Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

[9-iron]

We don't have the "lack of faith" trump card, but alas, we pull out the 'bad translation' card. NICE!!

 

[probinson]

So Satan acted on his own authority and has the power to cause suffering whether God wants it or not? Thanks, but I'd rather believe in a sovereign God who has absolute power and authority, and knows exactly what is going on.

NO. That's not what I've said at all.

WE open the door. WE allow Satan entrance. WE do.

Why do you suppose the very first thing recorded in Job is the fact that Job made sacrifices for his children JUST IN CASE they sinned? Job was afraid that his children might sin. So he made sacrifices for them every day, just in case.

Job was in fear. The hole in the hedge.

And as someone else pointed out, Jesus said to Peter, "Satan has asked permission to test you." Did God not give permission but Satan decided to do it anyway? If he had the authority to act on hios own, why does he need to ask God?

Now that Jesus has come and defeated Satan, he has only the power that we allow him.

 

[probinson]

We don't have the "lack of faith" trump card, but alas, we pull out the 'bad translation' card. NICE!!

Look up "Behold" in a dictionary. It's likely you won't see "very well" as the definition.

 

[9-iron]

Dids,

I answered your post in honest. Waiting to hear from you on it. To clarify myself, I'm not looking to debate with you, but rather seek clarity on the matter.

 

[9-iron]

Look up "Behold" in a dictionary. It's likely you won't see "very well" as the definition.

It's all sematics. Spin the translation all you want, but the meaning of the message can't be changed.

 

[probinson]

It's all sematics. Spin the translation all you want, but the meaning of the message can't be changed.

It's not just a matter of semantics or spin. Do these 2 statements mean the same thing?

(From Dids' example)

Behold, the forum is in disagreement.

Very well, the forum can disagree.

 

[9-iron]

Wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round.....

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

My reaction, exactly.

Dids, explain yourself.

~Jim

What part did God play in what happened to Job?

Is it possible that God did not give satan permission to do anything that satan could not have already done?

Consider this:

Satan suggested to God that the only reason Job was such a fine fellow was because of a "hedge" that was around him. It appears satan is not even sure about it because he puts it to God in the form of a question:
Job 1:10
10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath--round about?

(note also that satan was not asking for permission to do anything... he was just questioning God about the existance of a hedge)

Look at the answer God gave satan to this question about an alledged hedge:

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

God answered this questoin about a hedge with this:

"Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand..."

That is not really the same as giving someone permission to do something is it? "Lo", or "Behold" just means "Look". Nothing more. Is it possible that God was just pointing out to satan that there was in fact no hedge?

If so, then the second part of the verse is actually a stipulation. Since the hedge did not exist, and since satan could actually go down and kill Job... God was actually preventing him from doing so. Legally satan could because there was no hedge... but God prevented it.

If these ideas are true, and if in fact the hedge was already down and satan was simply not aware of it, then a question remains:

What happened to the hedge?

I might suggest that Job pushed the hedge down himself by his lack of faith and outright fear and doubt. Peter sank into the sea because of fear.

We see in Job this verse:

Job 3
25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job was actually already fearing these things all the while the hedge was up. It may have been his fear that pushed it down... and God had nothing to do with it... other than to point out the fact to satan.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

The word "behold" simply means "look."
To connect any meaning beyond this is adding to the scripture.

BEHOLD!

The Hebrew word used for "Behold" is:

H2009
hinne^h
hin-nay'
Prolonged for H2005; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
(ASV) And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life.

(BBE) And the Lord said to the Satan, See, he is in your hands, only do not take his life.

(Darby) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life.

(DRB) And the Lord said to Satan: Behold, he is in thy hand, but yet save his life.

(GB) Then the Lord said vnto Satan, Lo, he is in thine hand, but saue his life.

(GW) The LORD told Satan, "He is in your power, but you must spare his life!"

(HNV) The LORD said to Hasatan, "Behold, he is in your hand. Only spare his life."

(KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

(KJVA) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

(LITV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, he is in your hand; but preserve his life.

(MKJV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, he is in your hand, but save his life.

(NASB) So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

(WEB) Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand. Only spare his life."

(Webster) And the LORD said to Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life.

