells out the "good fruits" and "bad fruits" in Gal5; and plainly says: "Those who PRACTICE such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God! BUT --- those who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires."

Perfect harmony with Romans 8 (the solution to the "war between the new regenerated nature, and the old sinful nature) --- if BY THE SPIRIT (His power, not ours, but our CHOICE) we are putting to death the things of the flesh, we will LIVE.

To say that "we can practice sin but still be saved spiritually and go to Heaven", makes Paul a liar; it makes Jesus a liar; it opposes the nature and essence of salvation, "dead to sin and alive in Christ, enslaved EITHER to sin OR to God" Rm6.

I mean no offense nor disrespect; I am speaking boldly here, because Scripture is clear and undeniable.

Can anyone deny these things?

 

[cygnusx1]

Exactly that, Cygnus. The saved sin OCCASIONALLY; but dwell in repentance and in fellowship with Him.

The unsaved sin CONTINUALLY, counting on God's patience and forgiveness to "save them".

"Do you think you will escape the judgment of God, when you DO the very thing you condemn? Do you think lightly of the riches of God's patience and kindness and forbearance, not knowing that God's patience and kindness are MEANT to lead you to repentance? But YOU --- by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- when God will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (practice sin), wrath and indignation." Rom2:3-8 Hmmm --- that "reeks" of personal responsibility, and "fits" predestination not at all.
There is requirement to CHANGE. There are those who think that 1Cor5:5 means "die physically BECAUSE of immorality, but be saved spiritually" --- this conflicts the essence of salvation; one who dies IMMORAL, cannot go to Heaven. Scripture interprets Scripture --- thus, 1Cor5:5 connects to 1Tim1:20 --- "delivered-satan-destruction-flesh", means "taught-not-to-blaspheme"; in other words, "that they learn to REPENT."

...for "unless we repent, we WILL perish!" Lk13:3

Each verse presents a Scriptural absolute; one cannot be violated by another. They all harmonize.

THUS --- "saved yet so as through fire", connects to 1Pet1:7 --- "fire of trials" tests our works; if they are "burned up", we suffer loss; and we are TAUGHT to do BETTER works, so that the fire of trials REFINES us and aims us towards salvation!

If ten passages say "cannot be practicing-sin-saved", then the one passage (1Cor3:12-15) must harmonize.
Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit; no bad tree produces good. Therefore you will KNOW them by their fruits!" (Matt7) What is being proposed by mis-understanding 1Cor3:12-15, is that "bad-fruits CAN accompany the saved".

Paul forbids that understanding in 1Cor6:9-11. Paul spells out the "good fruits" and "bad fruits" in Gal5; and plainly says: "Those who PRACTICE such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God! BUT --- those who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires."

Perfect harmony with Romans 8 (the solution to the "war between the new regenerated nature, and the old sinful nature) --- if BY THE SPIRIT (His power, not ours, but our CHOICE) we are putting to death the things of the flesh, we will LIVE.

To say that "we can practice sin but still be saved spiritually and go to Heaven", makes Paul a liar; it makes Jesus a liar; it opposes the nature and essence of salvation, "dead to sin and alive in Christ, enslaved EITHER to sin OR to God" Rm6.

I mean no offense nor disrespect; I am speaking boldly here, because Scripture is clear and undeniable.

Can anyone deny these things?

Ben , much of what you say I agree with .......... I think you will find I have very similar views on salvation from sin as you do , I don't believe in the trite idea of OSAS .......... as you correctly point out , that leads directly into antinomianism .

It also leads to HYPER FATALISM!!!!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Exactly that, Cygnus. The saved sin OCCASIONALLY; but dwell in repentance and in fellowship with Him.

The unsaved sin CONTINUALLY, counting on God's patience and forgiveness to "save them".

so you think these corinthians became unsaved....or not...

"Do you think you will escape the judgment of God, when you DO the very thing you condemn? Do you think lightly of the riches of God's patience and kindness and forbearance, not knowing that God's patience and kindness are MEANT to lead you to repentance?

Did God work on the cross pay for all sins or not.....

But YOU --- by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God --- when God will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (practice sin), wrath and indignation." Rom2:3-8 Hmmm --- that "reeks" of personal responsibility, and "fits" predestination not at all.
There is requirement to CHANGE. There are those who think that 1Cor5:5 means "die physically BECAUSE of immorality, but be saved spiritually" --- this conflicts the essence of salvation; one who dies IMMORAL, cannot go to Heaven.

