Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

[Questioning Christian]

There is nothing wrong with saying "Thy will be done." There is nothing wrong with praying the promises of God, and NOT saying "Thy will be done." It is not whether we added the "thy will" phrase, or not. It is all contingent upon our attitude in approaching the throne of grace. My friend, you can pray "thy will be done" all you want to, but consider these Scriptures -

"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" [Psalm 66:18]

"The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open unto their cry." [Psalm 34:15]

"Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear." [Isaiah 59:1,2]

"If my people, which are called by my Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins, and will heal their land." [II Chronicles 7:14]

The way to pray is to know the promises of God, and have confidence that because you have spoken God's word about your situation, that you HAVE prayed the will of God. Of course, the attitude is ALWAYS that of submission, "Lord, your will be done." There is no prayer without deference to the Almighty. There is no "faith in faith". No one puts "faith in faith". No one worships faith. Believing in someONE [not someTHING] greater than oneself, that is the very nature of prayer itself, our acknowledgement of the ultimate rulership of God above, and of His divine Sovereignty and providence in our lives, in the big things and the little things.

The will of God is NOT hidden. Deuteronomy 30:11-15 states, "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil ..."

The will of God is, and always has been, the total healing and health of man - spirit, soul, and body. God's will has NEVER been that man's spirit be corrupted, man's soul to go to Hell, or man's body to be sick. If God had wanted Adam and Eve sick and broke and destined for Hell, he would have instituted sickness, disease, and Hell into the Garden of Eden. God never intentioned negative consequences for man. Satan is NOT the author of sickness and disease - disobedience is. When Satan rebelled against God, that is when all HIS trouble started. When our first parents rebelled against God, there was their trouble. Sickness and disease, et al, are a result of Adam's sin, not the result of the will of God.

He says in Exodus 15:26 to Moses and to all Israel, " ... If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." And again, in Exodus 23:25, "And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee."

Psalm 103:1-5 - " Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: WHO FORGIVETH ALL THINE INIQUITIES; WHO HEALETH ALL THY DISEASES; who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."

Do you, a human parent, want YOUR child sick? or mentally ill? or damned to Hell? Do you think that God, the ultimate and Holy Father, wants evil things for HIS children? How much more does he want good things for us? How could we ever know anything of goodness, in wishing our children well, than unless we learned it from the original and master Parent, our Father God above? Speaking of the healing-forgiveness combination, do we not see Jesus healing people and forgiving their sins simultaneously? There were MANY instances where he forgave them and healed them at the same time.

In James 5:14,15 we read, "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." God is interested in the perfect well-being of the total man. The Apostle Paul expressed this sentiment in I Thessalonians 5:23 when he wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, "And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY [fully, completely, entirely]; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The above emphasis in brackets was not from the Amplified; I added that myself. I am quoting these all from King James.

I looked in my Young's Analytical Concordance to discover the Greek root for the word "saved". That word is "sozo", and it means "to save, to keep sound". The implication is that there is deliverance in EVERY area, that salvation and protection is totally available for every part of man's existence. Now, does this mean that anyone who is sick is out of the will of God in some way? Does this make them less spiritual? Absolutely not. Does this mean that God wants them sick? No way! They may have unknowingly eaten something that contributed to their sickness, or drank some contaminated water. Maybe their city air is polluted, like the folks in L.A. Who knows WHY people get sick?

But the focus is not on the sickness, but on Christ the Healer! People spend too much time debating whether God did it, when the fact is, that even if a person is in sin and gets sick because of it [e.g. catching AIDS from dirty heroin needles], even then, GOD was not the cause of sickness. For those who received sickness from their act of trangsression, He set down the rules; THEY disobeyed them. He put up the umbrella; they stepped outside that umbrella and got rain on them.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

God NEVER put any sickness on anyone; sickness came from either the original sin of Adam [into the human experience], or as a direct result of a person's rebellion against God. I am talking here about sins where you can directly correlate the sin to the sickness, such as being in a drug culture and getting an STD. I'm not talking about "you have bitterness, so you get cancer." I am talking about directly-related sin. In such cases, do not dare assign the evils of sickness to the goodness of God. He says, in Deuteronomy 30:19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live ..."

