Joe Biden and Ron DeSantis Trade Barbs as Florida's Monoclonal Antibodies Restricted

Tanj · Sep 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Are we aiming for a "fairness-based" approach or a "needs-based" approach with this one?

If it's a "needs-based"/"humanitarian" approach, then the Federal government should ship southern states however much of the drug they need in order to keep the most number of people out of the hospital regardless of how short-sighted or stupid their decision making was.

Again, it's a finite resource. Why do you think people in New York and California should die at the expense of those in Florida? They (Floridians) shouldn't be treated worse, I don't see why they should be treated better, which is the argument you are actually making. If we use deaths as a crude proxy for really ill people that need antibodies, the US had ~2000, with Florida at ~ 350. On that basis, it should be receiving ~ 20% of the supply, not 70%.

ThatRobGuy · Sep 20, 2021

Tanj said:
Again, it's a finite resource. Why do you think people in New York and California should die at the expense of those in Florida? They (Floridians) shouldn't be treated worse, I don't see why they should be treated better, which is the argument you are actually making. If we use deaths as a crude proxy for really ill people that need antibodies, the US had ~2000, with Florida at ~ 350. On that basis, it should be receiving ~ 20% of the supply, not 70%.

If it were a case where Cali and NY weren't able to get those resources due to Florida using it all up and there being none left, then I'd have a different take on it.

As of right now, that's not the case. An anti-vaxxer in a highly vaccinated state can get monoclonal antibodies just like an anti-vaxxer in a lower vaccinated state.

By default, people in the anti-vaccine sentiment camp who are getting Regeneron are being "treated better", simply by virtue of them getting a "antibody bailout" and thus, not having to feel the full consequences of their poor decision making.

I don't see a Florida anti-vaxxer (who decided to hit the livestock & feed store for some off-label Ivermectin that's not delivered in the human recommended form) as any more or less virtuous than a new-age hippy living on the west coast who decided they were going to try Vitamin-D drips and essential oils.

Just because there's a higher concentration of idiots in one particular region doesn't make their idiots worse than the idiots who live in the region that has a higher concentration of smart people.

Perhaps a good example would be to look at Heroin users and the required use of Narcan to keep them alive. Sure, certain areas have a higher concentration of those types of people, but on an individual level, the heroin addict who lives in a city with a lot of fellow heroin addicts isn't "better" or "worse" than the guy who's the only heroin addict in his town.

rjs330 · Sep 20, 2021

Halbhh said:
Interesting post. Especially where you wrote:
"If one really believes "healthcare is a human right, no matter how poor their decision making is", then nobody should object to using federal resources to treat a person, even if that person did something stupid like trying to use Ivermectin instead of a free effective and safe vaccine."

While back in 2010 I was writing a blog about health care reform, and some of the ideas I liked got into the ACA, one of things I proposed in my blog was that people that do risky things like smoking for example should not be subsidized in that extra health cost they are causing.

The non-smokers should not have to subsidize the smokers.

As I thought about it back then, it would be best to have a simple way of paying that incurred cost, such as:

"Further, good insurance reform would allow insurers to offer health incentives such as vouchers for certain health purchases such as exercise equipment/gym membership. The real health costs incurred by unhealthy foods and second-hand smoke can be handled separately via special sales taxes, with the sales-tax revenue sent into the federal health care budget."
Finding the Dream: Ranking the Public Options (updated)

Which is at least for smoking largely the case now, in that cigarette taxes are high.

Also, drivers that have a track record of poor driving pay more for insurance. So, we are at least for some things already doing this.

So, to me, it's not really one side or the other as you presented above that are all-correct, but instead both sides have pieces that are correct. I think the best solutions are going to incorporate in some way the good principles from both sides.

We need to 'have it both ways' in that sense.

How about over eating. Should they get healthcare? Those that eat too much sugar? How about those that drink too much alcohol? Or what about drug users?

rjs330 · Sep 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Correct, but they show a pretty good track record of keeping it better controlled.

No they don't. Look at all the countries that have had serious mandates. They too have had huge waves of covid despite the mandates.

And you act like Florida is the worst ever. Geez it seems like with these threads that everyone in Florida is dying from COVID. Or everyone I. Florida is in the hospital for it.

It's not even the worst in the nation. There are other places in the country that are bigger hotspots than Florida. I think the deal is the media is nothing but a bunch of leftists. We did not see this kind of negative publicity when NY was going through it.

It's almost like those on the left are loving this.

I wonder what is going to happen when it's happens in a leftist state.

rambot · Sep 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
No they don't. Look at all the countries that have had serious mandates. They too have had huge waves of covid despite the mandates.

