JFK Assassination Poll

[Lion of Narnia]

Oh, here's something for reflection, on those who think (a la Oliver Stone's fantasy movie JFK) that Lyndon Baines Johnson was involved. If LBJ wanted JFK wacked, why was he fighting tooth and nails to be riding in the position that was due to Connally for political protocal? That's right, we might of ended up with the Speaker of the House assuming the Presidency...

 

[TScott]

Physiological reactions to being shot do not necessarily correlate with the direction of the shooting. Now, JFK's neck shot was either exclusivly or primarily a soft tissue hit (some neck bone might have been clipped, but it wasn't a full on bone hit) A 130 grain boat-tail military style bullet, traveling at aprox 3000 feet-per-second is going to zip through soft tissue imparting almost NO inertial energy (and those are small to begin with---if a bullet can "knock some one over" why doesn't the recoil do the same to the shooter, however braced?--Newton's Third Law of Motion in effect here). JFK's reactions were utterly due to the shock of tissue damage-nervous impulse--and those are by nature, unpredicatble. Also, his back-brace prevented JFK from slumping foward. The kill shot--a massive trauma to the CNS (brain)---Most of the momentem energy was expended it the disruption of the bullet and the skull fragmentation and in producing cranial hydrostatic shock---but the trauma would have produced an incredible firing of the CNS nerons, producing the body's spasms in whatever direction--again modified by the presence of the back brace

I agree the direction he reacted to the kill shot isn't conclusive. The rub comes in the number of hits. It was determined that even an expert could only have fired two shots in the time that the target was visible from the 6th floor window. Connally said he heard the first shot and turned in time to see Kennedy grab his throat. This is confirmed by the Zapruder film. He says that is when he was hit by a second shot. It was after he was hit that the third shot hit and blew Kennedy's head to pieces. Three shots had to be fired. The Warren Commision tried to make the first shot hit Kennedy's throat and then hit Connally, the famous "magic bullet". It allegedly hit Kennedy in the throat then entered Connally where it hit and shattered several bones, exiting Connally only to be later discovered in pristine condition.

 

[Lion of Narnia]

I agree the direction he reacted to the kill shot isn't conclusive. The rub comes in the number of hits. It was determined that even an expert could only have fired two shots in the time that the target was visible from the 6th floor window. Connally said he heard the first shot and turned in time to see Kennedy grab his throat. This is confirmed by the Zapruder film. He says that is when he was hit by a second shot. It was after he was hit that the third shot hit and blew Kennedy's head to pieces. Three shots had to be fired. The Warren Commision tried to make the first shot hit Kennedy's throat and then hit Connally, the famous "magic bullet". It allegedly hit Kennedy in the throat then entered Connally where it hit and shattered several bones, exiting Connally only to be later discovered in pristine condition.

LHO was an expert shot. My point #3. Three shots were fired, Warren commission was wrong on that one, my point #4. The "magic bullet" (which wasn't magic at all just ballistics) WAS NOT PRISTINE my point #1. Shot #1 (pre-loaded, it's firing starts the clock) a complete miss, thats the one Connally looks around for, my point #6. Further breakdown, re Gerald Posner Case Closed, re PBS Frontline.

 

[marshlewis]

LHO was an expert shot. My point #3. Three shots were fired, Warren commission was wrong on that one, my point #4. The "magic bullet" (which wasn't magic at all just ballistics) WAS NOT PRISTINE my point #1. Shot #1 (pre-loaded, it's firing starts the clock) a complete miss, thats the one Connally looks around for, my point #6. Further breakdown, re Gerald Posner Case Closed, re PBS Frontline.

If you could find just one physicist who will back this magic bullet theory publicly then it would be the first. I studied newtons laws of motion and they categorically deny that the magic bullet can be explained through ballistics. This is absolutly fact with no room for interpretation.
Dont tell me Im wrong, find me a Physicist who will publicly support the theory.