God has made every possible provision for man to receive the fullness of the promises of God. If someone is sick, it does not indicate that they are either holy, or in sin. It just means they got sick, period, and that Jesus can heal them, regardless of if their sickness came by disobedience, or by some bad meat from the Kroger Sav-On! People need to quit trying to spiritualize sickness, whether to justify staying sick when God wants you healed [because "God's trying to teach me something"], or whether to blame someone for their condition ["you lack faith"; "repent of that secret sin!"; "you got sick because you made God mad because you didn't tithe"].

We need to get it through our heads: sin is spiritual; sickness is physical!

God does not teach by sickness; "But God hath revealed them [the things of God] unto us BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

Does the Bible say, "But God hath revealed them unto us by Sickness: for Sickness searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God"?

NO! The Holy Spirit Himself is the teacher!

People say, "God put this sickness on me", then they go to the doctor to get healed! If God put the sickness on you and it is His will, then you are in sin and rebellion to try to get healing, because God's will is for you to be sick. The fact is, that you think God wants you healed, or else you would stay away from the doctor. You say, "God works through doctors", then you go to the doctor, so you must ACTUALLY believe that God wants you healed, which is evidenced by the fact that you are going to "God's will", the doctor.

When Jesus delayed to go heal Lazarus, he abode two days still in the same place where He was. He wasn't holding off on Lazarus - HE SIMPLY WASN'T FINISHED DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHERE HE WAS. Look a few verses up, at John 10:40. "And [Jesus] went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode." Now, this same "place where John at first baptized", where Jesus "abode", was the place mentioned again in John 11:6, eight verses later. Let us compare the two.

John 10:40 - "And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode."

John 11:6 - "When he had heard therefore that he [Lazarus] was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was."

"The same place" in 11:6 is the "same place" He was in 10:40. My point in all of this is that Jesus was focused on doing the will of the Father, in getting his rest at that place. He wasn't trying to avoid Lazarus, but he was doing the will of the Father, by staying where He was. I believe the devil tried to throw this monkey wrench in Jesus' works, to try to get him distracted from the purpose of the Father in the place where He was staying.

It wasn't that Jesus did NOT care about Lazarus, but he had to complete what he was doing first, before He could tend to Lazarus. AND ... He DID end up healing him.

I hope all this helps answer the question of "the will of God" and suffering and all of that. Point is, when you know the will of God, why do you pray, "if it be thy will"? If it IS his will, then it IS. "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: and if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." [I John 5:14,15]

You guys need to read "The Power Of Prayer And The Prayer Of Power" by R.A. Torrey. True prayer is definite, prevailing prayer that is very specific in its request. The reason many people do not get their prayers answered is because they never prayed them. They just left it open-ended and never got specific with God about what they wanted, down to the last detail.

People would come to Jesus, and He would say, "What wilt thou that I should do unto thee?" And then, EVERY time, when they said, "Lord, if thou wilt", or "Lord, if it be thy will", His response ALWAYS was, "I will; be thou clean", or "I will; be healed."

He ALWAYS put the ball in THEIR court. What do YOU want God to do for you, in very specific terms? It is yours for the asking! And his will is to do GOOD things for you. Look at Eden before sin, and Heaven after the devil is wiped out. Come on. It is so obvious to me that God's will is total blessing.

 

[Questioning Christian]

And if you still question whether God's will is plain and obvious, consider 31,102 verses in 1189 chapters in 66 volumes in one book of the mind of God revealed. Consider that He sent His holy prophets, apostles, and messengers throughout the ages. Consider that He sent His only begotten Son to proclaim the message, which message has endured for two, two, two, count 'em, TWO millenia since His arrival into this earth.

