Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

[stone]

i didn't realize this thread had converted to the topic of salvation through christ?

However, you do realize that you now are speaking as those that father rebuked at the end of the book of Job?

 

[Strong in Him]

This is a ridiculous conclusion that clearly no one here advocates. I could say I'm insulted, but luckily, I've put childish things behind me.

Well will you please tell me what the other possibilities are then?

Supposing someone prays for physical healing, doesn't immediately receive it, or even receive it over the next few months/years. They don't understand why this is, they examine their hearts, go for counselling, endless prayer and even deliverance. They go to further services and praise God for hearing their prayers and giving his healing, but still have the physical condition. What's going on? Is it that God can't hear their prayers because, despite everything, they and their friends do not have enough faith? Do the symptoms remain because the sufferer is so firmly in the grip of the devil that God can't get a look in, or do they remain because deep down the sufferer really enjoys being an invalid and these requests for prayer and the laying on of hands are just attention seeking?

If God does not, and cannot, allow symptoms to remain in a believer but they still do, then there must be some other explanation.

I can tell you that I have sat in church services at times feeling that I can't cope any more, and begging God to step in and do something. On every occasion there has been a Bible reading about persevering in suffering, trusting God or running the race with our eyes fixed on Jesus. Most times there is also the hymn Great is thy Faithfulness" with its wonderful line "strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow." Other times I have gone forward at a healing service intending to ask for physical healing, and either found myself talking about something else, or I've found that I've been given a word about persevering, trusting God or being refined like gold.

I am not saying that God has ever said to me, "well Gill, I gave you M.E to teach you to trust me. It is my gift to you, and you'd better not ask to be rid of it." I have an illness, my inclination is to go to God and the doctors to get rid of it. But when I have several experiences like the ones I just described, when I spend time in the presence of the Healing God and he tells me that he will make me whole, but the physical symptoms still continue, when I know that I have become closer to him during the last 15 years, and suspect that this would not be the case had I been healed immediately (though I'll never know; what should I think? That all this is a mistake?

 

[stone]

And the L-RD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the L-RD.
***


you appear to forget that father allowed this

 

[JimB]

where do you see Job repenting?

I recall he wished he had not been born, looks to me like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time is all.

Of course Job repented. Job 42.6, “Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

~Jim

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

And the L-RD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the L-RD.
***


you appear to forget that father allowed this

Take a few moments and read the first half of the thread and you will see that many contend that this is not case.

"Behold.... the rest of the thread is yours to read."

Now... did I just give you permission to do something that you already had permission to do?

Of course not.

Did I have to say that statement before you could do it?

Nope.

The entire "allow this and that" is bogus.
God "allows" just about everything that happens to you. That "allowance" is a given. He "allows" everything but does not direct everything.

There is the general misconception that the will of God and the move of God are directly linked together and therefore His will is automatically implemented in creation. NOT SO! It is His will that noone perish... but they certainly are.

 

[JimB]

Take a few moments and read the first half of the thread and you will see that many contend that this is not case.

*****

Then, on the other hand, some will agree with you, Stone.

~Jim

 

[stone]

Of course Job repented. Job 42.6, “Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

~Jim

Job 42:1-6 1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
***

You are thinking that job repented of sin, he did not, he is repenting for :

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not

***

He now realizes that there are things the l-rd shall accomplish that man will not understand, to think that he could attempt to comprehend the knowlwdge of father he is repenting for .

 

[stone]

Take a few moments and read the first half of the thread and you will see that many contend that this is not case.

"Behold.... the rest of the thread is yours to read."

Now... did I just give you permission to do something that you already had permission to do?

Of course not.

Did I have to say that statement before you could do it?

Nope.

The entire "allow this and that" is bogus.
God "allows" just about everything that happens to you. That "allowance" is a given. He "allows" everything but does not direct everything.

There is the general misconception that the will of God and the move of God are directly linked together and therefore His will is automatically implemented in creation. NOT SO! It is His will that noone perish... but they certainly are.

and you too have placed yourself within those rebuked by father at the end of the book of Job. He say you know how g-d works?

 

[JimB]

Job 42:1-6 1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
***

You are thinking that job repented of sin, he did not, he is repenting for :

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not

***

He now realizes that there are things the l-rd shall accomplish that man will not understand, to think that he could attempt to comprehend the knowlwdge of father he is repenting for .

Well, I guess this is debatable. But, then, that’s what I’m here for.

