Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?
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Why is no one willing to discuss Job chapter forty one? Is it because when a closer look at the chapter is taken it reveals Satan as Leviathan? If Leviathan is Satan, than how does one answer the question, why did God accuse Job of making a contract with Satan?
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Searching the scriptures is never unfruitful. I believe the problem is people have formed an opinion from what they have been taught, and it doesn't matter what is in the scriptures.
Taking a line from the beginning and end of the book and ignoring what is in the 42 chapters is not a legitimate way of studying the bible. Yes it is uncomfortable for many to learn what they have been taught is wrong, but doesn't truth count? God said Job reproved him and condemned him. And he asked Job if he was going to make a contract with the king of pride. Why is it unfruitful to discuss that?
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seekingsolace
Bah
Searching the scriptures is not. Constantly revisiting points that have no purpose other than to further your opinion is.
This conversation is not edifying, hence the lack of discussion.
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It is not merely my opinion, it is what the book says. No one will discuss what God said to Job, only what he said to Satan in the first chapter.
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Sorry Thankful, I have been away praying. I think you need to take note of the observation about fruitfulness. My prayers have not been about the topic, but for revival including salvation of the lost. I am installing a new computer just now and don't have my references handy. I will consider your comment.
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My quick observation is that Job 41:4 is a question not an accusation. Besides not all agree that God is referring to Satan there.
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I found the following article relating to questions by God, and found it to be better written than I could.
EVERY PERSON HAS A STORY»
135 QUESTIONS JESUS ASKED
May 14, 2010 bymondaymorningreview
A few months back,Pastor Morris Sheats(one of my ministry heroes and mentors) shared about a sermon series he was preparing on the questions Jesus asked. This concept intrigued me, and I decided to jump into study of this topic myself.
I have been amazed by how masterfully our Lord uses questions to teach vital spiritual truths. Jesus never asked a question because he needed to know the answer. He used questions the way a surgeon uses a scalpel, to delicately cut into a new level of understanding.
Compiled here is a list of questions Jesus asked. Though it is probably not exhaustive, it is an extensive collection of interrogations still demanding answers of us.
I find myself amazed at the power of these questions to cut into my soul. I’d love to hear which question most jumps off the page and leaves you pondering as you read today.
1. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? (Matthew 5:46)
2. If you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? (Matthew 5:47)
3. Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? (Matthew 6:27)
4. Why do you worry about clothes? (Matthew 6:28)
5. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? (Matthew 7:3)
6. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:16)
7. Why are you so afraid? (Matthew 8:26)
8. Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? (Matthew 9:4)
9. Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? (Matthew 9:5)
10. How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? (Matthew 9:15)
11. Do you believe that I am able to do this? (Matthew 9:28)
12. What did you go out into the desert to see? (Matthew 11:7)
13. To what can I compare this generation? (Matthew 11:16)
14. If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? (Matthew 12:11)
15. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? (Matthew 12:29)
16. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? (Matthew 12:34)
17. Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? (Matthew 12:48)
18. Why did you doubt? (Matthew 14:31)
19. Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matthew 15:3)
20. How many loaves do you have? (Matthew 15:34)
21. Do you still not understand? (Matthew 16:9)
22. Who do people say the Son of Man is? (Matthew 16:13)
23. Who do you say I am? (Matthew 16:15)
24. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26)
25. How long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? (Matthew 17:17)
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Thank you. I went and read the post. I think you are pressing the point of the accusative question and its value, however such a question does not establish guilt. The writer actually asks such a question in his final statement and it would have better been finished with a question mark.
The question to Job is accusative but it is not judgmental. God did not ask Job, "Why did you make a covenant with leviathon," but, "do you think you are able to make a covenant with leviathon?" It is not a statement of act but a question of ability. Consider Jesus'questions... are you guilty of all of them? I certainly have never been interested in gaining the whole world.
If Leviathon is Satan as you interpret then he would make a covenant with Job, however if he is just a huge beast of immense physical power it is unlikely that Job would be able to force him to his will; but in the first case God is not actually accusing Job of making such a covenant.
The question to Job is accusative but it is not judgmental. God did not ask Job, "Why did you make a covenant with leviathon," but, "do you think you are able to make a covenant with leviathon?" It is not a statement of act but a question of ability. Consider Jesus'questions... are you guilty of all of them? I certainly have never been interested in gaining the whole world.
If Leviathon is Satan as you interpret then he would make a covenant with Job, however if he is just a huge beast of immense physical power it is unlikely that Job would be able to force him to his will; but in the first case God is not actually accusing Job of making such a covenant.
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If I asked you are you going to cheat on your wife forever, what is the implication?
There is so much more to this book than first meets the eye. Take for instance Job 41:30. It says potsherds are under him(Satan). He comforts himself by threshing them into dirt to be swept away. (My paraphrasing.)
Keep in mind that Job is the potsherd God is talking about. This is the picture of Job 2:8 where Job sits down to scrape himself with a potsherd. A potsherd is an earthen vessel made of clay that was broken because of sin. Job was striving with God.
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
The word striveth in Isaiah 45:9 is the same Hebrew word found in Job 40:2 which is translated as contendeth in the KJB.
God is the potter, and Job is the potsherd that God broke so that he could rework him.
Jeremiah 18:4,6,7, And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:
In order to understand the book of Job we have to apply biblical principles.
