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Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

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JimB

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probinson said:
*****

But don't you see that JOB WAS WRONG. We agree that SATAN, not God, afflicted Job. Yet Job said that God had taken away. JOB WAS WRONG. God didn't take anything away from Job. Satan did. Why then does the Bible say that Job did no wrong at this point? Because he didn't know any better.

*****
If you allow drinking at a party and someone drinks too much, becomes inebriated and has a fatal wreck on the way home, who is to blame? I would say both you and the person who drank too much.

God gave permission for Satan to torment Job and cause him suffering. Who then is responsible for Job’s suffering, God or the devil?

Our temptation is to defend God and blame it all on Satan, but God is a big boy and well able to defend Himself. Whatever happens to us, good or bad, is for our benefit. Trusting faith tells us that. I do not think God hides from the fact that sometimes suffering is ordained by Him. After all, our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all, 2 Cor. 4.17.

~Jim
 
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probinson

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Jim M said:
If you allow drinking at a party and someone drinks too much, becomes inebriated and has a fatal wreck on the way home, who is to blame? I would say both you and the person who drank too much.
Who is to blame if YOU drink and drive? YOU! It's too bad that everyone wants to blame someone else. But unfortunately, that's not uncommon in our "pass-the-buck" society where no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.
Jim M said:
God gave permission for Satan to torment Job and cause him suffering. Who then is responsible for Job’s suffering, God or the devil?

:sigh: God did not "give permission".
Jim M said:
Whatever happens to us, good or bad, is for our benefit. Trusting faith tells us that.
What a horrible misapplication of scripture. God is most certainly able to work all things together for good, but many of the bad things that happen to us are a result of our own sin, our own disobedience, our own stupid choices, etc.

I may have to apologize to Job, but you may well have to apologize to God for saying that He "allowed" Satan to afflict Job.
 
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probinson

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9-iron said:
:D That is going to be pretty hard to spin!
It's already been spun, seeing as how the whole idea of God granting "permission" is found nowhere in the book of Job.

Again, if someone says to me, "I could break into your house if the door was unlocked" and I say to them, "Look, the door is unlocked", did I just give them permission to rob me?
 
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JimB

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probinson said:
Who is to blame if YOU drink and drive? YOU! It's too bad that everyone wants to blame someone else. But unfortunately, that's not uncommon in our "pass-the-buck" society where no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

:sigh: God did not "give permission".

What a horrible misapplication of scripture. God is most certainly able to work all things together for good, but many of the bad things that happen to us are a result of our own sin, our own disobedience, our own stupid choices, etc.

I may have to apologize to Job, but you may well have to apologize to God for saying that He "allowed" Satan to afflict Job.
Are you in denial, Pete?

Satan said to God, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (v.1.9-11) (BTW, the devil seemed to believe that only God could cause/allow Job to suffer – he said, stretch out YOUR HAND and strike everything he has).

Then God said, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger" (v.1.12).

Call it what you will, a challenge or consent, it would have never happened if God had not granted permission.

~Jim
 
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Strong in Him

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probinson said:
But don't you see that JOB WAS WRONG. We agree that SATAN, not God, afflicted Job. Yet Job said that God had taken away. JOB WAS WRONG. God didn't take anything away from Job. Satan did.

Satan took them away, but only after he'd had a conversation with God and been told that he could. Satan could not have done anything on his own, and if Job's suffering only came about because of his own fear+the devil's intervention, why is the whole conversation with God recorded in Scripture? If the devil was saying "of course Job honours you, you have blessed him and put a hedge of protection around him", and God's reply was basically "no, there is no hedge of protection," then that means that Job's wealth and good health had nothing to do with his upright and moral character and fear of God. He just happened to be a person who honoured and worshipped God, and a very wealthy one. Therfore Job worshipped God, but God did not protect him especially, or maybe interact in his life in any way. So if his blessings and favoured lifestyle were not as a result of God's protection - as Satan thought - then they were because of Job's hard work, good luck, positive thinking etc? Job himself secured his own good health and blessings, and the reason he suffered was because he let his guard down - he gave in to the fears that he had always haboured - began to think negatively? Thinking negatively somehow gave the devil a foothold in his life, he was able to go out and first kill his family, and then inflict him with sores, and there was nothing God could do about it? Is that the message - that Job's suffering was all his own fault and God couldn't stop it until Job repented of his attitude?

If that's what you're saying then I don't see any point in discussing this any more. This is what bothers me about some people's teaching on healing. It all boils down to "well it's not God's fault so it must be yours." God, apparently, has no control over anything negative; he does not want it to happen, but his "hands are tied" if we decide to allow it to happen. And we apparently can do this by our lack of positive confession/faith, or the "wrong kind of prayer" - asking instead of claiming.