Look out the window and see the sun rise every day and the moon rise every night. Consider the 23 1/4 degree tilt on the earth's axis that creates 4 seasons of equal length, and of individual differentiating charatcteristics. Consider the distance of the earth from the sun, that it is neither too close, nor too far away, that we are neither too hot nor too cold, that it is the perfect distance for human, animal, plant, and other ecological life. Consider that no two snowflakes or fingerprints are alike. Consider that the galaxies are ever-expanding and ever-improving. Consider that the tiniest of entities, the sperm and the egg, can interact upon one another, and in that moment of time, produce a human life form which can grow from the initial invisible size into someone who is about 68 inches tall and who can live for about 75 years. Consider that your body heals itself naturally, and no matter what happens to it, it always makes a rebound and comes back with incredible resilience. Consider the intricate and complex nature of the system of chromosomal technology invented by the living God, in the human bodily expression.

Psalm 139 -

O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
____________________________________

If you sit and think about all these marvels, and still wonder what is on God's mind, you, my friend, need to think again.

 

[Strong in Him]

Wow. I am utterly amazed an astounded at the illogical conclusions that one draws when someone suggests that Job may have been responsible for the hedge being gone. Heaven forbid we take responsibility for our own actions. Must be the will of GAWD.

But you and a few others on here, are the only people I know to come up with this theory about Job's hedge of protection no longer exisitng because Job had broken it down through fear. Other people read what the Scripture says - that Satan pointed out to God that Job had a hedge of protection around him, that's why he was blessed and that's why he feared God. That if Job were to lose all his blessings, then he would curse God. God said "ok, he is in your hands" and Satan went off to do it. Yes, Job did say "what I feared has come upon me", but it doesn't say anywhere that this fear caused the hedge to be broken and Satan to get in. That is an interpretation that has been put on to the story by others; those who don't want to accept that the explanation we are given is the correct one. God allowing something like illness and loss does rather ruin the theory that God always wants healing and prosperity for all his children.

Maybe because they weren't doing anything that required them to make a sacrifice Job was making sacrifices, "just in case". That my friend is fear.

Yes, if it were true. It might be, but Scripture doesn't say that Job was making the sacrifices out of fear, so again it has to be an interpretation. The suggestion that Job's children didn't know God and he was sacrificing on their behalf is also an interpretation. We don't know, so we can't claim that it is proof of something.

Ah, the old, "it didn't happen to the other guy, so it must be untrue" reasoning. This comes from the same mindset of people looking for formulas for healing. Guess what? God doesn't operate the same way every time. If He did, we wouldn't need to trust Him.

Well actually I didn't say that it was untrue. The argument seems to be that Satan caused all Job's problems and the reason he did so was because Job was afraid and let him into his life. (Ie it WAS Job's fault.) I was just wondering, if this was the root cause of all suffering, why other people who had done far worse than he, suffered far less.

Funnily enough I agree completely with what you say about God and healing. He doesn't operate the same way each time. He can heal at services, or away from them; in a group with the laying on of hands, or when a person is alone. He can heal people who have never heard of the concept of claiming their healing and making positive confession, as well as those who have. Which is why it irritates me when people say "you haven't been healed becuase .........", usually providing a list of things that the sufferer needs to do. Especially if they claim that they have done all these things which is why they are healthy. God heals, and can do so without our help.

Let God be God. If he wants to allow evil to triumph, or appear to, for a short while so that it will finally be defeated, he is allowed to. He allows this world to contine, when he could have brought it to an end 2,000 odd years ago. According to revelation, the devil will be let loose on the earth for 1,000 years, the antichrist will perform miracles to try to lure people away from God. He will allow that, for a short while, before the end comes. On the cross it looked as though evil had triumphed, God allowed people to think that, and allowed the crucifixion, with all its suffering, to happen.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Making theology from Job is just a bad idea. Bad idea. Bad theology.
Make theology from Jesus. That what He came for.

 

[lismore]

To me Job is all about this:

Job 9

33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,

34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more. 35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.