And you act like Florida is the worst ever. Geez it seems like with these threads that everyone in Florida is dying from COVID. Or everyone I. Florida is in the hospital for it.

It's not even the worst in the nation. There are other places in the country that are bigger hotspots than Florida. I think the deal is the media is nothing but a bunch of leftists. We did not see this kind of negative publicity when NY was going through it.

It's almost like those on the left are loving this.

I wonder what is going to happen when it's happens in a leftist state.

Claiming about "leftist media" and "leftist state" eh?
Pray, since vaccines have been in play, which states, leftists or rightists states have had better health outcomes in regards to COVID?

Mississippi is actually the 2nd worst health juridiction in the ENTIRE WORLD (After Peru....yes, peru...that means Nigeria is doing better) currently.
But don't worry, the GOP governor is doing exactly nothing to improve the situation. Because he isn't a leftist.

As to why there is a focus on Florida, my guess its because DeSantis is widely considered to be a front runner position for a run for president in the not too distant future. No good reason to avoid HIS response to a crisis like this to see how it could be "writ large" over America WHEN (not if) another pandemic of any type happens.

wing2000 · Sep 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
If "human healthcare is a right, regardless of poor decisions" is a virtue, should certain life saving treatments be throttled, even if a state's current situation is the result of their own poor decisions?

Is that the reason for "throttling" the treatments ? Or is the intent to distribute the antibodies fairly, according to need?

"Under the new plan, the government will examine hospitalization data and case rates in states and territories, then determine how much they will receive each week. Each state then can set distribution of the medication to its own sites. A similar system was used last winter but abandoned when demand for the therapy remained low."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/14/monoclonal-antibodies-shortage/

Pommer · Sep 20, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
One way or the other, people are going to get their antibodies...it's a shame that so many people are willfully confining themselves to get them "the hard way" instead of the much easier way.

Well, that’s the thing, a lot of them are tired of confining themselves and wish to freely move about at-large like the people who have been vaccinated, (as is their right)…Trump taught them well, “who’s gonna stop me!?”

And here we are!

Pommer · Sep 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
How about over eating. Should they get healthcare? Those that eat too much sugar? How about those that drink too much alcohol? Or what about drug users?

Sounds sorta lefty for you, rj!

Pommer · Sep 20, 2021

rambot said:
As to why there is a focus on Florida, my guess its because DeSantis is widely considered to be a front runner position for a run for president in the not too distant future. No good reason to avoid HIS response to a crisis like this to see how it could be "writ large" over America WHEN (not if) another pandemic of any type happens.

The “Maverick Republican” slot is open since McCain is dead and Himself is in a league of his OWN.

He needs a make over, soon.
He’ll “get sick” and drop out of view to train with the people movie actors rely on to whip flabby bodies into shape, and after two weeks he comes back and daily starts looking like a champion (again).

Nah! Too much work!

A_Thinker · Sep 21, 2021

rjs330 said:
It's not the same thing. We are talking about the difference between a NATIONAL pandemic which cannot be stopped and an individual state making spending decisions.

We've stopped pandemics before ... Smallpox, Polio, Measles, etc.

Smallpox was more infectious than COVID in its day, and we stopped it ... with vaccines ...

Halbhh · Sep 21, 2021

rjs330 said:
How about over eating. Should they get healthcare? Those that eat too much sugar? How about those that drink too much alcohol? Or what about drug users?

Personally, I think that if someone voluntarily (by free choice) does any widely understood practice that harms health -- does actions that degrade health sharply like smoking or alcoholism or severe overeating (however defined by the free market), and any other chosen actions -- then (American free market) health insurers should be free to charge them higher premiums or an annual surcharge.

After all, we have a free market for health insurance (under our current law, the ACA (the Affordable Care Act of 2010)).

ThatRobGuy · Sep 21, 2021

rjs330 said:
No they don't. Look at all the countries that have had serious mandates. They too have had huge waves of covid despite the mandates.

Any examples you'd like to discuss in particular? "Huge waves" is all a matter of perspective.

What Australia and NZ consider to be "huge waves" are numbers so low that if we had them here (even adjusting for population size), people would switch into "okay, looks like we beat it!" mode.

For instance, Australia seeing 1600 cases a day for the whole country of 25 million people is considered a huge spike.

Adjust that for population size, that'd be like the US only having 21,000 cases per day. That's around the avg number of cases we were having around the 4th of july holiday week when everyone was celebrating that we finally got it under control. We're currently at around 150,000 cases per day on average (with some days going much higher than that)

rjs330 said:
And you act like Florida is the worst ever. Geez it seems like with these threads that everyone in Florida is dying from COVID. Or everyone in Florida is in the hospital for it.

