House votes to formally open an impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden

[The Barbarian]

Lemme get this straight, you’re more concerned that President Trump has been charged with multiple counts of (alleged) crimes, rather than the fact that he (allegedly), knew that what he was doing was illegal and kept doing it?

Today's winner.

 

[Laodicean60]

Notice that when Biden and Pence found some papers in their possession, they reported them and promptly returned them. Do you see the difference?

Maybe the cat was out of the bag. Saving face.

 

[The Barbarian]

Notice that when Biden and Pence found some papers in their possession, they reported them and promptly returned them. Do you see the difference?

Maybe the cat was out of the bag. Saving face.

My guess is that if it hadn't been for Trump getting indicted for theft of classified material, no one would even have realized it. I have no doubt that when Trump's thefts became public, Obama, Biden, Pence, and probably Bush and Cheney told their people, "Make absolutely sure I don't have any of that in my papers."

Turns out, they had nothing of consequence, but it was still property of the National Archives, so Biden and Pence reported it and returned the papers. Notice, even with the classified material Trump stole, if he had just told the truth and returned it, he wouldn't be looking at prison time, now.

 

[Laodicean60]

they had nothing of consequence

Since I've held a clearance any time I hear this stuff I get upset. If I had gotten caught with one piece of paper marked classified or confidential I would be sent to jail or fired. In my book, the law is the law and should be followed no matter how high up the food chain you are.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Since I've held a clearance any time I hear this stuff I get upset. If I had gotten caught with one piece of paper marked classified or confidential I would be sent to jail or fired. In my book, the law is the law and should be followed no matter how high up the food chain you are.

And you should, but it becomes quite clear that the executive grades and political types are often a bit more lax* with the large amount of classified information they see than your ordinary cleared people were.

*well, a lot more lax, particularly it would seem with transporting materials outside of secured environments or mixing them with other documents.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I was unaware that people didn't know that was a neo-nazi group. But since it's been documented to you, now you know. Did you think Antifa was going to assault the Capitol to overthrow the election and install Trump as Caudillo or whatever he had in mind?

No one has documented it actually. I was merely told that it was neo-nazi and I should believe it and this event (whatever it is) or do the work myself.
It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many fake images, people saying, "Look at this guy at a Trump rally with a Nazi flag" and such nonsense. Valid legitimate published news source or it didn't happen.

No written documentation has been posted as to who, what, when, where, why this occurred- I scrolled back.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

How many counts of murder of a federal employee was Timothy McVeigh charged with? Remember he only used one bomb and one trigger to detonate it.

And that incident caused multiple deaths. Each death is a different count of murder. And he was executed.

Totally different than one email or phone call being 10 counts.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Maybe you can enlighten me. Otherwise, feel free to go with the Conservative Party line like most Rightwingers do. That's your right if you are on the Right. However, is there any legitimate evidence to support toting the party line tjat is sexist, racisy, and homophobic? Doobt ot

But I'm an independent. I just require accuracy in assertions or I will address that. Your attempt to dismiss me is noted, and rejected. I don't even know what that mess at the end of your post is supposed to say or mean, but I guess you meant something by it.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Most of us know the real story here although others keep harping on about the mere fact of just having the documents.
Trump's problems got so much worse when he started lying to the authorities and getting his lawyers to lie, and instructing his staff to move and hide the documents.

Biden got his lawyers to return documents as soon as he found out he had them. I've not heard of Pence lying or concealing his documents.


It feels to me that each document is an offence in its own right. It feels that Trump should be charged for each document, for each lie, for each concealment.
Jack Smith is a prosecutor after all. He finds the crimes and the evidence and puts forth the charges.
Now we just wait to see how this plays out in court.

He is the Prosecutor and we shall see how it plays out in court. That much is correct.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Lets say they mug the same person 50 times, over the space of a year?
Do they get charged for just one crime?

No, anyone dumb enough to keep letting him out of prison after mugging two should be removed from office.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Lemme get this straight, you’re more concerned that President Trump has been charged with multiple counts of (alleged) crimes, rather than the fact that he (allegedly), knew that what he was doing was illegal and kept doing it?

