Joe, with no scientific proof makes Covid claims

[FreeinChrist]

When did Trump say it would be over by the summer of 2021 or by Christmas 2021?

It isn't like they have been saying the same thing. Biden stated "I believe..." in a measured way. That is not comparable to Trump's repeated claims it will "just disappear" or "it will be gone after the election" or stating this summer we 'turned the corner." See post #34. Trump's claims were clearly disagreed with and in error.

Considering that two vaccines are approved, that vaccinations have started, stating "I believe" we will be back to normal in another year, is reasonable.

 

[tulc]

(snip)
Where and when did Trump say it would be over in the summer of 2021?

Well...there are these times:
All of the times President Trump said Covid-19 will disappear

In his first speech after his hospitalization for Covid-19, President Donald Trump stood on a White House balcony on October 10 and made a grand declaration about the coronavirus: “It’s going to disappear. It is disappearing.”

His words might have sounded more dramatic had he not been saying the same thing for eight months.

tulc(hopes that helps)

 

[hislegacy]

When did Trump say it would be over by the summer of 2021 or by Christmas 2021?

Never

I believe it is possible in your zeal to defend joe, you are missing the number of posts and a couple of my replies that clearly show no one suggested Trump saying it would be over by summer of 21.

I believe it is possible in your zeal to defend joe, you might be missing my point showing two people saying they believe it will be over by a certain time frame. One is labeled a liar and the other is defended.

That is my point. Two people saying essentially the same thing. But being responded to very differently

 

[FreeinChrist]

Never

I believe it is possible in your zeal to defend joe, you are missing the number of posts and a couple of my replies that clearly show no one suggested Trump saying it would be over by summer of 21.

I believe it is possible in your zeal to defend joe, you might be missing my point showing two people saying they believe it will be over by a certain time frame. One is labeled a liar and the other is defended.

That is my point. Two people saying essentially the same thing. But being responded to very differently

I believe in your zeal to attack Joe and defend Trump, you missed all the times in the links provided in #34 that Trump did not present his claim as opinion, did not bother to say "I believe..." and has often repeated, at various times, that he does not admit to being wrong or apologize.

I believe in your zeal to attack Joe and defend Trump that you missed the fact that Joe Biden is basing his view on the fact that there is a vaccine now and, provided there are little to no issues regarding that, that there is an expected time frame for herd immunity.

Once Vaccine is Available, How Long Till We Reach ‘Herd Immunity'?

Dr. Dean Winslow, who is a professor of medicine at Stanford and also an infectious disease specialist, said when he predicts health officials will start feeling more comfortable and safe with people doing their normal activities again.

“The first, quick answer is, probably between 60 and 70% of the population needs to be immune to COVID-19 before we have, what’s popularly known as ‘herd immunity,’” he said. “However, having said that, again, understand that it may be the mid to latter part of 2021 before we have enough vaccine available in the us to really immunize that large of a percentage of the population.”

Winslow explains that even after you get immunized, you should still continue to wear face coverings, maintain social distance, limit things like travel and indoor dining because it does take at least two weeks after getting a second dose of the COVID vaccine for it to work.

​

There is a big difference between "I believe we will be back to normalcy by Christmas 2021" and "It will just disappear" or "It will be gone after the election" as if this whole pandemic happened for the sole purpose of hurting Trump's reelection campaign. I suspect that some can't see that.

​

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well...there are these times:
All of the times President Trump said Covid-19 will disappear

tulc(hopes that helps)

Yeah, it was disappearing. (sarcasm)

One American per minute is dying of Covid 19.

 

[hislegacy]

I believe in your zeal to attack Joe and defend Trump, you missed all the times in the links provided in #34 that Trump did not present his claim as opinion, did not bother to say "I believe..." and has often repeated, at various times, that he does not admit to being wrong or apologize.

I believe in your zeal to attack Joe and defend Trump that you missed the fact that Joe Biden is basing his view on the fact that there is a vaccine now and, provided there are little to no issues regarding that, that there is an expected time frame for herd immunity.

Once Vaccine is Available, How Long Till We Reach ‘Herd Immunity'?

Dr. Dean Winslow, who is a professor of medicine at Stanford and also an infectious disease specialist, said when he predicts health officials will start feeling more comfortable and safe with people doing their normal activities again.

“The first, quick answer is, probably between 60 and 70% of the population needs to be immune to COVID-19 before we have, what’s popularly known as ‘herd immunity,’” he said. “However, having said that, again, understand that it may be the mid to latter part of 2021 before we have enough vaccine available in the us to really immunize that large of a percentage of the population.”

Winslow explains that even after you get immunized, you should still continue to wear face coverings, maintain social distance, limit things like travel and indoor dining because it does take at least two weeks after getting a second dose of the COVID vaccine for it to work.

