Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

[thankfulttt]

That is so true. Satan did not present himself to God again and there was no further conversation between the two. The last conversation we have is between God and Job, and God and Job's three friends.

In answer to the opening post neither Job or his friends should be regarded above the other. Job repented of justifying himself instead of God and the three friends repented of the things they said against Job. All is forgiven. God was right and Satan was wrong. End of the spiritual attack.

Can a saved person exalt themselves above God? To be saved is to know God. To have a personal relationship. You can question God, but it doesn't seem possible that you would exalt yourself above God if you were truly saved.

 

[thankfulttt]

If I might make a comment, here. Something happened to me more than thirty years ago in my relationship with my wife. About four years ago I was overcome with grief and began to contend with God over the injustice of it all, reminding him of his word and promises to those who walk uprightly. Like Job I had done everything in my power to remain right with God, but it appeared help had not come to me. I grumbled to God about the injustice of it all.

Do you know what the amazing thing is? He did not judge me or correct me, though I was wrong to speak to him this way. He just said, "You're just going to have to get over it because I have called you."

I knew that was the end of the matter. I apologised to God for my childishness, forgave every injustice against me, and moved on. Today I'm over it.

To me this is not dissimilar to what happened to Job though I wouldn't compare myself to him. No revelations of conversations between God and Satan here.

But there was an inward battle that sometimes seemed to wrestle with my relationship with God. At times my thinking seemed not to care about it, which is shameful. I would not encourage doing what I did.

My point was that Job was not saved at this juncture in his life, but you evidently were. Eternal security comes into play here.

 

[mmksparbud]

And God would never say this about an unsaved man:

(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

[thankfulttt]

And God would never say this about an unsaved man:

(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Why wouldn't God? If we apply New Testament principles than Job was not saved, because he was only a servant.

 

[mmksparbud]

We are all servants of God--including the angels. Jesus came to serve. Job was not New Testament and one cannot apply new testament anything to him.

 

[thankfulttt]

We are all servants of God--including the angels. Jesus came to serve. Job was not New Testament and one cannot apply new testament anything to him.

Then "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" does not apply to the Old Testament?

 

[mmksparbud]

Then "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" does not apply to the Old Testament?

Of course--but they had the old testament way of dealing with sin, the sacrificial system--we have Christ as our Lamb. The old testament pointed to the new.

 

[thankfulttt]

Of course--but they had the old testament way of dealing with sin, the sacrificial system--we have Christ as our Lamb. The old testament pointed to the new.

Ok the Old Testament sacrificial system was a physical picture in part of the New Testament spiritual application of the Lamb of God offering. So we also see the physical picture of being born again of Job in the book of Job.

 

[mmksparbud]

And God called Job perfect and upright, before the tests, something no unsaved person can be. Job erred, he repented, God said ok--end of matter no I see no reason to keep beating this poor animal----Don't know what your problem with Job is, but I do not have one so I am done here.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Can a saved person exalt themselves above God? To be saved is to know God. To have a personal relationship. You can question God, but it doesn't seem possible that you would exalt yourself above God if you were truly saved.

Can you show me where Job directly said, "I am greater than God?"

Then I can answer your statement of possibility.

Rather I seem to read the Job did similar to what I did, or the other way around if you prefer. We both questioned whether God was living up to what we saw as his end of the bargain [that's probably not said very well].

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I questioned God rather than complain to friends with little interest in my anxieties, but then I didn't have friends to whinge to anyway, who would have just called me silly and been no help at all. God was the best person to take it to.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I

Why wouldn't God? If we apply New Testament principles than Job was not saved, because he was only a servant.

I'm not too sure about the soundness of that statement. Even when applied only to the New Testament.

 

[thankfulttt]

I

I'm not too sure about the soundness of that statement. Even when applied only to the New Testament.

The following verses are offered in support that only sons are saved.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

 

[thankfulttt]

You think you did wrong--kid stuff!! I verbally, out loud told Him to take a hike and leave me alone, that I was quite willing to go to hell and that I was going to live my life the way I wanted so go away!!!! I asked only one thing of Him---I have no problem with going to hell, I just do not want to be amongst those that come against Him and the city with Satan. That to me, was, and still is, incredibly stupid--I mean it's ridiculous to think you can win a battle against God, you don't raise your hand against God--dumb. I figured it was a good deal, send me to hell, I know I will deserve it, but don't let me be with those that raise their hand against you.---And that was my mistake!!! Because there is only one way to avoid being one of them, that is to be with Him---I didn't realize that at the time and so I didn't realize that I had given Him the invitation to go right ahead and save me!! He waited many years for it, but He finally---thank God---saved me!!