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It would be a lie actually, but that is unimportant since you are trying to imply the significance of the question to Job. However is your application true to God's question of Job?
Let me put forward a different proposal. Let's say the question asked is, are you going to make a covenant with that woman forever? Can you see that the question is not necessarily implying that I have made a covenant. Even if I were to substitute "that woman" for "your wife" it may apply differently to the time of the proposal. If I am receiving counsel before marriage and the counselor were to ask it the implication is of intent. If it is not my intention we should not be married.
I understand your use of Scripture to allegorise aspects of Job's story. I am trying to point out that not everyone will accept it as a valid interpretation of the testimony since allegorical interpretation is somewhat philosophical and open to interpretation. The use of the term potsherd in other places in Scripture does not determine the actual account of what took place between God and Job. It is not as plainly seen as you would like to imagine.
Why do you have to apply biblical principles to understand the Book of Job? It is a man's story of his life.
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If everyone took Job off the pedestal they have placed him on, and remove all the bias, then the book of Job would begin to make sense.
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Take the idea of the potsherd. Do a word search on the Hebrew word "cheres". Of the sixteen times it is found in the KJB it relates to a clay vessel, in regards to sin, almost without exception, except perhaps one time. Of the first five times the word occurs it is explicit that the clay vessel is to be broken, thus the potsherd.
If we don't need biblical principles to understand the bible, then who is Leviathan who beholds all high things?
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Yes, Thankful, I am not challenging your use of the term potsherd, nor am I discounting your privilege to the view you hold. its quite fine. I am merely pointing out that not everyone shares that view. You count Job as a sinner who needed saving, others see him as a believer needing deliverance.
If it is indeed a parable and not a real life story then the interpretation is up to the listener, yes? Whether they are right or wrong the purpose of the parable is to lead the hearer to life everlasting. Yes, yes, I know that it says, "That seeing they may not see, etc" but the actual purpose is to speak truth. If my interpretation leads me to trust in God, how can it be wrong? Even if it is a real life story told in the form of a parable once it has led me to Christ it has served its purpose.
You accidently changed the terms of understanding. We are not trying to understand the Bible, only Job.
Leviathan is a huge historical beast [some believe mythological] of immense size and strength who is probably extinct due to the fall of man. In the Psalms it mentions that God gave Leviathan as food to the people in the wilderness. Does one give a spirit being as food? Not very satisfying.
By the way, we are not trying to understand a book, but a man. If Job is only a story to you perhaps it is good that you use the Scripture to translate its meaning.
If it is indeed a parable and not a real life story then the interpretation is up to the listener, yes? Whether they are right or wrong the purpose of the parable is to lead the hearer to life everlasting. Yes, yes, I know that it says, "That seeing they may not see, etc" but the actual purpose is to speak truth. If my interpretation leads me to trust in God, how can it be wrong? Even if it is a real life story told in the form of a parable once it has led me to Christ it has served its purpose.
You accidently changed the terms of understanding. We are not trying to understand the Bible, only Job.
Leviathan is a huge historical beast [some believe mythological] of immense size and strength who is probably extinct due to the fall of man. In the Psalms it mentions that God gave Leviathan as food to the people in the wilderness. Does one give a spirit being as food? Not very satisfying.
By the way, we are not trying to understand a book, but a man. If Job is only a story to you perhaps it is good that you use the Scripture to translate its meaning.
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No, Job's words were not superior....he spoke what he felt out of his suffering, he too was wrong in much of what he said also, but he maintained his faith in God.
The moral of Job is that when suffering comes in the life of a believer we need to keep our mouth off of it. ONLY GOD KNOWS!
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First of all Job was undoubtedly a saint, since in God's eyes he was righteous. He is definitely the hero of this book, and the "patience of Job" is commended in Scripture (Jas 5:11).
Job's words are neither superior nor inferior to those of his friends. Indeed, his friends provide us with many valuable spiritual insights. The problem with his friends was that instead of being content to comfort Job and pray for his deliverance, they deemed him to be a sinner because he suffered the loss of everything, and brought accusations against him. Their human logic was that God would never allow a righteous man to lose everything, but they failed to see what God was accomplishing in this battle between Job and Satan (and God and Satan).
The "deeper" meaning of Job is that the more you love God, and the more you desire to serve Him, the more he causes you to suffer in this life, but in the life to come He rewards you more abundantly. Therefore Job was blessed far more abundantly at the end than at the beginning (Job 42:12-17). Thus we have the sufferings of Job and the sufferings of Christ.
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The purpose of the bible is not only for our salvation, but for a rule book on how to live and have a closer relationship with God.
You cannot separate any individual book from the rest of the bible.
Leviathan is no more mystical than the devils that entered into the swine and drowned in the water. If Leviathan is a mystical beast than so is Satan.
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The book of Job shows us that Job's faith was in himself. God said, "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous? It was Job's own righteousness that he had faith in. Job said, "My righteousness I hold fast." Job had faith that there was a God, but he didn't know him, or how to be just with him.
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God never calls Job righteous. We see two types of righteousness. The first is man's righteousness that is condemned as being as filthy rags. The second is God's that leads to salvation. Job had clothed himself in his own righteousness and had not submitted himself to the righteousness of God. The book is about Job's salvation.
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