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the [self] righteous, but sinners.

Scripture interprets Scripture --- thus, 1Cor5:5 connects to 1Tim1:20 --- "delivered-satan-destruction-flesh", means "taught-not-to-blaspheme"; in other words, "that they learn to REPENT."

...for "unless we repent, we WILL perish!" Lk13:3

Each verse presents a Scriptural absolute; one cannot be violated by another. They all harmonize.

THUS --- "saved yet so as through fire", connects to 1Pet1:7 --- "fire of trials" tests our works; if they are "burned up", we suffer loss; and we are TAUGHT to do BETTER works, so that the fire of trials REFINES us and aims us towards salvation!

If ten passages say "cannot be practicing-sin-saved", then the one passage (1Cor3:12-15) must harmonize.
Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit; no bad tree produces good. Therefore you will KNOW them by their fruits!" (Matt7) What is being proposed by mis-understanding 1Cor3:12-15, is that "bad-fruits CAN accompany the saved".

Can a tree be baron due to frost/hail/lack of water??

producing nethier bad or good fruit...?

Paul forbids that understanding in 1Cor6:9-11. Paul spells out the "good fruits" and "bad fruits" in Gal5; and plainly says: "Those who PRACTICE such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God! BUT --- those who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires."

Perfect harmony with Romans 8 (the solution to the "war between the new regenerated nature, and the old sinful nature) --- if BY THE SPIRIT (His power, not ours, but our CHOICE) we are putting to death the things of the flesh, we will LIVE.

To say that "we can practice sin but still be saved spiritually and go to Heaven", makes Paul a liar; it makes Jesus a liar; it opposes the nature and essence of salvation, "dead to sin and alive in Christ, enslaved EITHER to sin OR to God" Rm6.

I mean no offense nor disrespect; I am speaking boldly here, because Scripture is clear and undeniable.

Can anyone deny these things?

I grow tired of this

 

[Ben johnson]

I grow tired of this

Because, with respect ABIC, you cannot answer those verses.

so you think these corinthians became unsaved....or not...

The ones in ch5? Who were "more immoral even than the HEATHENS"? They absolutely were unsaved.

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the [self] righteous, but sinners.

Call then to WHAT, ABIC? He called them to salvation, to sanctification, to justification, to regeneration --- to righteousness. That they will "be sinners no more".

Can a tree be barren due to frost/hail/lack of water??

producing neither bad or good fruit...?

Your own passage says "one plants, another waters, but GOD causes growth --- "growth" is the opposite of "barren", ABIC. Jesus says "you will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS". Paul lists fruits of the Spirit (the saved), and fruits of the flesh (unsaved). One cannot have "no-fruits"...

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, which is sinfulness. No one who abides in sin, abides in God. No one who does not abide in God shall enter Heaven. With respect, there is no way around this...

 

[cygnusx1]

so Paul was writing to the saints at Corinth , many who were unsaved , ben sinless perfection does not make one a saint!

 

[Philip dT]

John 10:25-27:

Here we have to do with the unbelief of Israel. In this passage, the unbelief is seen as Israel’s own fault. Verse 25 says: “I told you and you did not believe.” Verse 26 does not point to the predestination of unbelief here, but to the fact that unbelief is a characteristic or mark of those who are not Jesus’ sheep. In verse 27, He says that his sheep hear his voice, are known by Jesus, and they follow him. Implicitly, Jesus says that the Jews do not hear, are not being known by Jesus, and they do not follow Him. It does not say that Jesus has chosen beforehand that they must not be his sheep, but merely that they are not his sheep, and that they do not listen to his voice, etc. The question can now be asked: why are they not his sheep and why do they not listen and follow? This passage does not say specifically. The only thing that can be derived from the text, are these given characteristics of the unbelieving Jews. The terms “do not believe,” “not my sheep,” “not hear,” “not know” and “not follow” are actually synonyms. The one says the same as the other, only in a different way.
This passage therefore says nothing about the reason or ground as to why some are his sheep and others are not.