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he is in thy hand; only his life take care of.'

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Dids,

I answered your post in honest. Waiting to hear from you on it. To clarify myself, I'm not looking to debate with you, but rather seek clarity on the matter.

Was Job Poetry and not History?

Things to consider which might support the idea that Job is poetry. The names, places, and numbers in the book of Job are strangely relevant to the events of the book. This would seem to make it a "Pilgrim's Progress" sort of reading and therefore poetry.
Job = "hated (i.e. persecuted)“object of enmity,” "he that weeps or cries"
Eliphaz = "Strength of God"
Bildad = “confusing (by mingling) love” (son of contention)“Bel has loved”
Zophar = "crown" to leap -Zophar seems designed to represent the wrong-headedness of the "odium theologicum".
Buz = "despised; plundered"
Barachel = "God Has Blessed"
Elihu = "he is my God himself"

(after the restoration, the names of the daughters)
Jemimah = "the beauty of the day"
Cassia = "perfume, aroma"
Keren Happuch = an eye coloring that enlarges and accentuates the beauty of the eyes

Job 42:15
Nowhere in the whole country could be found women who were as beautiful as Job's daughters.

Temanit = a land renown for fables, wisdom, and proverbs
Shuhite = from "a pit" or "Depression"
Chaldeans = the land astrologers(as if proverbial of that people)
Sabeans = said to have had giants among them.(Naves Isa_45:14)
Naamathite = from the root "to be agreeable"
Ram = "elevated; sublime"

The numbers used in the book are oddly rounded and also have meanings associated with them:
Job 1:2-3 (KJV)
Exactly seven sons (7)
Exactly three daughters (3)
Exactly seven thousand sheep (7 x 1000)
Exactly three thousand camels (3 x 1000)
Exactly five hundred yoke of oxen
Exactly five hundred she asses


Job 2:13
And they sit with him on the earth seven days and seven nights...

At the end:
Exactly seven sons (7)
Exactly three daughters (3)
Exactly 14,000 sheep and goats (2 x 7 x 1000)
Exactly 6,000 camels (2 x 3 x 1000)
Exactly 2,000 oxen
Exactly1,000 donkeys

Job 42
16 Job lived 140 years after this. He saw his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren.
(140 = 7 x 20)
The events unfold in an oddly poetic way. For example, as the reports of calamity come in they strangely echo each other:
Job 1:15 NASB
15 and the Sabeans attacked and took them. They also slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

Job 1:16 NASB
16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

Job 1:17 NASB
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and took them and slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

Job 1:19 NASB
19 and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died, and I alone have escaped to tell you."

How likely is it that these folks came together and planned out the wordage of their report to match perfectly word for word like this? How likely is it that in each case only one servant would escape? The invading armies might have allowed one to survive for the sole purpose of returning a report. But would wind and lightening be so gracious?

At what time in actual history would these verses be true?
1:3 .....He was the most influential person in the Middle East.
1:8 And the Lord said to him, Hast thou diligently considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a man blameless, true, godly, abstaining from everything evil?

 

[9-iron]

Dids, it is still an issue of sematics! I can't see how you can read this thinking satan wasn't sure if there was even hedge or not.

Come on, stop spinning the issue! Job was righteous, God has His hand over Job so that he was not only protected, but greatly blessed. Satan couldn't touch him until God let up His hand. To read otherwise is just being stubborn or obtuse!!!

 

[Strong in Him]

NO. That's not what I've said at all.

If God didn't give Satan either permission or authority to test Job but Job did, then he is more powerful than God.

WE open the door. WE allow Satan entrance. WE do.

Yes, and by implication illness and suffering is therefore our fault. So never mind that a Christian might submit him/herself to God, want to do his will and receive his healing, if he/she doesn't receive healing it is their own fault for letting Satan in somehow and God can't do anything about it.

Why do you suppose the very first thing recorded in Job is the fact that Job made sacrifices for his children JUST IN CASE they sinned? Job was afraid that his children might sin. So he made sacrifices for them every day, just in case.