It's not even the worst in the nation. There are other places in the country that are bigger hotspots than Florida.

In many ways, their handling has been terrible and at many points, they were the worst in terms of case rates.

They're on the downward portion of the bell curve now after Delta ripped through their population.

Florida surpasses 50K COVID deaths after battling delta wave
Florida Has the Highest COVID Death Rate in the U.S.
States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Sept. 21

They have the highest death rate in the nation.

Ron DeSantis did everything in his power to squash mitigation efforts, and promote monoclonal antibodies to placate people who were anti-vaccine. Rather than call out anti-vaxxers like other republican governors did (Hutchinson, Justice, Ivey), he did the "talk out of both sides of his mouth" routine. Where he'd say good things about the vaccine (so that nobody could call him an anti-vaxxer), but then constantly espouse platitudes pandering to the "covid is no big deal" crowd. Things like "in the state of Florida, we're not going to have two classes of citizens!" and "when it comes to masks in Florida, parents will make the choice!"

To use an analogy that I think will hit home for some conservatives.

Heavy reliance on monoclonal antibodies (in order to keep death and hospitalization rates lower among anti-vaxxers) is the same flawed way of thinking as if people touted abortion (instead of the better choice, which would be contraception) as a way to keep teen birthrates and single motherhood rates low.

If people were doing the right thing and taking the effective vaccine that's free and being responsible with how they conduct themselves... use of monoclonal antibodies would only need to be "safe, legal, and rare" since most people would be responsibly taking precautions. It's not a coincidence that the states with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest need for Regeneron.

Ana the Ist · Sep 22, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Joe Biden and Ron DeSantis trade barbs as Florida's monoclonal antibodies restricted

Interesting conversation to be had on this one.

...and this is another one where I feel that both sides may have some explaining to do.

To the Democrat side:
If "human healthcare is a right, regardless of poor decisions" is a virtue, should certain life saving treatments be throttled, even if a state's current situation is the result of their own poor decisions?

To the Republican side:
If fiscal responsibility and people should have to live with the consequences of their own poor decisions, and If you want to make bad decisions, then go ahead, but I shouldn't have to pay for that are cornerstones of the conservative thought process, should federal resources (which everyone has to pay for) be subsidized for contingency plans for states where they're actively rejecting mitigation measures?

It seems to me that people on both sides are wanting to have it both ways on this one.

If one really believes "healthcare is a human right, no matter how poor their decision making is", then nobody should object to using federal resources to treat a person, even if that person did something stupid like trying to use Ivermectin instead of a free effective and safe vaccine.

If one really believes "everyone else shouldn't have to pay for your bad decisions, you live with the decision you make", then they shouldn't object to the restriction of Regeneron to states like Florida and Texas, where, the increased demand for such treatments is directly the result of people making poor choices with regards to virus mitigation and rejecting the vaccine in favor of quack treatments (or nothing at all).

Doctors take an oath to help anyone they can.

That's a consideration that's vastly different from a fat person wanting an airline to accommodate them with XL size seats.

cow451 · Sep 22, 2021

Mayzoo said:
Just curious, are folks who are refusing the vaccine due to it being "experimental" accepting the EUA monoclonal antibodies?

Yes.

tall73 · Sep 22, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
The vast majority of people in states like Florida having to seek out that treatment are unvaccinated and made a really poor decision.

He claims the opposite. I haven't found any fact-checkers so far that dispute the claim.

DeSantis slams Biden for 'really huge cut' in Florida's critical COVID antibody treatment

In Florida, nearly 100,000 people have been treated with monoclonal antibody therapy after contracting COVID-19, DeSantis said Thursday.

DeSantis said the majority who sought treatment became infected with the virus despite being vaccinated against COVID-19, which he said underscores the need not only to promote vaccinations, which are widely available and free in Florida, but to develop early treatments for those who get the disease.

Florida ranks 21st for fully vaccinated rate among states, whereas the other states using a high amount of the antibody treatments are in the lower end.

And now we get this out of Tennessee, as a result of rationing:

Tennessee limiting monoclonal antibody treatment to unvaccinated residents

Tennessee, which is following the guidance of the National Institutes of Health, appears to be the first state to recommend limiting monoclonal antibody treatment to Covid-19 patients who are unvaccinated or vaccinated but immunocompromised.

tall73 · Sep 22, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Florida Has the Highest COVID Death Rate in the U.S.

They have the highest death rate in the nation.

From your source:

According to The New York Times COVID-19 tracker, Florida—the third largest state by population—has a death rate of 1.56 per 100,000 people over the last seven days.

