Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

[Lulav]

did the promise come by law?

What promise are we speaking of here?

 

[Lulav]

Give me something to go on,why the corinthians,in light of what Paul said,and their spiritual condition,suddenly stopped eating unclean food?

If they ate idol food,and food with blood....hmmmmm

Yes, if they were eating meat sacrificed to idols and blood then they weren't following the edict from the Jerusalem council were they, so who was teaching them against this edict?

 

[Lulav]

You misinterpret Paul's writings to say that. You and Victor are pros at doing that! Paul himself never ate anything unclean, just like Peter. Remember, how Paul stated in the book of Acts that he was Pharisee, and was never accused by the Jews as promoting the doing away with the dietary laws. In fact the apostles in Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 verified the validity of the the Levitical dietary law dealing with blood. So then why would the laws dealing with unclean meats apply as well. Nothing had changed when it comes to blood or meats after the cross.

He was in fact accused many times of teaching against the Torah, that is why he was stoned so many times. That is why James urged him to 'prove' he was not going against the Torah or teaching others to do so by going to the temple for the Nazarite vows. Yet many of the believing Jews practically rioted because he was seen there, he had to be taken away by Roman soldiers to save his hide.

Just one example: Thou seest , brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe ; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


28.Crying out , Men of Israel, help : This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people (the Jews), and the law (the Torah), and this place (Jerusalem): and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

 

[martymonster]

Joel Osteen, the Evangelical Pastor of the largest Mega Church in North America, has exploded the popular Evangelical view that the dietary laws were done away with at the cross. He basically, takes the position that SDAs have had for over 100 years. You have to admire his courage for preaching this sermon in Houston, Texas, one of the most carnivorous cities in the North America.

Video link to unclean foods sermon:

YouTube - Joel Osteen on God's Food Laws

Yeah good one Osteen!

So we're reducing God to the big dietition in the sky now are We?

I don't suppose all those laws that He gave the Jews have any spiritual significence or anything.

I wonder what He would make of this verse then.

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 

[ARBITER01]

Funny things is, thanks to Noah, Abraham knew what was clean to eat and what wasn't. Did you miss that? Maybe you don't think those laws were passed on to Abraham through Noah's lineage. They kept it quiet. "Shush, don't anyone tell Abraham what God said to Noah."

No amount of scripture questions and what-if scenarios denies what was already decided for us by our Christian forefathers in acts 15.

 

[ARBITER01]

At odds, I guess you could say that if you choose to believe man over G-d and his son, then yes we are at odds. I believe G-d and what his son came and taught and those that are in accord with that teaching.

Sorry, but all of the writers of our NT agree since it was The Holy Spirit who inspired their writings. They are not looked upon as just men when all of them were born again. In fact, the whole doctrine and mystery of Christ flowed through one Christian, Paul, not Jesus.

That may come as a surprise, but it is true.

 

[BrightCandle]

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. [SIZE][/B]

Did you happen to note, that Peter hadn't eaten any unclean food up to that point in time, which several years after the death of Jesus. This proves that Peter was not told by Jesus that unclean meats were clean. Peter was slow of learning, but I doubt that he was that dense, when it comes to something so basic as what one eats!

 

[BrightCandle]

He was in fact accused many times of teaching against the Torah, that is why he was stoned so many times. That is why James urged him to 'prove' he was not going against the Torah or teaching others to do so by going to the temple for the Nazarite vows. Yet many of the believing Jews practically rioted because he was seen there, he had to be taken away by Roman soldiers to save his hide.

Just one example: Thou seest , brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe ; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


28.Crying out , Men of Israel, help : This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people (the Jews), and the law (the Torah), and this place (Jerusalem): and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Yes, of course Paul was accused of many things, but my point was that there is no record of the Jews saying Paul said that it was now OK to eat pork, or lobster, etc, etc. If Paul would have taught that, you can be sure the Jews would have clearly stated that in their accusations before the Roman leadership. But, they knew it wouldn't hold water, because Paul was a Pharisee.

 

[Der Alte]

Did you happen to note, that Peter hadn't eaten any unclean food up to that point in time, which several years after the death of Jesus. This proves that Peter was not told by Jesus that unclean meats were clean. Peter was slow of learning, but I doubt that he was that dense, when it comes to something so basis as what one eats!

The book of Acts has been most commonly dated to the second half of the first century. Norman Geisler dates it as early as between 60-62.[9] Donald Guthrie, who dates the book between 62-54[10], notes that the absence of any mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 would be unlikely if the book were written afterward. He also suggested that since the book does not mention the death of Paul, a central character in the final chapters, it was likely penned before his death.​

 

[Lulav]

What does him being a Pharisee have to do with it regarding the Romans? When he was brought before the council in Jerusalem, instead of answering their questions he did a very sneaky ploy, he turned them against each other to the point where the Pharisees let him go just to spit the Sadducees.

So are you saying you don't believe James? And all the elders who had heard of his teachings?

On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

When they saw him in the temple it started a riot. You can't have that many people saying that one is teaching a certain thing without it being true. The case was never really settled because Paul used his Roman citizenship to gain certain privileges.

There was a difference between The way and the Nazarenes, that is a difference most don't see.

 

[BrightCandle]

I'm pretty sure someone has pointed out to you that Genesis 2 records God's rest on the seventh day of creation, and not the sabbath that Jesus stated was "made for man" (Mark 2:27).

Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, in a chapter showing that God's rest remained a promise yet to attain for those who already had the sabbath. Ascribing an origin for the sabbath in deference to Scripture's record of it merely shows your committment to an error employed to avoid coming into God's rest, that we who have believed do enter.

Exodus 20: 8-11 quotes almost everything from Genesis 2. Compare the two together, there is no doubt that its the same day, the 7th day Sabbath.

Genesis 2:

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he resteda from all his work. 3And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:8-11

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[Der Alte]

Exodus 20: 8-11 quotes almost everything from Genesis 2. Compare the two together, there is no doubt that its the same day, the 7th day Sabbath.

Genesis 2:

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he resteda from all his work. 3And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:8-11

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exo 31:16-17
(16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

 

[Frogster]

Yes, if they were eating meat sacrificed to idols and blood then they weren't following the edict from the Jerusalem council were they, so who was teaching them against this edict?

Scripture,who else?
Read 1 Corinthians sis..eat all in the market,even if it was sacrifced to idol,which Corinth was known for.

 

[Frogster]

Yes, if they were eating meat sacrificed to idols and blood then they weren't following the edict from the Jerusalem council were they, so who was teaching them against this edict?

ok..I answered your question,but you did not answer this,from pages ago....LEV 12:1??

Do we keep this cleanliness law still?


Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.


Actually,do we keep all the OT laws.are we required to?
Do males have to be cut on the 8th day?
Do we not wear interwoven clothes?
Are we stoned for working on the Sabbath?
Are we..are we..?
oooops! there are lot more! Please advise.

 

[Frogster]

What does him being a Pharisee have to do with it regarding the Romans? When he was brought before the council in Jerusalem, instead of answering their questions he did a very sneaky ploy, he turned them against each other to the point where the Pharisees let him go just to spit the Sadducees.

Sneaky ploy! LOL! Like the Jews who kept trying to kill him were not sneaky!.Jesus would vanish from their midsts,would you say he was a coward?

Think about it..

Did Moses get beaten and endure what Paul did?

Think about it.

So are you saying you don't believe James? And all the elders who had heard of his teachings?



When they saw him in the temple it started a riot. You can't have that many people saying that one is teaching a certain thing without it being true. The case was never really settled because Paul used his Roman citizenship to gain certain privileges.

There was a difference between The way and the Nazarenes, that is a difference most don't see.

 

[marklbernard]

Pork is unclean. Jesus never ate it, nor the disciples. Even Joel Osteen, and Evangelical, says that they are scavengers and will eat almost anything, so why do you think that you should eat pork?

As a former chef I can tell you that modern pork does not suffer from the same ailments that previous generations of pork suffered from, infact modern pork can be cooked to medium, which was a no no even 5 years ago. JO is hardly the final authority on theological matters such as these. Understand that the Lord made it clear that what was unclean is no longer unclean, and Jesus Himself said that it was not that which went into a man that defiled Him, but that which came outof a man i.e. out of the heart

 

[marklbernard]

Did you happen to note, that Peter hadn't eaten any unclean food up to that point in time, which several years after the death of Jesus. This proves that Peter was not told by Jesus that unclean meats were clean. Peter was slow of learning, but I doubt that he was that dense, when it comes to something so basic as what one eats!

Please it wasn't until Acts 15 that they finally recognised that God wanted to reach out to the gentile, your arguments are running thn to the ground

 

[martymonster]

Did you happen to note, that Peter hadn't eaten any unclean food up to that point in time, which several years after the death of Jesus. This proves that Peter was not told by Jesus that unclean meats were clean. Peter was slow of learning, but I doubt that he was that dense, when it comes to something so basic as what one eats!

God doesn't care what you physically, it's what you eat spiritually that concerns Him.

Peter didn't eat clean and unclean foods because He completely missed what the point was of all the clean and unclean food laws was , and that is the spiritual meanings, just like most people today!

Don't forget that Paul had to rebuke Peter when He would not sit with the Christian gentiles because of what the Jews would think of Him.

Not everything that Peter rolled was spun gold, but that too, just like the clean and unclean food laws was put there for our admonition!

 

[KM Richards]

Sure you can eat all the things God said not to eat and still go to Heaven...but you're most likely going to go much sooner than you otherwise would have which is damaging to the Body of Christ as a whole when God's people die young.

What all the religious minded folks don't know is that God was giving mankind instructions on what not to eat because it is bad for the human body, which medical science is finding to be true in modern times.

God was trying to help mankind out...but the majority of mankind is too stupid to accept instructions from God in every area of their life...and so they demand pork roast, lobster, etc, etc

If you're gonna eat like that, then don't go crying to God when you get sick!

 

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav

Yes, if they were eating meat sacrificed to idols and blood then they weren't following the edict from the Jerusalem council were they, so who was teaching them against this edict?
​

Scripture,who else?
Read 1 Corinthians sis..eat all in the market,even if it was sacrifced to idol,which Corinth was known for.

Scripture is not a 'who'. James was the head of the congregation founded by his brother Jesus. He made an edict on what the gentiles were to do, he was the authority along with agreement of the other elders and of course the Holy Spirit.

Then if you say 'scripture' meaning that in 1 Cornithians you are being acquiescent that whoever wrote that ignored the edict from the council and also was teaching against what Jesus taught. So who do you follow?

Written after 1 Corinthians:

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write ; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest , even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein * Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth . 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught * Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication .


18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write ; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication , and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.