Praise the Lord!

Since you have received Christ have you cursed God?

 

[mmksparbud]

I never cursed Him--I was just totally ticked off at Him! Took me years to get over the anger to the realization that it was not Him who hurt me, He allowed it for some reason, but it was others who had the choice and did not do right. God understood.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

The following verses are offered in support that only sons are saved.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Good Scriptures yet, as you say, all Scripture is given and is profitable so let us consider what these men wrote in full perspective.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Though a son John still writes of himself as a servant and views the church as servants.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

See how Paul also recognises himself as a servant of Christ?

We know from the Gospels that Jesus Christ refers to his disciples and those who believe in and follow him as servants.

God's reference to Job as a servant does not necessarily declare that he wasn't saved. I wouldn't use such a reference as proof of it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Good Scriptures yet, as you say, all Scripture is given and is profitable so let us consider what these men wrote in full perspective.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Though a son John still writes of himself as a servant and views the church as servants.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

See how Paul also recognises himself as a servant of Christ?

We know from the Gospels that Jesus Christ refers to his disciples and those who believe in and follow him as servants.

God's reference to Job as a servant does not necessarily declare that he wasn't saved. I wouldn't use such a reference as proof of it.

In referring to Christ Himself:
(Mat 12:18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
(Php 2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(Php 2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

(Mat 20:27) And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

 

[thankfulttt]

I never cursed Him--I was just totally ticked off at Him! Took me years to get over the anger to the realization that it was not Him who hurt me, He allowed it for some reason, but it was others who had the choice and did not do right. God understood.

Yes our anger sometimes controls us. My anger was not the same as yours, but perhaps it was just as great. I wanted to hurt someone very badly for what they had done. It has taken me years to realize that all sin is against God. That the vengeance is God's. God had mercy on us and not vengeance, and that is why David said mercy, and not judgment.

 

[thankfulttt]

Good Scriptures yet, as you say, all Scripture is given and is profitable so let us consider what these men wrote in full perspective.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Though a son John still writes of himself as a servant and views the church as servants.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

See how Paul also recognises himself as a servant of Christ?

We know from the Gospels that Jesus Christ refers to his disciples and those who believe in and follow him as servants.

God's reference to Job as a servant does not necessarily declare that he wasn't saved. I wouldn't use such a reference as proof of it.

True good points. The principle of servant son originates in the Old Testament were the heir was a servant until he became of age.

 

[thankfulttt]

In referring to Christ Himself:
(Mat 12:18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
(Php 2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(Php 2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

(Mat 20:27) And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Notice that God never calls Jesus his servant in the New Testament. And Jesus never said he was a servant, only that he acted like one.

You two are right, that just because Job wasn't called a son by God does not make him unsaved.

When you read that God said Job was his servant many automatically believe that Job belonged to God, or that he was saved. But is it true that Job belonged to God?

There is more than one type of servant. The two being considered here are hired servant and bondservant.

If you listen to the words of Job you will believe that he considers himself a hired servant. Job 7:1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? Are not his days also like the days of an hireling. Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling his day.

A hired servant does not belong to his master, when his contract is up he is no longer connected to the one he had the contract with. One definition of a hired servant is a mercenary.

Webster’s definition of hireling---a person who is for hire; esp., one who will follow anyone’s orders for pay; mercenary.
mercenary-definition of mercenary by the Free Online Dictionary ...mer·ce·nar·y (mûr s-n r) adj. 1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.

Nebuchadnezzar was a hired servant (or mercenary) of God. For his pay he received the wealth of Israel.

Leviticus 25:39-41 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: But as an hired servant, and as a sourjourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubilee: And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.

A hired servant could not partake of the Passover Lamb. The Passover Lamb represents salvation and is Jesus Christ. Exodus 12:45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

A hired servant could become a bond servant by choice, and thus belong to the master. (Exodus 21:5-6)

A servant can become a son. Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Job wanted to be free from his master. Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

As you read the book of Job you will see that Job, in the beginning, was not a bondservant, but rather a hired servant as he himself indicated, and therefore he did not belong to God, which would indicate that Job was not saved.

God asked Job if he was going to make a covenant with the king of the children of pride (Satan), and take him for a servant for ever. (Job 41:4,34)