1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Why does God put the story of Job in the bible? Well to show you the length he has gone to that we might have the mediator and might be able to approach the throne of God with confidence. Jesus Christ is the mediator with God and is God at the same time.

people who do not accept Jesus have nothing. Thats what Job is saying as far as I can see. If the blood is not on the doorpost, death will not passover. If you do not have Jesus the veil has not been torn and you will not have access to the throneroom of God. An unreachable unknowable God is what you will have.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

This whole "allowed" things to happen is just a strange idea. What does that mean? What significance is there in allowing or not allowing something to happen? Where does the scripture use this terminology and logic? It is odd so see so much theology based on what seems to be smoke and mirrors. It is just an manifestation of the obsession that we have that says God has to be in total control of every atom at all times. Why are we so obsessed with this requirement? Why are we willing to sacrifice the goodness of God just so we can say He was in control? Why do we cast aside the revelation of God as perfectly displayed by Jesus?
Using the word "allow" does not remove the responsibility for the act from God. In this scenario satan is God's right hand man in the affliction of Job. Using the word "allow" does not remove the culpability from God. If God was in control, then God did it. Using word "allow" simply displays how uncomfortable it is for us to see God in this way. Perhaps we should listen to that discomfort and see God with the Jesus revelation rather than this "God and satan are buddies" mode.
Mere theism gone to seed.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Good points Lis...
But some of the posts on this thread seem to be saying that Job did not need a saviour because he was perfect in Gods eyes. He was a righteous man and did absolutely nothing wrong. This is the cornerstone of their position. If Job was perfect then what happened to him was absolutely no fault of his own. God "allowed" (sic) a perfectly righteous man to suffer and so we can expect the same. So where does a saviour (or need for a saviour) fit into this story when God "allows"(sic) the righteous to suffer with or without a saviour? What good is a saviour to Job or anyone else if God can and will ignore the salvation and inflict us anyways???? If God can overrule the work of the saviour, then how do we know He (letting "God be God") will not "allow"(sic) the righteous to be cast into hell and elevate the wicked into heaven. How do we know satan will not saunter up into heaven and pull this same trick against us and "goad" God into testing us by casting us into hell as a test of our integrity? We do not. God, in this view, is totally unreliable. We have no clue what He is going to do. He can keep His word or He can flip flop at any time? Where is there any basis for faith in this? There is none.

This is a picture of a pretty gullible God who can be tricked or talked into "allowing"(sic) the murder and destruction of a family based on what appears to be nothing more than a bet.

To me Job is all about this:

Job 9

33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,

34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more. 35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.


1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Why does God put the story of Job in the bible? Well to show you the length he has gone to that we might have the mediator and might be able to approach the throne of God with confidence. Jesus Christ is the mediator with God and is God at the same time.

people who do not accept Jesus have nothing. Thats what Job is saying as far as I can see. If the blood is not on the doorpost, death will not passover. If you do not have Jesus the veil has not been torn and you will not have access to the throneroom of God. An unreachable unknowable God is what you will have.

 

[JimB]

This whole "allowed" things to happen is just a strange idea. What does that mean? What significance is there in allowing or not allowing something to happen? Where does the scripture use this terminology and logic? It is odd so see so much theology based on what seems to be smoke and mirrors. It is just an manifestation of the obsession that we have that says God has to be in total control of every atom at all times. Why are we so obsessed with this requirement? Why are we willing to sacrifice the goodness of God just so we can say He was in control? Why do we cast aside the revelation of God as perfectly displayed by Jesus?
Using the word "allow" does not remove the responsibility for the act from God. In this scenario satan is God's right hand man in the affliction of Job. Using the word "allow" does not remove the culpability from God. If God was in control, then God did it. Using word "allow" simply displays how uncomfortable it is for us to see God in this way. Perhaps we should listen to that discomfort and see God with the Jesus revelation rather than this "God and satan are buddies" mode.
Mere theism gone to seed.

So, are you saying that sometimes God is not in control of His universe – that He has created a monster He cannot control? That is scary.

Actually, Dids, I have no problem saying God “caused” Job’s suffering/sickness despite the incredible looks I get from your camp when I suggest that.

I believe – and this is at the heart of my personal faith – that God loves me and has my best interest at heart. So, all things, good or bad, are working for my good. My momentary light afflictions are actually working for me. I also believe God is more interested in my ultimate development as a Christian witness than in my immediate comfort. Take Job for example.