~Jim

 

[JimfromOhio]

Humility is a great quality for a Christian to live in because genuine humility is the strength and the result of God's grace and not of ourselves. From Job's point of view, he repented because of his lack of knowledge of God Almight which translates that he repented for his ignorant of God's Character. Which God didn't view as sin but rather in GREAT FAITH because Job trusted God completely regardless. Job did accept the guilt of his friends' sin against God so he blamed himself and prayed to God to forgive his friends. Job had GREAT faith that leaped of pure trust into the arms of God, “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). The Book of Job have helped me that even at the most unfavorable of circumstances, we can collapse into God's strength and there experience His amazing grace. Now, that's humility. It is always bad to blame anyone or anything for our unfavorable circumstances. The true Christian is able to live and grow in circumstances that are very unfavorable. Those unfavorable circumstances will help in a spiritual way requires us to have complete FAITH in Him. Spiritual transformation is the mind of renewal which are forced by circumstances. Circumstances creates patterns of thought, attitudes, habits that the Holy Spirit wants to replace with Fruit of the Spirits and true walk of Faith.

I am one of the "Jobs".

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Nobody said anything about sin Stone...
He repented of shooting his mouth off about things he did not know anything about. For instance, he said "the lord gives and the lord takes away....'
But the lord took nothing away.... it was satan. Therefore... repent time.

Job 42:1-6 1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
***

You are thinking that job repented of sin, he did not, he is repenting for :

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not

***

He now realizes that there are things the l-rd shall accomplish that man will not understand, to think that he could attempt to comprehend the knowlwdge of father he is repenting for .

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

and you too have placed yourself within those rebuked by father at the end of the book of Job. He say you know how g-d works?

Absolutely. We have the mind of Christ and we can know everything we need to know about God. He is no longer a mystery and beyond us. Jesus came to show the Father to us... and He did not fail!

 

[probinson]

Well will you please tell me what the other possibilities are then?

Why? I've explained repeatedly my stance. It is continually twisted and distorted into something that doesn't even resemble where I stand.

Supposing someone prays for physical healing, doesn't immediately receive it, or even receive it over the next few months/years. They don't understand why this is, they examine their hearts, go for counselling, endless prayer and even deliverance. They go to further services and praise God for hearing their prayers and giving his healing, but still have the physical condition. What's going on?

Perhaps they're more concerned with their healing than the healer.

Is it that God can't hear their prayers because, despite everything, they and their friends do not have enough faith?

That's quite possible.

Do the symptoms remain because the sufferer is so firmly in the grip of the devil that God can't get a look in, or do they remain because deep down the sufferer really enjoys being an invalid and these requests for prayer and the laying on of hands are just attention seeking?

The devil is no match for God, so your first assertion is absurd.

However, yes, there are people who are looking for attention with their illness and even some that consider it a gift from God.

I am not saying that God has ever said to me, "well Gill, I gave you M.E to teach you to trust me. It is my gift to you, and you'd better not ask to be rid of it." I have an illness, my inclination is to go to God and the doctors to get rid of it. But when I have several experiences like the ones I just described, when I spend time in the presence of the Healing God and he tells me that he will make me whole, but the physical symptoms still continue, when I know that I have become closer to him during the last 15 years, and suspect that this would not be the case had I been healed immediately (though I'll never know; what should I think? That all this is a mistake?

I'm truly sorry you feel this way. I can speak only for myself, but sickness and disease neither brings me closer to God nor drives me away from God.

After reading what you posted, I will tell you what I saw:

I saw someone approaching God for their healing, and He's dangling a carrot. Every time they got closer to the carrot, he moves it further away saying, just trust Me. I will make you whole one day. And then they moved closer still to the carrot, and God moved it again.

That just doesn't make any sense and in inconsistent with Jesus. Jesus never said, I'll heal you some day, but keep on perservering in your sickness for a little while longer and when I think you've grown enough, then I'll heal you.

Jesus showed us the will of the Father. Jesus healed EVERYONE that approached Him in faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm truly sorry you feel this way. I can speak only for myself, but sickness and disease neither brings me closer to God nor drives me away from God.

Why are you sorry because I say that I feel closer to God, trust him more and know his love? I didn't say that he made me ill because this was the only way he could achieve this, or that he deliberately made me weak so that he could be all controlling and force me into submission. Illness has brought me closer to God, I seek him, read his word and spend more time being rather than doing. I have grown since becoming ill, this is a fact. If you are saying that you just tolerate illness and it does not bring you any closer to your healer and Saviour at all, that's up to you. But in that case I feel sorry for you.

After reading what you posted, I will tell you what I saw:

I saw someone approaching God for their healing, and He's dangling a carrot. Every time they got closer to the carrot, he moves it further away saying, just trust Me. I will make you whole one day. And then they moved closer still to the carrot, and God moved it again.

Well you'd be wrong. I don't go to healing services that often and I don't spend every day begging for healing, or becoming morbid and introspective when I do not get it. I was sharing what has happened on some occasions when I have spoken to God about healing. Mostly I just get on with life, trusting in the God who meets all my needs.

That just doesn't make any sense and in inconsistent with Jesus. Jesus never said, I'll heal you some day, but keep on perservering in your sickness for a little while longer and when I think you've grown enough, then I'll heal you.