 

[TScott]

7) Dealy Plaza, like most urban centers, is an echo chamber (an episode of Monk: The Defective Detective showed this quite clearly). So, the farther away from the shot source, and the more off the line of fire, the more likely people would be confused to the number of shots fired. The three ear witnesses below the nest--no confusion. Three shots. Those in the presidential convertible-three shots. Back to the Zapruder film and computer reconstruction. The first shot (pre-loaded) complete miss. That's the one Governor Connally looks around for--and JFK seems to react also. A second and a half later the car was clear of the oak tree and the second shot drills through JFK's neck and nails Connally in the back, exits his chest, and lodges in his right forearm. It takes about a half second for JFK's and the Connally's physiological reactions to being shot to show. The reconstruction shows the pretty strait alignment of neck, back-chest, and forearm from a downward diagonal angle--the sixth story sniper nest is the ONLY option--and that alignment occurs a half-second before the shot-reactions occur. QED. A second later, the kill shot. LHO realizes he's done it (looking through his telescopic scope, the result would have been unmistakable), and bugs out while the presidential convertible peels off.

The problem is that Cannally had never wavered from his insistance that he was not hit by the same bullet that hit Kennedy in the neck. He insisted he was hit afterhe turned back around. Your theory requires his recollection to be wrong as well then?

At this point, Connally claims he was not hit:

While this is seconds after Kennedy was hit.

 

[TScott]

Here is where Kennedy reacts to being hit, it looks as though Connally may also be reacting to a hit, but he claims he was not hit. It is also not logical that he would turn around if he had been hit already.

It is also hard to see the angle of trajectory that Lion is talking about. Kennedy's neck and connally's back are almost parralel to the ground, not in line with a 6th floor window, up and behind.

This shot is 18 frames later, Connally is clearly turning around..reacting to the sound of the shot that hit Kennedy, not a first missed shot that Lion is talking about.

This is around the time Connally claims to have been hit which is just prior to Kennedy's fatal head shot. Connally is in the act of turning back around.

 

[Lion of Narnia]

If you could find just one physicist who will back this magic bullet theory publicly then it would be the first. I studied newtons laws of motion and they categorically deny that the magic bullet can be explained through ballistics. This is absolutly fact with no room for interpretation.
Dont tell me Im wrong, find me a Physicist who will publicly support the theory.

You're wrong It's not magic, categoricaly. It's a pointed, very aerodynamic projectile , spinning at some 20,0000 revolutions per second, with a muzzle velocity right about 3000 fps. It penetrates very, very well, especially in soft tissue. However, that soft tissue strike slows down that bullet enough that it didn't experience the catastrophic destruction it normaly would have upon hitting Connaly's back. Material physics (of copper jacketed lead), momentum energy, pretty standard stuff. To bring up a gruesome example, Third Reich researchers discovered that the standard (8mm Mauser) rifle cartridge "overkilled" at standard ranges, going through 10 starved, lined-up camp prisoners (one supposes maybe it would have only gone through 5-6 of well-fed soldier's bodies). The point is that a full-power rifle cartridge firing a jacketed boat-tail bullet produces the penetration necessary to zip through JFK's neck, punch through Connally's back and chest and then lodge in his forearm.

BTW, if any CA tells you that the second bullet is pristine, they are either ; 1) Incompetant researchers (at best), or 2) Lying.

ADDENDUM: Actually, if you're refering to the straw man magic bullet arguement presented by the CA's (bullet radically and multipe changes of direction), you couldn't produce a physicist to support that. However, if you look at the realistic penetration of a 6.5 mm bullet in human tissue in a line up as shown in the computer 3-d reconstruction from the 2-d Zapruder film, well my point stands

 

[Lion of Narnia]

Here is where Kennedy reacts to being hit, it looks as though Connally may also be reacting to a hit, but he claims he was not hit. It is also not logical that he would turn around if he had been hit already....(snip for brevity)

Scott, THANK YOU for some reasoned analysis rather than the parroting of some CA's bunk (CA=Conspiricy Advocate)

Things happened fast. The Zapruder film gives us a pretty good time clock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it about 18 frames per second? Now, Connally may have indeed been shot and not realized it for a few seconds after. I know of a case of a Tempe Cop who was shot in the heart and still drove his car for an estimated 1 minute after the death wound--apparently just bled out with no pain or perceived trauma.