You seem to infer that a believers only purpose for existence is to live worry-free, pain-free lives of financial prosperity and good health (though none of us are perfectly healthy – do you wear glasses or have fillings in your teeth? - or could ever be prosperous by God’s standard – what is a million dollars to God?) and God’s only purpose is to insure that we are comfortable (by our standards of comfort).

What an empty and shallow view of life, Dids, especially in the light of verses like the following:

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. 2 Corinthians 4
--
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5
--
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8
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67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word. Psalm 119
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3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Psalm 32
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3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Romans 5
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1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15
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6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. 1 Peter 1
--
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12
--
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 2 Corinthians 1
--
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 1 Corinthians 12


​

 

[lismore]

God "allowed" (sic) a perfectly righteous man to suffer and so we can expect the same.

God did allow a perfectly righteous person to suffer, so that by his wounds we could be healed and also reconciled to himself. The veil is gone, we can go through where the veil used to be to reach the throne-room of God with confidence. Poor job didnt have a clue what was going on. We however, should know the reasons and solutions to spiritual things. God is the revealer of secrets and there is now no longer any barrier to us speaking freely and confidently with him.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

So correct me if I am wrong.
You are basically saying that you are willing to sacrifice the goodness, faithfulness, integrity, and reliabilty of God just so you can say He is "in control?"

You are correct. I am willing to relinquish the concept that He is micro managing the universe to the end that those attributes are maintained. Else we have 0 reason to believe... rather we have every reason to doubt, fear, and actually expect the worst from God.

So, are you saying that sometimes God is not in control of His universe – that He has created a monster He cannot control? That is scary.

Actually, Dids, I have no problem saying God “caused” Job’s suffering/sickness despite the incredible looks I get from your camp when I suggest that.

I believe – and this is at the heart of my personal faith – that God loves me and has my best interest at heart. So, all things, good or bad, are working for my good. My momentary light afflictions are actually working for me. I also believe God is more interested in my ultimate development as a Christian witness than in my immediate comfort. Take Job for example.

You seem to infer that a believers only purpose for existence is to live worry-free, pain-free lives of financial prosperity and good health (though none of us are perfectly healthy – do you wear glasses or have fillings in your teeth? - or could ever be prosperous by God’s standard – what is a million dollars to God?) and God’s only purpose is to insure that we are comfortable (by our standards of comfort).

What an empty and shallow view of life, Dids, especially in the light of verses like the following:

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. 2 Corinthians 4
--
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5
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22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8
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67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word. Psalm 119
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3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Psalm 32
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3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Romans 5
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1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15
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6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. 1 Peter 1
--
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12
--
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 2 Corinthians 1
--
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 1 Corinthians 12


​

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Of course the "perfectly righteous" man I was referring to was Job... who had no need of a saviour or salvation.
What good is reconciliation and the gospel if it can just be overruled based on a bet with satan? How can we have faith in a God who is not good. He is all powerful and "in control"... and so He powerfully controls you into doom. Great!

God did allow a perfectly righteous person to suffer, so that by his wounds we could be healed and also reconciled to himself. The veil is gone, we can go through where the veil used to be to reach the throne-room of God with confidence. Poor job didnt have a clue what was going on. We however, should know the reasons and solutions to spiritual things. God is the revealer of secrets and there is now no longer any barrier to us speaking freely and confidently with him.

 

[lismore]

What good is reconciliation and the gospel if it can just be overruled based on a bet with satan?

The way I see it is that God is just and merciful. By rights we should all pay for what we have done and the bible says there is no-one righteous, not even one.

But God is merciful so he sent Jesus Christ and gives us imputed righteousness through him.

Now God has to reveal the justice before the mercy, because mercy cannot exist unless the penalty is revealed first.

Therefore God says to us through the story of Job: this is what life of a 'righteous' person would be without Jesus.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Yet the concepts being presented here are the opposite. God is certainly not merciful, Job was perfect(and therefore in no need of mercy, hedges, saviours, or any other divine help. The righteousness of Job (according to the conta) is his own.

The way I see it is that God is just and merciful. By rights we should all pay for what we have done and the bible says there is no-one righteous, not even one.