Allegedly. When a conviction comes, tell me what he did was illegal and he kept doing it.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Show us where they did that to Trump. You do realize that the same act may violate more than one law, do you not? And there's no "twofer" clause in the law; you can be charged for each crime. Let's see what you have.

And if he had simply returned them when asked, he wouldn't have been charged. He got caught hiding them, and lying to the authorities about it.
Notice that when Biden and Pence found some papers in their possession, they reported them and promptly returned them. Do you see the difference?


Yes. If you steal more than one thing, you can be charged for each theft. No twofers, remember?


If two criminals are involved in the crime, they can both be charged. No twofers there, either.


Yes. Each theft is a separate crime. The more stuff one steals, the more charges.

I don't have time or interest to go through the particulars of the four indictments.

This is a simple summary with only some loaded language (such as the "Trump assembled false slates of electors" phrase:

Election case: Trump said and tweeted things. Somehow this caused an "insurrection" equivalent to the Civil War (an actual insurrection). Not so.

Georgia case: This one is going down in my estimation, due to the corruption of the primary prosecutor in meeting with the White House multiple times before filing, and paying her unqualified boyfriend massive amounts of money, and traveling with him, all on taxpayer money (hey, her affairs are her own business, but you can't do it on taxpayer funds). A judge has already set a professional misconduct hearing for Ms. Willis in February. This one hinges on a phone call Trump made asking Raffensperger to "find 11, 780 votes", meaning - the the Democrats -that Trump wanted him to create them out of thin air, instead of do careful recounts.

We shall see but this one will fail, I believe. Willis ridiculously overcharged this case, as if Trump is a major mob boss who directed the murder of hundreds. That's where RICO is used. Phone call.

Documents at Mar-a-Lago case: Jack Smith has spent millions of dollars and taken a year to work on this case, all on taxpayer funds, by the way.

Trump had documents, as do all Presidents (and even Mike Pence). Allegedly he made comments like "I could have declassified it but I didn't" on audio recordings. Not on camera, but nevertheless, charged with dozens of charges. 37 felonies. Remember, the SWAT team raided him as if he were a major dangerous criminal instead of asking to come and retrieve the documents. A raid was unnecessary but it was done for optics.

Hush money case: ONE incident. Allegedly he paid Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet about an affair...conveniently trotted out in late 2016, even though the alleged encounter happened back in 2006.. He says it never happened. Who knows. Hush money is NOT illegal in exchange for an NDA by the way.

You can read about it here. 34 counts for this one.

Arguments for and against. We shall see.

Tracking the Trump criminal cases: Latest on legal charges and key players

 

[stevil]

No, anyone dumb enough to keep letting him out of prison after mugging two should be removed from office.

Lets say they only got caught after the 50th mugging?

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't have time or interest to go through the particulars of the four indictments.

I can understand why.

This is a simple summary with only some loaded language (such as the "Trump assembled false slates of electors" phrase:

That's precisely what he did. Would you like some details?

Trump said and tweeted things. Somehow this caused an "insurrection"

Many of the insurrectionists admitted they were following his orders. Would you like me to show you that?

This one hinges on a phone call Trump made asking Raffensperger to "find 11, 780 votes"

Yep. Asking an official to "find" (enough votes to win) is pretty much a felony in Georgia. He's out of luck, it seems. Whining about the prosecutor in things not related to the case merely shows how desperate he is to avoid trial. But no judge is going to through out a grand jury indictment for something unrelated to the case.

Willis ridiculously overcharged this case, as if Trump is a major mob boss

Crime family head, yes. But all that matters is whether or not he actually asked Raffensberger to "find" him enough votes to win. If he did, he's a criminal. If not, he's out of trouble.

Trump had documents, as do all Presidents (and even Mike Pence).