So I'll ask again; did God allow Jesus to suffer? Was it part of his plan that the soldiers would cause him physical pain and then kill him? Did God plan and want the death of his Son? Jesus was God, he was also a human being, who had real bones, blood, nerves and muscles and felt real pain. He was so distressed at the thought of his death that he sweated blood, and asked God to take the cup of suffering away from him. Did God want this?
Jesus went through with it because it was God's will that he should suffer, and the reasons for that were that 1) it was for our good, his death would allow us to come to his Father and have eternal life and 2) it was the way in which the devil would be defeated. An example of God allowing suffering for good reasons.
Also with regards to the second coming; why doesn't God wind up this world now? Because he wants to give people a chance to repent and find him. Evil is being allowed to exist now, for a short time, so that people might be saved.

probinson said:
Why then does the Bible say that Job did no wrong at this point? Because he didn't know any better.

I don't understand that. :confused:
 
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Strong in Him

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probinson said:

:sigh: God did not "give permission".

So Satan acted on his own authority and has the power to cause suffering whether God wants it or not? Thanks, but I'd rather believe in a sovereign God who has absolute power and authority, and knows exactly what is going on.

And as someone else pointed out, Jesus said to Peter, "Satan has asked permission to test you." Did God not give permission but Satan decided to do it anyway? If he had the authority to act on hios own, why does he need to ask God?
 
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JimB

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Strong in Him said:
Satan took them away, but only after he'd had a conversation with God and been told that he could. Satan could not have done anything on his own, and if Job's suffering only came about because of his own fear+the devil's intervention, why is the whole conversation with God recorded in Scripture? If the devil was saying "of course Job honours you, you have blessed him and put a hedge of protection around him", and God's reply was basically "no, there is no hedge of protection," then that means that Job's wealth and good health had nothing to do with his upright and moral character and fear of God. He just happened to be a person who honoured and worshipped God, and a very wealthy one. Therfore Job worshipped God, but God did not protect him especially, or maybe interact in his life in any way. So if his blessings and favoured lifestyle were not as a result of God's protection - as Satan thought - then they were because of Job's hard work, good luck, positive thinking etc? Job himself secured his own good health and blessings, and the reason he suffered was because he let his guard down - he gave in to the fears that he had always haboured - began to think negatively? Thinking negatively somehow gave the devil a foothold in his life, he was able to go out and first kill his family, and then inflict him with sores, and there was nothing God could do about it? Is that the message - that Job's suffering was all his own fault and God couldn't stop it until Job repented of his attitude?

If that's what you're saying then I don't see any point in discussing this any more. This is what bothers me about some people's teaching on healing. It all boils down to "well it's not God's fault so it must be yours." God, apparently, has no control over anything negative; he does not want it to happen, but his "hands are tied" if we decide to allow it to happen. And we apparently can do this by our lack of positive confession/faith, or the "wrong kind of prayer" - asking instead of claiming.

So I'll ask again; did God allow Jesus to suffer? Was it part of his plan that the soldiers would cause him physical pain and then kill him? Did God plan and want the death of his Son? Jesus was God, he was also a human being, who had real bones, blood, nerves and muscles and felt real pain. He was so distressed at the thought of his death that he sweated blood, and asked God to take the cup of suffering away from him. Did God want this?

Jesus went through with it because it was God's will that he should suffer, and the reasons for that were that 1) it was for our good, his death would allow us to come to his Father and have eternal life and 2) it was the way in which the devil would be defeated. An example of God allowing suffering for good reasons.

Also with regards to the second coming; why doesn't God wind up this world now? Because he wants to give people a chance to repent and find him. Evil is being allowed to exist now, for a short time, so that people might be saved.
*****
Wow, Strong One, what a great post.

~Jim


 
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franky67

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9-iron said:
Honestly the whole story of Job does make me a little unsettled. What did God have to prove in this situation? Why would God have to justify anything to Satan? Why would God literally destroy one of His own over Satan's prodding?

This is not about Job, but about God.

Why, indeed, would almighty God have to prove anything to satan ?

God said Job was a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.

If Job was OK with God why would God have to test him ?

And here's the kicker, Scripture says God cannot be tempted by evil.

And yet God told satan, "you incited me against him (Job) without cause."


A word of mouth tale told for 200 years or more, before one of Noah's passengers wrote it down.
 
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JimB

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If, as you say, God is not responsible for Job’s suffering in any way, how do you explain this passage from Job chapter 1:
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

I’m willing to learn.


~Jim
 
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9-iron

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This is not about Job, but about God.

Why, indeed, would almighty God have to prove anything to satan ?


God said Job was a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.

If Job was OK with God why would God have to test him ?

And here's the kicker, Scripture says God cannot be tempted by evil.

And yet God told satan, "you incited me against him (Job) without cause."

The whole thing is very perplexing to me. Honestly, this leaves the door open IMO!
 
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9-iron

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Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Just noticing that God preserved the man himself. He lost his possesions and everything he had accumulated, but his life was spared. Which could lead this thread in another direction.

I've avioded this book of the Bible for reasons stated above. However, I have to ask does Job lose any of his family? Are his children killed?
 
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probinson

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Jim M said:
If, as you say, God is not responsible for Job’s suffering in any way, how do you explain this passage from Job chapter 1:
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

I’m willing to learn.


~Jim
The original text never said "very well". That is a bad translation of what God said. God said Behold, Lo, Look.
 
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