But God is merciful so he sent Jesus Christ and gives us imputed righteousness through him.

Now God has to reveal the justice before the mercy, because mercy cannot exist unless the penalty is revealed first.

Therefore God says to us through the story of Job: this is what life of a 'righteous' person would be without Jesus.

 

[probinson]

But you and a few others on here, are the only people I know to come up with this theory about Job's hedge of protection no longer exisitng because Job had broken it down through fear.

That's not the least bit surprising. Until I came to this forum, I NEVER heard anyone try to place the blame on God for Job's suffering. What's that tell you? That we hang out in different circles.

Other people read what the Scripture says

Uh, no. Other people interpret the scriptures differently. Clearly neither of us has a full grasp of the story of Job.

- that Satan pointed out to God that Job had a hedge of protection around him, that's why he was blessed and that's why he feared God.

If you want to take Satan's word for it, that's your perogative. But when Satan said there was a hedge, God said, look again pal.

That if Job were to lose all his blessings, then he would curse God. God said "ok, he is in your hands" and Satan went off to do it. Yes, Job did say "what I feared has come upon me", but it doesn't say anywhere that this fear caused the hedge to be broken and Satan to get in. That is an interpretation that has been put on to the story by others; those who don't want to accept that the explanation we are given is the correct one.

We are not given a defnitive explanation. You see your answer as "the one we are given" where I see your explanation as a "bad interpretation" and vice versa for you. You don't have all the answers. Neither do I.

God allowing something like illness and loss does rather ruin the theory that God always wants healing and prosperity for all his children.

It doesn't ruin my "theory" any. Quite the contrary, it shows me that all of the things that Job suffered, God healed. It actually gives me quite a great hope!

Yes, if it were true. It might be, but Scripture doesn't say that Job was making the sacrifices out of fear, so again it has to be an interpretation. The suggestion that Job's children didn't know God and he was sacrificing on their behalf is also an interpretation. We don't know, so we can't claim that it is proof of something.

Precisely. As 9-I pointed out, the story of Job is a bit perplexing. You will see it in the light that best fits your beliefs. So why are we creating doctrine on something that is so uncertain? Why will people point to Job, one man in the Bible, as the justification for God allowing sickness when Jesus came and clearly showed the will of the Father was to heal? Does the story of Job, which predates Jesus by quite a bit, negate the work that Jesus did on the cross? Should we point to Job as our justification for our suffering? And if Job is the end-all be-all for why God will allow suffering, why don't they tell the whole story? (Job suffered for less than 1% of his life. God healed him. God restored twice what Job had before. It is never recorded that Job was sick EVER again.)

Well actually I didn't say that it was untrue. The argument seems to be that Satan caused all Job's problems and the reason he did so was because Job was afraid and let him into his life. (Ie it WAS Job's fault.) I was just wondering, if this was the root cause of all suffering, why other people who had done far worse than he, suffered far less.

The argument is we open the door for Satan to attack us by our sin, disobedience, fear, unbelief, doubt, stupid decisions, etc. Why do some people suffer more than others? I have no idea.

Funnily enough I agree completely with what you say about God and healing. He doesn't operate the same way each time. He can heal at services, or away from them; in a group with the laying on of hands, or when a person is alone. He can heal people who have never heard of the concept of claiming their healing and making positive confession, as well as those who have. Which is why it irritates me when people say "you haven't been healed becuase .........", usually providing a list of things that the sufferer needs to do. Especially if they claim that they have done all these things which is why they are healthy. God heals, and can do so without our help.

You will rarely if ever hear me say "you haven't been healed because....." I have no idea.

Let God be God. If he wants to allow evil to triumph, or appear to, for a short while so that it will finally be defeated, he is allowed to. He allows this world to contine, when he could have brought it to an end 2,000 odd years ago. According to revelation, the devil will be let loose on the earth for 1,000 years, the antichrist will perform miracles to try to lure people away from God. He will allow that, for a short while, before the end comes. On the cross it looked as though evil had triumphed, God allowed people to think that, and allowed the crucifixion, with all its suffering, to happen.