And if he had returned the documents when he got caught, that would have been the end of it. Hiding them after that, and lying to the authorities about it, is why he's looking at prison time now. I have no doubts that after Trump got nailed for this, Biden, Pence, (and probably Obama, Bush, and Cheney) told their people: "go through my stuff and make (darned) sure that we don't have anything like that." Notice that Biden and Pence, when they found some documents, none of which were classified IIRC, returned them and were not charged. Just as Trump would not have been charged if he had merely done the right thing and returned them. But he's crooked and not too smart, so he thought he could get away with hiding them and lying to the National Archives and law enforcement. Big mistake.

Allegedly he paid Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet about an affair.

It's a fact. They've got all the details. Daniels admitted it. The Trump campaign admitted it. The money trail is there. That's not at issue.

Hush money is NOT illegal in exchange for an NDA by the way.

Watchdogs say the payment was meant to influence the 2016 presidential election, and Trump’s campaign committee violated the law by failing to report the expenditure as a campaign expense.

In addition, since Cohen initially said he paid Daniels out of his personal funds, a complaint from nonpartisan government reform organization Common Cause said the money should have been reported as an in-kind contribution to the campaign, in which case it would have been illegally large. (Individuals may give a political candidate no more than $2,700 per election.)

Giuliani on Wednesday said Trump reimbursed Cohen.

“The repayments took place over a period of time, probably in 2017, probably all paid back by the end of 2017,” Giuliani told The Washington Post. “That and probably a few other situations that might have been considered campaign expenses.”

Trump can legally contribute unlimited amounts to his own campaign, but the money must be disclosed on campaign finance reports.

Stephen Spaulding, chief of strategy and external affairs for Common Cause and a lawyer who once worked at the FEC, said Giuliani’s comments constitute “a bald-faced admission.”

“This was a potential knowing and willful violation of campaign finance laws,” he said, pointing especially to Giuliani’s comment about the news of the situation potentially breaking days before the presidential election on Nov. 8, 2016.
https://news.yahoo.com/news/stormy-daniels-hush-money-illegal-183507959.htmlTrump-Daniels

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Documents at Mar-a-Lago case: Jack Smith has spent millions of dollars and taken a year to work on this case, all on taxpayer funds, by the way.

Money didn't mean very much during the multiple Benghazi investigations. What Changed? Why is there now a price on justice?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Documents at Mar-a-Lago case: Jack Smith has spent millions of dollars and taken a year to work on this case, all on taxpayer funds, by the way.

Don't you realize how much the US spends on national defense. Isn't it worth it to recover missing (stolen) documents that are very sensitive to national security?

Trump had documents, as do all Presidents (and even Mike Pence).

He wasn't president.

Allegedly he made comments like "I could have declassified it but I didn't" on audio recordings. Not on camera, but nevertheless, charged with dozens of charges. 37 felonies.

For willful retention and obstruction and making false statements to the FBI.

Remember, the SWAT team raided him as if he were a major dangerous criminal instead of asking to come and retrieve the documents. A raid was unnecessary but it was done for optics.

It was not a SWAT team. It was not a "raid". No drawn weapons. It was not even obvious. No flashing lights, no FBI blue windbreakers. It was only reported because a local reporter in Palm Beach realized something was going on in the non-public areas of Mar-a-Lago.

 

[Arcangl86]

I don't have time or interest to go through the particulars of the four indictments.

This is a simple summary with only some loaded language (such as the "Trump assembled false slates of electors" phrase:

Election case: Trump said and tweeted things. Somehow this caused an "insurrection" equivalent to the Civil War (an actual insurrection). Not so.

That's not actually what the indictment claimed. In fact the entire indictment only has the word "insurrection" in it once, as part of a quote where a co-conspirator suggested invoking the Insurrection Act. And while the storming of the Capitol is part of the indictment, there is just as much of a focus on the other things Trump did such as organizing alternative slates of electors and pressuring Congresspeople to refuse to certify the count.