​

There is a big difference between "I believe we will be back to normalcy by Christmas 2021" and "It will just disappear" or "It will be gone after the election" as if this whole pandemic happened for the sole purpose of hurting Trump's reelection campaign. I suspect that some can't see that.

​

Well, we have a difference in opinion and perspective then.

OK It does not make one valid and another invalid. Just different.

 

[FreeinChrist]

If the virus is mutating as it apparently did in the UK, that changes any future expectations.

 

[hislegacy]

If the virus is mutating as it apparently did in the UK, that changes any future expectations.

Germany is on lockdown again also. How far behind is the entire EU? I had seven international trips cancelled in 2020. I’m hoping and praying it doesn’t happen again.

 

[Yoko.52]

I believe we should treat all Presidents equally.

Here is the “President elect” lying with no scientific proof that Covid will end by a certain date.

With 300,000 dead and spikes all over the US.

He said he believed will be closed...Trump has made similar not scientific coments. What I love most any topic defending democrats is reported and deleted for Offensive egregious inflammatory to Republicans...I believe your topic Offensive egregious inflammatory to me

 

[Redwingfan9]

View attachment 291020

There is limited scientific evidence that any of the governments mitigation efforts have worked in any meaningful way. It's obvious at this point that masks don't work. Lockdowns cause unintended consequences like depression and substance abuse. In an number of cities drug overdoses outpace Covid deaths by a country mile. Hardly surprising when governments tell people they aren't essential and shutdown their businesses and take away their jobs.

As for Biden, his people have been extending times by 3-6 months for awhile now. Fauci at one point suggested that the hoi pilloi could get the vaccine as soon as March, Trump's surgeon general said spring. Biden's people are claiming May or June at the earliest, maybe even mid summer.

My suspicion is that the Biden pessimism is all an act so they can take credit for the vaccine being available early than "expected." The media won't report that the prior administration said it would be available in March. By May everyone who wants the vaccine will have it. The million dollar question is whether Democrat governors will loosen their iron grip on power.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There is limited scientific evidence that any of the governments mitigation efforts have worked in any meaningful way.

Evaluating the Effectiveness of Social Distancing Interventions to Delay or Flatten the Epidemic Curve of Coronavirus Disease
What is the evidence for social distancing during global pandemics? - The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine
Stopping Coronavirus – What Does the Evidence Say Are the Best Measures? - Our World
Masks & Face Coverings for the Public

Here is a good one:
Trump says there's 'clear evidence' coronavirus mitigation is working in US as growth in new cases stabilizes

 

[FreeinChrist]

Please stop with the misinformation.

There is limited scientific evidence that any of the governments mitigation efforts have worked in any meaningful way.

Not true. Mitigation efforts do work. Check Michigan, which had closed some things 3 weeks ago:
Coronavirus in Michigan: Here’s what to know Dec. 22, 2020

The numbers went from spiking to decreasing. Taiwan followed strict protocols with masks, social distancing, etc and had 255 straight days without new cases. Today they had one case:
Taiwan Covid-19: First local case reported in more than 250 days - CNN
One case. Compare that to California and the rest of the US.

It's obvious at this point that masks don't work.

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

A recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.

​

I believe places like Taiwan and South Korea, where mask compliance was much better, demonstrate that masks help greatly.

Lockdowns cause unintended consequences like depression and substance abuse.In an number of cities drug overdoses outpace Covid deaths by a country mile. Hardly surprising when governments tell people they aren't essential and shutdown their businesses and take away their jobs.

So because some get depressed and drug addicts, who are not very compliant anyway, we should stop all mitigation, let Covid 19 grow uncontrolled leading to thousands of deaths an long term issues and huge medical bills? Let it overrun all the hospitals and lead to rationed care?

No thank you.

As for Biden, his people have been extending times by 3-6 months for awhile now. Fauci at one point suggested that the hoi pilloi could get the vaccine as soon as March, Trump's surgeon general said spring. Biden's people are claiming May or June at the earliest, maybe even mid summer.

My suspicion is that the Biden pessimism is all an act so they can take credit for the vaccine being available early than "expected." The media won't report that the prior administration said it would be available in March. By May everyone who wants the vaccine will have it. The million dollar question is whether Democrat governors will loosen their iron grip on power.

I don't see Biden trying to take credit for the vaccine.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Please stop with the misinformation.

There is limited scientific evidence that any of the governments mitigation efforts have worked in any meaningful way.

Not true. Mitigation efforts do work. Check Michigan, which had closed some things 3 weeks ago:
Coronavirus in Michigan: Here’s what to know Dec. 22, 2020


View attachment 291441

The numbers went from spiking to decreasing. Taiwan followed strict protocols with masks, social distancing, etc and had 255 straight days without new cases. Today they had one case:
Taiwan Covid-19: First local case reported in more than 250 days - CNN
One case. In a pilot. Compare that to California and the rest of the US.