Job suffered for just a few months. God allowed the crucifixon of Jesus to happen. Jesus rose again 3 days later. Seems silly to use these examples as reasoning for our life long sufferings.

 

[JimB]

So correct me if I am wrong.
You are basically saying that you are willing to sacrifice the goodness, faithfulness, integrity, and reliabilty of God just so you can say He is "in control?"

You are correct. I am willing to relinquish the concept that He is micro managing the universe to the end that those attributes are maintained. Else we have 0 reason to believe... rather we have every reason to doubt, fear, and actually expect the worst from God.

What?

Okay, then, you are wrong.

Because He is true I can trust His goodness, faithfulness, integrity, and reliability. And because He is God ... like, the Creator of the Entire Universe ... I believe He is in control. Sorry, I don’t get your point.

Nor does that mean that I think God micro-manages the universe, although I believe that, because of His foreknowledge, nothing is beyond His control.

I could make a snide remark here, but I will let the temptation pass.

~Jim

 

[lismore]

Yet the concepts being presented here are the opposite. God is certainly not merciful, Job was perfect(and therefore in no need of mercy, hedges, saviours, or any other divine help. The righteousness of Job (according to the conta) is his own.

Job was looking forward to being redeemed:

Job 19:25 NIV
I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

These people all longed to see Jesus come and to live in the days we live in. We have the complete word and the Holy Spirit within us. Job didnt have what we have.

You cant really be grateful that Jesus came until you read things like Job or the OT law. The law came through Moses- grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The law shows God's justice, Jesus shows God's mercy. Job shows how life would look without Jesus our advocate speaking on our behalf. When satan accuses Jesus speaks up for us.

 

[JimB]

Yet the concepts being presented here are the opposite. God is certainly not merciful, Job was perfect(and therefore in no need of mercy, hedges, saviours, or any other divine help. The righteousness of Job (according to the conta) is his own.

Of course God is merciful.

Job was perfect. That does not mean he was sinless. Here are some synonyms for “perfect” – true, straight, genuine, whole, complete, unadulterated, accomplished, adept, consummate, epitome, crowning, excellent, excelling, exemplar, ideal, impeccable, masterly, matchless, peerless, sound, splendid, sublime, superb, supreme, unequaled - none of which means sinless.

Mercy may involve pain. When a surgeon takes a scalpel and opens up the chest of a heart patient, he is showing mercy although it is inflicting injury on the patient. But the injury is for the patient’s good. When a parent spats the hand of a child who insists on reaching for a hot iron, she may inflict some pain but she is showing mercy because she knows something that the child does not know. A hot iron can cause severe injury and scars if she allows the child to have his own way.

Let’s say God knows something I do not know. Let’s say, for instance, that God knows that a fatal accident awaits me if I leave the house. So I come down with a virus that is so severe it keeps me from leaving home. Unknown to me, I have been saved from a fatality. You, also not knowing what awaited me if I had left the house, would (I think) say it was the Devil that made me sick because that is what your theology dictates. I would say that it was the mercy of God that made me sick. What is a virus to God? He can heal it in a snap. For that matter, what is AIDS or cancer to God?

You can magnify this in a thousand different ways but it all boils down to – God knows but we don’t. His job is to love and care according to His endless mercy and as He sees fit. Our job is to trust Him no matter what circumstances tell us.

~Jim

 

[Christina M]

Let’s say God knows something I do not know. Let’s say, for instance, that God knows that a fatal accident awaits me if I leave the house. So I come down with a virus that is so severe it keeps me from leaving home. Unknown to me, I have been saved from a fatality. You, also not knowing what awaited me if I had left the house, would (I think) say it was the Devil that made me sick because that is what your theology dictates. I would say that it was the mercy of God that made me sick. What is a virus to God? He can heal it in a snap. For that matter, what is AIDS or cancer to God?

You can magnify this in a thousand different ways but it all boils down to – God knows but we don’t. His job is to love and care according to His endless mercy and as He sees fit. Our job is to trust Him no matter what circumstances tell us.

~Jim

God certainly doesn't have to resort to putting viruses on people to talk to them..... If one listens ---and obeys---- God does not have to use evil to teach you.