 

[Van]

Oh I think it says quite a lot about why folks are not His sheep, and about the characteristics of folks termed "of My sheep" before they become part of the flock by entering through the door which is Christ. The have heard and learned from the Father, they have the Word of God abiding in them, they are seeking the righteousness of God. They believe in God and worship God. They believe in the One who sent the Christ.

Note in Acts, when the gospel is presented to Jews, who believe in God, the gospel presentation begins with Christ. But when the gospel is presented to Gentiles, the message begins with teaching about God from scripture. Your unknown God is...revealed in scripture.

 

[Philip dT]

Oh I think it says quite a lot about why folks are not His sheep, and about the characteristics of folks termed "of My sheep" before they become part of the flock by entering through the door which is Christ. The have heard and learned from the Father, they have the Word of God abiding in them, they are seeking the righteousness of God. They believe in God and worship God. They believe in the One who sent the Christ.

Note in Acts, when the gospel is presented to Jews, who believe in God, the gospel presentation begins with Christ. But when the gospel is presented to Gentiles, the message begins with teaching about God from scripture. Your unknown God is...revealed in scripture.

Van, I agree with your position, I just mean that this specific passage does not say the reason or ground as to why some are his sheep (/ hear / believe) and others not. It does not say that they were "pre-determined to be like that" either. So, what I mean by implication is that this Scripture portion cannot be used in favour of Calvinism.

 

[Van]

You are right, I am drawing an inference from context.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Because, with respect ABIC, you cannot answer those verses.

right you keep believing that....

The ones in ch5? Who were "more immoral even than the HEATHENS"? They absolutely were unsaved.

1 cor 1:2 written to the church of God ..to them sanctified in Christ Jesus

1 cor 16:22 If any man [phileo] love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be set aside. 23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

wait ben theolgy is.... to hell with you

see the difference

Call then to WHAT, ABIC? He called them to salvation, to sanctification, to justification, to regeneration --- to righteousness. That they will "be sinners no more".

verse... mine....1 john 1:8-10we will not be perfect till his coming 1 thes 5:23-24

Your own passage says "one plants, another waters, but GOD causes growth --- "growth" is the opposite of "barren", ABIC. Jesus says "you will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS". Paul lists fruits of the Spirit (the saved), and fruits of the flesh (unsaved). One cannot have "no-fruits"...

So on this earth weather does not barron a tree...hail, frost, 0 degrees wipes out crops...this is parable by abic

interptation when one sins unbelievers say where is there belief thus the believe put a stumbling stone before them thus no crop

barron for a season or so...

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, which is sinfulness. No one who abides in sin, abides in God. No one who does not abide in God shall enter Heaven. With respect, there is no way around this...

1 thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole Spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

who does this? me or God

both but in the end to go to heaven...God

eph 5:26 That He might sanctify and clease it with a the washing of water by the word 27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Ben johnson]

This passage therefore says nothing about the reason or ground as to why some are his sheep and others are not.

Perhaps; but verse 9 says to me that "anyone who BELIEVES, who enters through Me, BECOMES My sheep". This places "belief" as fully volitional, doesn't it?

So, what I mean by implication is that this Scripture portion cannot be used in favour of Calvinism.

Agree. Jn10:9 is yet another verse where "all/anyone" (in this case, "tis") --- must be redefined to mean "only SOME of all TYPES".

Simplicity is direct --- if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved --- and shall go in and out and find pasture. "Become My sheep" is the only logical meaning.

Further, Calvinsts are asserting that Jesus is saying: "You don't believe in Me because you're not pre-chosen-sheep" --- and instead Jesus is only saying, "You don't believe that I'm the Messiah, because you're not My sheep".

If "my sheep" is anyone who BELIEVES (and no other inference can be made), then there is not one speck of "predestination" here...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I like Matt 18:12

If a sheep leaves the fold.... does the Good shepard give up on him....and send him to hell...

lets read the verse

Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninty and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray. 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninty and nine which went not astray.

wow!!

not sent to hell


put that together with Hebrews 12:3-11

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I like Matt 18:12

If a sheep leaves the fold.... does the Good shepard give up on him....and send him to hell...

lets read the verse

Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninty and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray. 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninty and nine which went not astray.

wow!!

not sent to hell


put that together with Hebrews 12:3-11

By the way this believer would have lived a miserable life outside of the fold.... but since still of the fold gladly reinstated once he died or ask forgiveness