It's obvious at this point that masks don't work.

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

A recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.

​

I believe places like Taiwan and South Korea, where mask compliance was much better, demonstrate that masks help greatly.

Lockdowns cause unintended consequences like depression and substance abuse.In an number of cities drug overdoses outpace Covid deaths by a country mile. Hardly surprising when governments tell people they aren't essential and shutdown their businesses and take away their jobs.

So because some get depressed and drug addicts, who are not very compliant anyway, have overdosed, we should stop all mitigation, let Covid 19 grow uncontrolled leading to thousands of additional deaths and long term issues and huge medical bills? Let it overrun all the hospitals and lead to rationed care?

No thank you.

As for Biden, his people have been extending times by 3-6 months for awhile now. Fauci at one point suggested that the hoi pilloi could get the vaccine as soon as March, Trump's surgeon general said spring. Biden's people are claiming May or June at the earliest, maybe even mid summer.

My suspicion is that the Biden pessimism is all an act so they can take credit for the vaccine being available early than "expected." The media won't report that the prior administration said it would be available in March. By May everyone who wants the vaccine will have it. The million dollar question is whether Democrat governors will loosen their iron grip on power.

I don't see Biden trying to take credit for the vaccine.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Evaluating the Effectiveness of Social Distancing Interventions to Delay or Flatten the Epidemic Curve of Coronavirus Disease
What is the evidence for social distancing during global pandemics? - The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine
Stopping Coronavirus – What Does the Evidence Say Are the Best Measures? - Our World
Masks & Face Coverings for the Public

Here is a good one:
Trump says there's 'clear evidence' coronavirus mitigation is working in US as growth in new cases stabilizes

I've posted ovet a dozen studies which call into question the effectiveness of masks dating back to the 80s. Most recently, a broad Danish study concluded the use of masks was statistically insignificant at reducing spread of the Chinese Coronavirus. A study out last week indicated reusing masks is actually worse at stopping the spread than wearing no mask at all. The fact is, people are taking those stupid things on and off all day, rendering them utterly useless.

The lockdowns and shutdowns haven't worked. They never worked. At best they delay the inevitable.

At this point, with a vaccine in place the virus should be treated like the flu. Those most vulnerable and those in healthcare should get the jab as soon as possible. For the rest of us it should be optional. We put up with 30k-90k flu deaths a year without anyone noticing. Since the virus is largely an old people killer (90% of deaths are over 60, 50% are over 80 much like flu), the sooner they're vaccinated the better.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Please stop with the misinformation.

Not true. Mitigation efforts do work. Check Michigan, which had closed some things 3 weeks ago:
Coronavirus in Michigan: Here’s what to know Dec. 22, 2020


View attachment 291441

The numbers went from spiking to decreasing. Taiwan followed strict protocols with masks, social distancing, etc and had 255 straight days without new cases. Today they had one case:
Taiwan Covid-19: First local case reported in more than 250 days - CNN
One case. Compare that to California and the rest of the US.


Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

A recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.

​

I believe places like Taiwan and South Korea, where mask compliance was much better, demonstrate that masks help greatly.


So because some get depressed and drug addicts, who are not very compliant anyway, we should stop all mitigation, let Covid 19 grow uncontrolled leading to thousands of deaths an long term issues and huge medical bills? Let it overrun all the hospitals and lead to rationed care?

No thank you.



I don't see Biden trying to take credit for the vaccine.

I live in Michigan and can tell you Queen Whitmer wants it both ways. She wants to scold us for celebrating Thanksgiving and blamed that for high numbers then when high numbers didn't materialize she credited her own mitigation efforts, which were pointless. Less than 4% of new cases were due to restaurants.

The fact is that the entire upper midwest saw a surge of new cases. Curiously they're all reducing at around the same rate despite business destroying tyrants like Whitmer shutting down random businesses and other states doing absolutely nothing more than they already were doing. Whitmer may try to take credit for lower numbers in Michigan but she waited for peak before doing anything in the first place. All she's done is bankrupt restaurants and increase unemployment. There is zero evidence her dictatorial declarations changed anything, not in light of neighboring states who did nothing having similar reductions.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I live in Michigan and can tell you Queen Whitmer wants it both ways. She wants to scold us for celebrating Thanksgiving and blamed that for high numbers then when high numbers didn't materialize she credited her own mitigation efforts, which were pointless. Less than 4% of new cases were due to restaurants.