 

[probinson]

Let’s say God knows something I do not know. Let’s say, for instance, that God knows that a fatal accident awaits me if I leave the house. So I come down with a virus that is so severe it keeps me from leaving home. Unknown to me, I have been saved from a fatality.

What an incredibly limiting view of God.

Why couldn't God simply say, hey Jim, take a different route than you normally take? Or stay home today, because something bad is going to happen. Indeed, there are stories of this very thing happening on the morning of 9/11.

God has done this very thing with me. He's told me, turn here. Then I find out later that there was an accident down the road that had I not listened and turned I may well have been involved in.

No severe virus required. No forceful manipulation from the heavenlies. Just a son obeying his Father.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you want to take Satan's word for it, that's your perogative. But when Satan said there was a hedge, God said, look again pal.

I don't take Satan's word for anything. It says in my Bible that Satan told God that Job only feared him because he, the Lord, protected (hedge) and blessed him. He went onto say that if God were to "strike everything he has", then it would be a different story and Job would curse him. Nowhere does God say "there is no hedge, I have not been protecting or keeping him safe."

It doesn't ruin my "theory" any. Quite the contrary, it shows me that all of the things that Job suffered, God healed. It actually gives me quite a great hope.

I didn't mean that it was your personal theory. I meant that the teaching that God only and always wants good things for his children is somewhat diminished by the story of Job. Unless people ignore what the first two chapters say and teach the message that Job was formerly a Godfearing man who allowed the devil into his life through fear, and the devil caused him to lose everything. In which case, whatever the Bible says, it was nothing to do with God; Job's suffering was his own fault.

You will rarely if ever hear me say "you haven't been healed because....." I have no idea.

I'm sure you don't and you haven't, and again I didn't mean to make it personal. But I have come across that attitude from others - both on this forum and those I have met. Unless there is a clear word of knowledge from the Lord, no one knows why someone else hasn't been healed - but that doesn't seem to stop some Christians from offering an opinion. And what it seems to boil down to, as with Job, is "God wants everyone well. Your continued illness is nothing to do with him, it must be down to you."

Job suffered for just a few months. God allowed the crucifixon of Jesus to happen. Jesus rose again 3 days later. Seems silly to use these examples as reasoning for our life long sufferings.

I'm not talking about the length of time that a person suffers, I'm talking about the fact that it happens, and where God is in all of it. We, Job, Jesus, Paul pray to be healed/spared/delivered from something and it doesn't happen. Evil/sickness/the trial remains. I have no problem with saying that it is God who sometimes allows it to remain for a short time, either because he sees it will refine us, increase our faith or dependancy on him, teach us patience, compassion or whatever; or that he allows it to remain for the good of others. Jesus' suffering comes into that latter category. Other people - and not just some that I have met on this forum either - say that that is wrong and cannot be. God does not allow things like that to happen, or evil to remain. God always wants good things for his followers, and could not allow anything negative to cross their paths. If we have a problem, it's the devil, and it is we who can allow it to remain by our faith, or whatever. God always wants to heal.

So based on this argument, my questions have been a) what about the cross? God allowed and caused that suffering, and it was entirely for the benefit of others; b) what about this world? It's still here, with all the evil that goes on in it. God is delaying the time of Jesus' return and Scripture says that this is for our benefit (our as in 'mankind') so that people may come to repentance. In the parable of the wheat and the tares the farmer allowed the two to grow together, as pulling up the tares might have otherwise damaged the wheat.

If sickness and evil are still in the world, and God does not allow them or will them, then why doesn't he do something about it? I can only see two alternatives. 1) That the devil is in control, God has no power to do anything about it (which should mean that no one ever gets healed/saved), and in fact the devil sneaked the trial past God when he wasn't looking, so it's nothing to do with him at all. or 2) That God really, really wants us all to be healed. If we are not, then, whatever we might say, it must be because deep down we want to remain sick, it's such fun after all, isn't it, and are denying him the chance to heal by holding on to sin, or whatever. In which case this boils down to "it's the sufferers fault", however devout and believing they are.