Georgia case: This one is going down in my estimation, due to the corruption of the primary prosecutor in meeting with the White House multiple times before filing,

Yes, he had a meeting with the White House Counsel because he was trying to interview former White House officials and had to make sure he didn't run into issues like executive privilege.

and paying her unqualified

Meh, his qualification is a matter of opinion. It's true that he was not a prosecutor, but as a judge, he had a lot of administrative experience, and if he himself wasn't in charge of the actual investigative aspect I don't see it being an issue.

boyfriend

Actually, we have no idea if they were involved in a romantic matter at all. There is single claim from one of the defendant's lawyers. It is known though that they have a long personal relationship, but anything else is speculation.

massive amounts of money

Meh. $250 an hour for outside legal services isn't that much.

, and traveling with him,

We have no idea why they were traveling, but again, that's not itself an indication of anything.

all on taxpayer money (hey, her affairs are her own business, but you can't do it on taxpayer funds).

Again, we have no idea why she was traveling with him. But if he billed the county, then there is probably an official reason for it. If he didn't it doesn't matter because he is allowed to spend his salary however he chooses.

A judge has already set a professional misconduct hearing for Ms. Willis in February.

Actually no. The judge has set a hearing to respond to a motion to dismiss the case.

This one hinges on a phone call Trump made asking Raffensperger to "find 11, 780 votes", meaning - the the Democrats -that Trump wanted him to create them out of thin air, instead of do careful recounts.

I'm not sure "hinges" is the right word here. That's one of the actions he is being prosecuted for, but it also includes the alternative elector scheme, trying to get legislators to overturn the election, filing false legal documents, and so on.

We shall see but this one will fail, I believe. Willis ridiculously overcharged this case, as if Trump is a major mob boss who directed the murder of hundreds. That's where RICO is used.

You should check your facts. Georgia RICO has a long history of being used in non-Organized Crime cases. Also, the RICO charge was only one of many counts on that indictment.

Phone call.

And many other things.

Documents at Mar-a-Lago case: Jack Smith has spent millions of dollars and taken a year to work on this case,

Criminal investigations, especially ones with national security implications take time and cost money. The similar investigation into President Biden, which seems more cut and dry in many ways, also has cost millions (though admittedly less) and has been going on for over a year. Except that one hasn't issued any indictments and is likely not to.

all on taxpayer funds, by the way.

Well, yeah. Do you expect criminal prosecutors to investigate cases with their own money?

Trump had documents, as do all Presidents (and even Mike Pence).

Yup. That's not what he got in trouble for.

Allegedly he made comments like "I could have declassified it but I didn't" on audio recordings.

Which if true proved he knew he shouldn't have them since he didn't have a security clearance anymore.

Not on camera, but nevertheless, charged with dozens of charges. 37 felonies.

Yes, he got charged separately for different documents, which is not an unusual way to charge.

Remember, the SWAT team raided him as if he were a major dangerous criminal

That did not happen. In fact reports from around the time of the search indicated the FBI didn't even wear the blue windbreakers they normally do.

instead of asking to come and retrieve the documents.

They tried that. And Trump allegedly hid documents.

A raid was unnecessary but it was done for optics.

A raid was not done.

Hush money case: ONE incident. Allegedly he paid Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet about an affair...conveniently trotted out in late 2016, even though the alleged encounter happened back in 2006.. He says it never happened. Who knows. Hush money is NOT illegal in exchange for an NDA by the way.

No, hush money is not illegal, but that's not what he is being prosecuted for. He is being prosecuted for allegedly cooking the books to hide it. And as a life long New York business man, he knows or should know how seriously the state takes accurate business records.

 

[Laodicean60]

Money didn't mean very much during the multiple Benghazi investigations. What Changed? Why is there now a price on justice?

That's a poor comparison, people died in Benghazi.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

That's a poor comparison, people died in Benghazi.

And who went to jail after spending Millions on multiple investigations? Was anyone even found guilty? (Other than just plain not likening Hillary)

 

[Laodicean60]

And who went to jail after spending Millions on multiple investigations? Was anyone even found guilty? (Other than just plain not likening Hillary)

What do you not get about people dying in Benghazi? Are you that paranoid? It had to be investigated. No one was found guilty, fine.