Joe, with no scientific proof makes Covid claims

Redwingfan9

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Indiana hasn't had the numbers Michigan has. And they have restrictions as well. Michigan also has about 3 million more people than Indiana and a lot of the rural coastal areas get a lot tourists or Michiganders with second homes.

What you are not addressing is how masks and mitigation has worked in other countries and not the US.
Remind me what country they've worked in outside of perhaps a totalitarian communist dictatorship like China, and even there their lockdowns haven't been fully effective. The masks clearly aren't working in Europe as numbers skyrocket everywhere despite mask mandates and a compliant, sheeple like population. Europe, as a whole, is in the exact same position as the United States with masks failing and mandates not producing the desired result.
 
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anna ~ grace

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I think everyone does this. Trump did this. A lot. Biden's doing it. Everyone does it, frankly. And, to be honest, when "science" can not actually tell us where this virus came from, exactly how it spreads, or what steps to take to stay safe vs. live semi-normally with one voice, a lot of folks are going to just trust what they see with their own eyes, and turn off the TV.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Remind me what country they've worked in outside of perhaps a totalitarian communist dictatorship like China, and even there their lockdowns haven't been fully effective. The masks clearly aren't working in Europe as numbers skyrocket everywhere despite mask mandates and a compliant, sheeple like population. Europe, as a whole, is in the exact same position as the United States with masks failing and mandates not producing the desired result.


Taiwan is not communist and neither is South Korea or New Zealand. Covid cases were going to rise, and soar. We were told they would. How bad they go up can be affected by mitigation.
Again, mitigation was to buy time, and minimize deaths until a vaccine could be developed and distributed and given.


Sweden did not do mitigation and now they say they were wrong.
Sweden to fast-track pandemic bill permitting wider shutdown

Long a Holdout From Covid-19 Restrictions, Sweden Ends Its Pandemic Experiment
 
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Redwingfan9

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Taiwan is not communist and neither is South Korea or New Zealand. Covid cases were going to rise, and soar. We were told they would. How bad they go up can be affected by mitigation.
Again, mitigation was to buy time, and minimize deaths until a vaccine could be developed and distributed and given.


Sweden did not do mitigation and now they say they were wrong.
Sweden to fast-track pandemic bill permitting wider shutdown

Long a Holdout From Covid-19 Restrictions, Sweden Ends Its Pandemic Experiment
New Zealand is an island that could ban overseas flights and stop the virus before it ever entered. Taiwan was able to do the same, same as South Korea. These are small countries that were able to shutdown foreign travel quickly.

As for Sweden, they should have stuck with what they were doing. The fact that their government panicked doesn't mean it was a bad strategy.

The US is getting tonthe point where the CDC is estimating as many as half of us have had the virus. They have long said 8-10x the number of people who have tested positive have actually had it. We're at 18 million positive cases, meaning 144-180 million Americans have had it. (Antibody tests are closer to 15% but those are notoriously bad tests and antibodies are unlikely to be the only evidence that someone has had the virus). All if this mitigation and were at neary half, in large measure because the majority of us are asymptomatic or have such mild symptoms we didn't bother getting tested. I had it and the only reason I got tested was because my employer wanted everyone to because someone was positive at the office. Otherwise, I and my family would have been one of the legion who had it but was so mild a case it wasn't worth the production to get tested.

This virus is not a serious one for those under 60. 90% of deaths are people over 60, 50% are over 80. Nearly everyone who dies has 2 or more comorbidities. It's more dangerous to live at a nursing home, where nearly half of deaths originate than it is to be anywhere else in society. People should be free to live their lives, grandma is an adult snd more than capable of making her own decisions about how to protect herself.
 
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FreeinChrist

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New Zealand is an island that could ban overseas flights and stop the virus before it ever entered. Taiwan was able to do the same, same as South Korea. These are small countries that were able to shutdown foreign travel quickly.

As for Sweden, they should have stuck with what they were doing. The fact that their government panicked doesn't mean it was a bad strategy.

New Zealand did it with many actions, and could totally eliminate flights.


Sweden's prime minister admits the country got its coronavirus strategy wrong

Sweden's prime minister has admitted that the country misjudged its response to the second coronavirus surge, as intensive-care units in the capital Stockholm become overwhelmed with patients.

Sweden recorded 8,088 deaths from all causes last month, the country's statistics agency announced on Monday. That was the country's second-highest number of monthly deaths on record, surpassed only by the country's worst month of the 1918 influenza pandemic......

"It is proof that it is a virus that we did not know about before and that behaves in a way many would not have thought."