He's not saying that to me either. He's asking me to trust him - keep believing for healing when I can't see evidence of healing. There are hundreds of people who've been told something by God, not seen evidence of it but trusted in his word anyway - Hebrews 11 lists some of them. These are called people of faith, not people who believe that God entices them with a carrot they can never have.

Jesus showed us the will of the Father. Jesus healed EVERYONE that approached Him in faith.

See, call me sensitive, but that immediately says to me that those who have not been healed have not approached him in faith. We're back to Job again; nothing to do with God, it was Job's fault. And there are people who will actually say this to a sufferers face. Putting the responsibilty onto the sufferer absolves them from having to answer questions about non healing.

God knows what he is doing, he will never break his word and his timng is perfect. Just because I can't understand that with my finite mind, and I would prefer him to act when I want him to, it doesn't make it any the less true.

Don't feel sorry for me - I'm rejoicing and growing in the Lord and serving him.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Don't feel sorry for me - I'm rejoicing and growing in the Lord and serving him.

Amen Sister.... God wants us to be strong and He is our spiritual trainer and He will do anything to get us prepared and go for the prize. God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1).

As Job did, persevered is to overcome and conqueoror. 1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Those who are able to endure with strong FAITH shall overcome. 2 Timothy 2:12 "if we endure, we will also reign with him."

2 Corinthians 12:8-10
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Back to Job, the main point, the Book of Job is one of the books in the Bible and being read to understand God's view of situations. If God didn't want the Book of Job part of the Bible, it would not have been written. about a man named Job. He lived in the land of Uz. The book relates details about his family, his life, and his suffering. The book also communicates to us his friends' judgemental interest in his suffering, and the spiritual struggling with his friends' views of God. In the Book of James, James wrote an example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. James commended the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11).

 

[probinson]

If you are saying that you just tolerate illness and it does not bring you any closer to your healer and Saviour at all, that's up to you. But in that case I feel sorry for you.

What I am saying is sickness is not a tool to bring me closer to God. I grow closer to God every day. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with my physical state.

Well you'd be wrong. I don't go to healing services that often and I don't spend every day begging for healing, or becoming morbid and introspective when I do not get it. I was sharing what has happened on some occasions when I have spoken to God about healing. Mostly I just get on with life, trusting in the God who meets all my needs.

What I was explaining was what I saw from your explanation. I wasn't trying to say that's what you do. I was saying that's how I envisioned your explanation.

He's not saying that to me either. He's asking me to trust him - keep believing for healing when I can't see evidence of healing. There are hundreds of people who've been told something by God, not seen evidence of it but trusted in his word anyway - Hebrews 11 lists some of them. These are called people of faith, not people who believe that God entices them with a carrot they can never have.

Oddly enough, we seem to have stumbled upon some semblance of agreement here.

See, call me sensitive, but that immediately says to me that those who have not been healed have not approached him in faith.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. It is a documented fact. EVERYONE that approached Jesus in faith was healed. It is a simple, Biblical fact. That should not be offensive.

We're back to Job again; nothing to do with God, it was Job's fault. And there are people who will actually say this to a sufferers face. Putting the responsibilty onto the sufferer absolves them from having to answer questions about non healing.

Is it possible that it could be the sufferers fault? I'm just curious what you may think about that.

Personally, I don't tell people that they need to have more faith, or they need to this or that or the other thing because I simply don't know their heart.

And don't feel sorry for me. When sickness tries to attach itself to me or my family, I exercise the authority Jesus gave me to send it back where it came from.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I exercise the authority Jesus gave me to send it back where it came from.

Yes.. we have authority however the final authority is the Lord's Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." John 8:16 Jesus said: "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me." Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

James 4:14
Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

 

[probinson]

Yes.. we have authority however the final authority is the Lord's Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." John 8:16 Jesus said: "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me." Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

James 4:14
Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

You have an amazing gift for posting scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[JimfromOhio]

You have an amazing gift for posting scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I say the same to those who have imaginary concept of God that translates that they have a special arrangement with God. That as long as they are faithful and righteous and, in return, God will quickly take care of all the problem issues in their lives. That kind of rationale is based on a wrong understanding of God. God does not promise us a perfect and trouble-free life on this earth. The fact is, all true Christians will suffer while here on earth.

 

[probinson]

I say the same to those who have imaginary concept of God that translates that they have a special arrangement with God. That as long as they are faithful and righteous and, in return, God will quickly take care of all the problem issues in their lives. That kind of rationale is based on a wrong understanding of God. God does not promise us a perfect and trouble-free life on this earth. The fact is, all true Christians will suffer while here on earth.

This post clearly shows me that you have NO IDEA what I believe.

Feel free to suffer.

I will be more than a conqueror.