The fact is that the entire upper midwest saw a surge of new cases. Curiously they're all reducing at around the same rate despite business destroying tyrants like Whitmer shutting down random businesses and other states doing absolutely nothing more than they already were doing. Whitmer may try to take credit for lower numbers in Michigan but she waited for peak before doing anything in the first place. All she's done is bankrupt restaurants and increase unemployment. There is zero evidence her dictatorial declarations changed anything, not in light of neighboring states who did nothing having similar reductions.

I am in Michigan with my mom who is in hospice and have been this whole year. Really enjoyed the fall. It got to a peak, but not the final one for all we know. The waiting probably had much to do with the Michigan Supreme court decision. The legislature sure didn't act.
And yes, the entire midwest saw a surge. Much of the country did. I used Michigan as an example because I am here and watching it closer.
Fact is, the response has has been fair at best. Compare the US to South Korea or Taiwan or New Zealand. They have way improved compliance with the mask mandates and guidelines for prevention. It shows.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I am in Michigan with my mom who is in hospice and have been this whole year. Really enjoyed the fall. It got to a peak, but not the final one for all we know. The waiting probably had much to do with the Michigan Supreme court decision. The legislature sure didn't act.
And yes, the entire midwest saw a surge. Much of the country did. I used Michigan as an example because I am here and watching it closer.
Fact is, the response has has been fair at best. Compare the US to South Korea or Taiwan or New Zealand. They have way improved compliance with the mask mandates and guidelines for prevention. It shows.

I'm watching Michigan closely too. It is hardly fair to small business owners and their employees to have their businesses shutdown by a tyrannical governor unilaterally making decisions. Not when those same businesses are open over the order in Indiana, a state with similar numbers and a similar curve. Same can be said for Wisconsin and other upper midwest states.

Michigan is already behind the 8 ball because of high taxes, heavy regulations and a union spirit that does more harm than good. Whitmer is making things worse by destroying family owned businesses based on "science" that she refuses to make public, even to the legislature. She's a hyper-partisan hack, a Michigan version of Trump with a bigger taste for control.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I've posted ovet a dozen studies which call into question the effectiveness of masks dating back to the 80s. Most recently, a broad Danish study concluded the use of masks was statistically insignificant at reducing spread of the Chinese Coronavirus. A study out last week indicated reusing masks is actually worse at stopping the spread than wearing no mask at all. The fact is, people are taking those stupid things on and off all day, rendering them utterly useless.

Masks do work. That some are careless about them does not change that fact. In medicine, masks have been used since the late 1800s - over a hundred years, in order to prevent transmission of germs. Paper masks started in 1930. The masks functioned to either prevent the caregiver from getting and sharing germs, or to prevent the caregiver from giving germs to a compromised patient.
In the US, many are careless.

The lockdowns and shutdowns haven't worked. They never worked. At best they delay the inevitable.

Yes, they did work to reduce new infections. And what they did was to prevent is the death of many while we waited for a vaccine.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I'm watching Michigan closely too. It is hardly fair to small business owners and their employees to have their businesses shutdown by a tyrannical governor unilaterally making decisions. Not when those same businesses are open over the order in Indiana, a state with similar numbers and a similar curve. Same can be said for Wisconsin and other upper midwest states.

Michigan is already behind the 8 ball because of high taxes, heavy regulations and a union spirit that does more harm than good. Whitmer is making things worse by destroying family owned businesses based on "science" that she refuses to make public, even to the legislature. She's a hyper-partisan hack, a Michigan version of Trump with a bigger taste for control.

Indiana hasn't had the numbers Michigan has. And they have restrictions as well. Michigan also has about 3 million more people than Indiana and a lot of the rural coastal areas get a lot tourists or Michiganders with second homes.

What you are not addressing is how masks and mitigation has worked in other countries and not the US.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Masks do work. That some are careless about them does not change that fact. In medicine, masks have been used since the late 1800s - over a hundred years, in order to prevent transmission of germs. Paper masks started in 1930. The masks functioned to either prevent the caregiver from getting and sharing germs, or to prevent the caregiver from giving germs to a compromised patient.
In the US, many are careless.



Yes, they did work to reduce new infections. And what they did was to prevent is the death of many while we waited for a vaccine.

The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...-su9_me9_vY6a8KVR4HZ17J2A_80f_fXUABRQdhQlc8Wo
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30169507/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

More recently, a Danish study showed masks did not provide a statistically significant reduction in Chinese Coronavirus. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Wearing no mask at all is better than wearing a used mask, which is what nearly everyone is using. https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...suggests-no-mask-better-than-an-old-mask.aspx

There's also ample evidence that lockdowns are poor policy that do more harm than good. https://mises.org/wire/evidence-kee...il&utm_term=0_8b52b2e1c0-4da83ae339-228080641

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing. All one needs to do is look at the draconian approach of Michigan compared to Indiana. Similar numbers, similar rise and falls but with significantly less government overreach in Indiana.