Lofven acknowledged the government had made mistakes.​


As to Taiwan, it may be an island but has a lot of people on it. They controlled the border, but still had to have outside flights
How Taiwan’s COVID response became the world’s envy

What did this island of 23 million people do right? It has had 553 confirmed cases, with only seven deaths. Experts say closing borders early and tightly regulating travel have gone a long way toward fighting the virus. Other factors include rigorous contact tracing, technology-enforced quarantine and widespread mask wearing. Further, Taiwan’s deadly experience with SARS has scared people into compliance.....

“Taiwan is the only major country that has so far been able to keep community transmission of Covid eliminated,” said Peter Collignon, an infectious disease physician and professor at the Australian National University Medical School. Taiwan “probably had the best result around the world,” he said, and it’s “even more impressive” for an economy with a population about the same size as Australia’s, with many people living close to one another in apartments....


“Taiwan’s continual success is due to strict enforcement of border control,” says Jason Wang, director of Stanford University’s Center for Policy, Outcomes and Prevention. That includes symptom-based surveillance before travelers board flights and digital fence tracking via cellular signals to ensure their compliance with a 14-day quarantine, he said.


"symptom-based surveillance before travelers board flights and digital fence tracking via cellular signals to ensure their compliance with a 14-day quarantine," - that was key, along with masks and other mitgation.


The US could have done more.


The US is getting tonthe point where the CDC is estimating as many as half of us have had the virus. They have long said 8-10x the number of people who have tested positive have actually had it. We're at 18 million positive cases, meaning 144-180 million Americans have had it. (Antibody tests are closer to 15% but those are notoriously bad tests and antibodies are unlikely to be the only evidence that someone has had the virus). All if this mitigation and were at neary half, in large measure because the majority of us are asymptomatic or have such mild symptoms we didn't bother getting tested. I had it and the only reason I got tested was because my employer wanted everyone to because someone was positive at the office. Otherwise, I and my family would have been one of the legion who had it but was so mild a case it wasn't worth the production to get tested.

This virus is not a serious one for those under 60. 90% of deaths are people over 60, 50% are over 80. Nearly everyone who dies has 2 or more comorbidities. It's more dangerous to live at a nursing home, where nearly half of deaths originate than it is to be anywhere else in society. People should be free to live their lives, grandma is an adult snd more than capable of making her own decisions about how to protect herself.

hmm....I disagree.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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As for Sweden, they should have stuck with what they were doing. The fact that their government panicked doesn't mean it was a bad strategy.

That they had eight times the mortality rate per 100000 people of their neighbors Norway and Finland kind of means it was indeed “ a bad strategy “
 
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Redwingfan9

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That they had eight times the mortality rate per 100000 people of their neighbors Norway and Finland kind of means it was indeed “ a bad strategy “
When dealing with such small populations figures per 100k are almost meaningless. All it takes is a handful of deaths to make those figures look far worse than they really are.
 
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Albion

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How is saying “I believe by next Christmas we will be close to normal “ lying ?

You should know by now that, when it comes to a president or even a former vice-president, that kind of a comment Joe made counts as a lie. It wouldn't have counted...pre-Trump. But now it does, so get used to it.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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When dealing with such small populations figures per 100k are almost meaningless. All it takes is a handful of deaths to make those figures look far worse than they really are.

Ridiculous. That’s exactly why we have deaths / 100000 statistics so population sizes don’t matter.

Handful of deaths doesn’t make that number any worse in Sweden then it does in US exactly because they are counted per 100000 people.

Don’t you understand anything about statistics ?
 
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Redwingfan9

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Ridiculous. That’s exactly why we have deaths / 100000 statistics so population sizes don’t matter.

Handful of deaths doesn’t make that number any worse in Sweden then it does in US exactly because they are counted per 100000 people.

Don’t you understand anything about statistics ?
I understand statistics. When you have small populations their numbers per 100k can be skewed on the smallest outbreak. It's why North Dakota appears to be far worse than California, despite the opposite clearly being the case. There are statistics and then there's the truth.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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I understand statistics. When you have small populations their numbers per 100k can be skewed on the smallest outbreak.

We were talking about countries with millions of people and deaths per 100000 are used exactly so people wouldn’t think that Sweden only having 8000 dead is doing great while US has 300000+ cases so US is doing worse while ignoring that US has 33 times the population.

This example from these forums btw where some herd immunity hero brought Sweden up as glorious example of how to treat Covid.

Do feel free to tell how deaths / 100000 are “skewed” on national scale with “smallest outbreak”

If you are looking at smaller counties or whatnot you can have statistics deaths per 10000 or deaths per 1000 to use for comparison.

Whatever is sensible with population size.

I start to see how some issues seem hard to grasp for you.
 
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Redwingfan9

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We were talking about countries with millions of people and deaths per 100000 are used exactly so people wouldn’t think that Sweden only having 8000 dead is doing great while US has 300000+ cases so US is doing worse while ignoring that US has 33 times the population.

This example from these forums btw where some herd immunity hero brought Sweden up as glorious example of how to treat Covid.