I always read that as Job's children were not believers but Job wanted them to be in a right relationship with God, so he made sacrifices on their behalf. In the same sort of way that Paul says that an unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, an unbelieving wife through her husband, and their children are holy. (1 Corinthians 7:14)
If Job's children honoured God and were concerned about their own sin, why didn't they make their own sacrifices?

Job was in fear. The hole in the hedge.

Well I'm sorry, but that just sounds like an excuse to me. It seems as though the teaching is; God can't be responsible for this, because to say that God allowed it would be to acknowledge that He sometimes allows bad things to happen, and we can't have that. So it was from Satan, but how did Satan get to afflict an upright, righteous and God fearing man like Job? Oh, here's a verse - Job was afraid. That was obviously enough to let Satan into his life and wreak havoc on his home, his possessions and his health.

Once again, that means Job is responsible for his own well being, and his suffering was therefore his own fault.

There are other characters in the Bible who showed fear, there are also those who committed adultery, murdered, and doubted or disobeyed God. None of them suffered the same things that Job did.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Is Noah giving the ground premission to be dry here?
Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.


Was this angel giving her permission to bewith child?
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Is someone giving permission for this well to be between Kadesh and Bered?
Genesis 16:14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.


Is Abraham giving Sarah permission to be in this tent?
Genesis 18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.


There are literally hundreds of such examples in the OT where the world "behold" is used for the sole purpose of saying "look" or "see." It has nothing to do with granting permission.

 

[Strong in Him]

There are literally hundreds of such examples in the OT where the world "behold" is used for the sole purpose of saying "look" or "see." It has nothing to do with granting permission.

But God still let Satan go ahead and do it. And if God had been just making a general statement "see he is in your hands" why did he describe Job as a blameless and Godfearing man? Godfearing men are not in the hands of Satan.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

You cannot remove responsibility from someone who grants "premission" to do evil when they are the only thing that is preventing it.

If you give someone permission to rape your wife and kill your children you are just as guilty as the one doing it. The court would find you just as guilty as the one who perpetrated the crime. And rightly so.

 

[9-iron]

Dids, your arguement would probably win this in a court of law. Of course our courts in America are very bias and flawed.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

But God still let Satan go ahead and do it. And if God had been just making a general statement "see he is in your hands" why did he describe Job as a blameless and Godfearing man? Godfearing men are not in the hands of Satan.

Perhaps satan has standing permission to harm whoever he wants due to the fall. If this were not so, then why would anyone need a hedge? This concept that God is personally handing out permission to satan to kill, steal, and destroy really makes God out to be worse than any devil could ever be. It completely destroys any concept or arguement that God is good. It means Jesus completely and utterly failed in showing us this aspect of God. Jesus never did any such thing. The next time you see a women raped, a child murdered, or a young man crippled in the prime of life... ask yourself if God gave satan permission to do that? Is this really your image of God??? Do you seriously think this is what God does?
Lord help us.

 

[9-iron]

Perhaps satan has standing permission to harn whoever he wants due to the fall. If this were not so, then why would anyone need a hedge? This concept that God is personally handing out permission to satan to kill, steal, and destroy really makes God out to be worse than any devil could ever be. It completely destroys any concept or arguement that God is good.

Well I'm confused, but that isn't surprising I don't suppose. I guess I need some reading comprehension because I'm reading your other post in contrare to this one.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Well I'm confused, but that isn't surprising I don't suppose. I guess I need some reading comprehension because I'm reading your other post in contrare to this one.

9I

I am simply suggesting that Satan did not need to ask for permission because he already had it. He knew he had it, and it was a moot point. The issue of "permission" did not even come up.
The issue was one of accusation. Satan alledged that the only reason Job was so cool was because of a "hedge." God answered that allegation by pointing out there was no hedge. Period. Nothing to do with permission. Satan could have gone down and killed Job on the spot... and likely would have if God had not established special protection for the hedgeless Job. I am saying that satan had the right to do what he did as a matter of fallen creation.

There is simply no evidence in this conversation where satan asked for permission or where God granted any. That is all assumed by the theology of the reader who is so inclined.

 

[JimB]

With all respect, Dids, this sounds like fancier footwork than Muhammed Ali. Sorry, I am not buying this explanation. For me, permission is the only (and obvious) answer.

~Jim