The highest rate over the last seven days hardly paints the whole picture. These waves tend to effect geographic areas. Certainly politics plays a role, but being indoors due to hot weather likely does as well.

Despite having a huge population of elderly folks, who are at higher risk, Florida does not have the highest overall deaths per 100k for the pandemic overall. They are certainly moving up in the standings lately, however.

United States COVID: 43,256,838 Cases and 697,055 Deaths - Worldometer

1 Mississippi 3143
2 New Jersey 3067
3 Louisiana 2916
4 New York 2856
5 Alabama 2745
6 Arizona 2691
7 Massachusetts 2681
8 Rhode Island 2658
9 Arkansas 2485
10 Florida 2416

rjs330 · Sep 22, 2021

Halbhh said:
Personally, I think that if someone voluntarily (by free choice) does any widely understood practice that harms health -- does actions that degrade health sharply like smoking or alcoholism or severe overeating (however defined by the free market), and any other chosen actions -- then (American free market) health insurers should be free to charge them higher premiums or an annual surcharge.

After all, we have a free market for health insurance (under our current law, the ACA (the Affordable Care Act of 2010)).

That's fine but it's not what I asked. There are those who want to deny healthcare to those who are unvaccinated because they chose to be. It's because it was based on choice. I wondered if all bad health choices should be denied healthcare.

rjs330 · Sep 22, 2021

A_Thinker said:
We've stopped pandemics before ... Smallpox, Polio, Measles, etc.

Smallpox was more infectious than COVID in its day, and we stopped it ... with vaccines ...

And as we have seen vaccines do not stop COVID. We've haven't d veloped one yet that does.

rjs330 · Sep 22, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Any examples you'd like to discuss in particular? "Huge waves" is all a matter of perspective.

What Australia and NZ consider to be "huge waves" are numbers so low that if we had them here (even adjusting for population size), people would switch into "okay, looks like we beat it!" mode.

For instance, Australia seeing 1600 cases a day for the whole country of 25 million people is considered a huge spike.

Adjust that for population size, that'd be like the US only having 21,000 cases per day. That's around the avg number of cases we were having around the 4th of july holiday week when everyone was celebrating that we finally got it under control. We're currently at around 150,000 cases per day on average (with some days going much higher than that)

In many ways, their handling has been terrible and at many points, they were the worst in terms of case rates.

They're on the downward portion of the bell curve now after Delta ripped through their population.

Florida surpasses 50K COVID deaths after battling delta wave
Florida Has the Highest COVID Death Rate in the U.S.
States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Sept. 21

They have the highest death rate in the nation.

Ron DeSantis did everything in his power to squash mitigation efforts, and promote monoclonal antibodies to placate people who were anti-vaccine. Rather than call out anti-vaxxers like other republican governors did (Hutchinson, Justice, Ivey), he did the "talk out of both sides of his mouth" routine. Where he'd say good things about the vaccine (so that nobody could call him an anti-vaxxer), but then constantly espouse platitudes pandering to the "covid is no big deal" crowd. Things like "in the state of Florida, we're not going to have two classes of citizens!" and "when it comes to masks in Florida, parents will make the choice!"

To use an analogy that I think will hit home for some conservatives.

Heavy reliance on monoclonal antibodies (in order to keep death and hospitalization rates lower among anti-vaxxers) is the same flawed way of thinking as if people touted abortion (instead of the better choice, which would be contraception) as a way to keep teen birthrates and single motherhood rates low.

If people were doing the right thing and taking the effective vaccine that's free and being responsible with how they conduct themselves... use of monoclonal antibodies would only need to be "safe, legal, and rare" since most people would be responsibly taking precautions. It's not a coincidence that the states with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest need for Regeneron.

Australia and NZ are isolated from the outside world. And still had spikes. Had they been fully open to the outside world their spike would've have been larger.

‘Zero Covid’ Catastrophe: Participating Nations See New Records Across the Board – AIER

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horo...topping-a-pandemic-that-then-spread-even-more

rjs330 · Sep 22, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
In many ways, their handling has been terrible and at many points, they were the worst in terms of case rates.

They're on the downward portion of the bell curve

This is what's happening all over the world. Vivid has been hitting in waves. It comes, spikes, and then drops off.

It has not been able to be stopped regardless of the efforts to stop it. COVID is here to stay just like the seasonal flu. Because we haven't got a real vaccine and it's ability to mutate. Maybe someday we'll get a real vaccine like the flu shot, but I'm not seeing anything on that yet.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/07/who...hopes-for-eradicating-the-virus-diminish.html

Joe Biden and Ron DeSantis Trade Barbs as Florida's Monoclonal Antibodies Restricted

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