Do feel free to tell how deaths / 100000 are “skewed” on national scale with “smallest outbreak”

If you are looking at smaller counties or whatnot you can have statistics deaths per 10000 or deaths per 1000 to use for comparison.

Whatever is sensible with population size.

I start to see how some issues seem hard to grasp for you.
That's just the point though, Sweden only has 10 million people. Michigan has a similar population and a grotesquely totalitarian Governor issuing edicts left and right. Michigan has 50% more Coronavirus deaths than Sweden despite the latter doing essentially nothing. We could isolate those two entities and obsess over total deaths and statistics per 100k. However, that statistic is far better suited for broader entites with much larger populations such as the EU and US.

Last I saw here in Michigan if we look at the per 100k number at a county level the counties with the highest numbers are small and rural. One or two cases skew the figures, we all know Wayne County has the biggest problem. That's a smaller scale version of the Sweden issue.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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We could isolate those two entities and obsess over total deaths and statistics per 100k. However, that statistic is far better suited for broader entites with much larger populations such as the EU and US.

And by obsess you mean accurately comparing them instead of going with “we all know” gut feeling ?

It is not hard formula. After pandemic is over you check how many deaths Sweden had per 100000 people and how many deaths Michigan had per 100000 people.

Then you can start to wonder why the numbers look like what they are.

Whatever Wayne county was some virus hotspot is meaningless.

As for comparing Sweden it makes more sense to compare it to it’s Nordic neighbors with similar healthcare who had much stricter enforced Covid19 measures and as mentioned around 8 times less casualties so far.
 
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Redwingfan9

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And by obsess you mean accurately comparing them instead of going with “we all know” gut feeling ?

It is not hard formula. After pandemic is over you check how many deaths Sweden had per 100000 people and how many deaths Michigan had per 100000 people.

Then you can start to wonder why the numbers look like what they are.

Whatever Wayne county was some virus hotspot is meaningless.

As for comparing Sweden it makes more sense to compare it to it’s Nordic neighbors with similar healthcare who had much stricter enforced Covid19 measures and as mentioned around 8 times less casualties so far.
If we want to play your game we can compare Michigan and Sweden and conclude lockdowns and business shutdowns didn't work. We could also look at other countries like Italy and Britain where they failed compared to Sweden.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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If we want to play your game we can compare Michigan and Sweden and conclude lockdowns and business shutdowns didn't work. We could also look at other countries like Italy and Britain where they failed compared to Sweden.

Brilliant, we can compare Sweden to Italy, Britain or US ?
Countries with far larger populations with vastly different cultures.

Or we can compare neighbors Sweden, Finland and Norway. All highly developed, educated social democracies with basically government funded healthcare having population between 5 - 10 million people.

Two of those countries had stricter rules and restrictions while one did not.

The one with herd immunity tactic failed and had 8 times the mortality rate of it’s neighbors and is now adding higher restrictions because of their earlier failed strategy.

What is so hard to understand in this ?
 
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Redwingfan9

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Brilliant, we can compare Sweden to Italy, Britain or US ?
Countries with far larger populations with vastly different cultures.

Or we can compare neighbors Sweden, Finland and Norway. All highly developed, educated social democracies with basically government funded healthcare having population between 5 - 10 million people.

Two of those countries had stricter rules and restrictions while one did not.

The one with herd immunity tactic failed and had 8 times the mortality rate of it’s neighbors and is now adding higher restrictions because of their earlier failed strategy.

What is so hard to understand in this ?
Sweden also has a massive underclass of Muslims, something Finland and Norway do not have.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Sweden also has a massive underclass of Muslims, something Finland and Norway do not have.

“Massive” underclass of Muslims around 8% with estimated 2/3 not actually practicing religion...

But sure it is bigger than Norway 3,3% Muslim and Finland around 2,5 %

Why is this is relevant ? You have something worth 5 percentage points of Muslim population to 8 times mortality rates of Sweden ?
 
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Redwingfan9

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“Massive” underclass of Muslims around 8% with estimated 2/3 not actually practicing religion...

But sure it is bigger than Norway 3,3% Muslim and Finland around 2,5 %

Why is this is relevant ? You have something worth 5 percentage points of Muslim population to 8 times mortality rates of Sweden ?
The media has reported that Covid deaths have disproportionately hit Muslim immigrants in Sweden.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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The media has reported that Covid deaths have disproportionately hit Muslim immigrants in Sweden.

Naturally the lowest income class that actually has to show up for physical work and can’t work remotely would be over presented. Makes sense those jobs are often filled with immigrants due to language and education requirements.

Those same jobs do exist in Norway and Finland as well although they are more often filled by natives.

COVID-19, of course, doesn’t care about your religion or country of origin but about your proximity to others.

Anything else ?
 
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