I'm going to check up on my sources as well over the next few days regarding line-up and such...

 

[TScott]

Things happened fast. The Zapruder film gives us a pretty good time clock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it about 18 frames per second? Now, Connally may have indeed been shot and not realized it for a few seconds after.

Yes, it is possible, however he always insisted on it even though he firmly believed it to be the work of a lone gunman.

 

[TScott]

Some believe the following sequence shows Connally reacting to a sepaerate shot than the neck shot that hits Kennedy, but that the two shots would be too close together to be fired by Oswalds rifle. The first frame is the first clear frame that shows JFKs reaction to his neck wound:

At this point Kennedy has clearly reacted to his wound while Conally does not appear to be wounded, or at least he is not reacting to a wound.

It's here that Connally starts to turn around, according to him, reacting to the sound of the gunshot.

More....

 

[TScott]

Connally, in mid turn seems to be opening his mouth here. It's possible that he is looking at the man whom the car is just passing, but he continues his turn....

 

[TScott]

As Lion pointed out the frames are depicting only a matter of split seconds between frames. As the sequence above depicts Connally turning he could be reacting to the shot that hit Kennedy in the throat or to the earlier shot that missed. The actual shot that hit Kennedy in the throat probably happens while the car is obscured by a sign as before it goes behind the sign Kennedy is turned to his right waving:

As the car emerges from behind the sign...

Now notice in frame 223 you see the right lapel on Connelly's jacket is as it would normally be, then a fraction of a second later it appears to be flipped out in the next 2 frames. It has been theorized by some that this was the shot that hit Connally, and as Lion pointed out he just wasn't yet aware he was hit. This could have been the same shot that hit Kennedy as Kennedy doesn't start to react to his wound until 227:

Also note that this frame is distorted as the sound of the shot may cause Zappruder to move his camera slightly.

Anyway, while it is hard to understand how a single shot could have done all of the damage, it is possible.

 

[TScott]

If anyone wants to study the frames for themselves they are available here:

http://www.jmasland.com/z_color/

 

[Lion of Narnia]

Reviewing Posner's Case Closed (which i had quoted from memory) I need to revise just a few things

1) The muzzle velocity of the 6.5mm cartridge is just under 2000 fps, not 3000 fps as I stated before (ooops). That actually fits quite well why the second bullet did not experience catastrophic destruction, slowed down by JFK's neck , upon hitting Connally's back and neck. In fact, the size of Connaly's entry wound indicate the bullet was already tumbling as it entered the Governor. This would have occured as a result only by the bullet encountering a prior substance (i.e. JFK's neck).

2) The 2nd bullet has a slight bannana bend, but it exhibits typical deformation for the wounds postulated. It is NOT pristine in any way, shape, or form

 

[Lion of Narnia]

Allright, the first shot, LHO's complete miss ,was near frame 160 of Zapruder. The kill shot, LHO's third shot, at frame 313. Where was shot #2?


Unenhanced Zapruder shows JFK emerging from behind the road sign at frame 225, his arms and hands already raised (Not at his throat) --that reaction is a neurological one to the bullet clipping his neck vertabrae, damaging the spinal cord also with the tempory wound cavity of the bullet's passage in flesh (see the pioneering work of Marvin Fackler, US Army surgeon on wound ballistics) That reaction is known as the Thornburn Reflex, an immeadiate and involuntary reflex to an upper spinal cord injury. Jacqueline Kennedy is seen in Zapruder trying to push her husbands arms down and unable too. John Connally (JC) apparently does not react to his wound until at least frame 235, his mouth apparently involontarily opening in the first physiological reaction to a penetrating lung shot--just over .5 seconds later.

Enhanced Zapruder clarifies the timing. JFK's right hand is still visible at frame 224, still waving to the crowd. Frame 225, JFK almost in full view, his right hand decending, the elbow just coming to rest on the door frame. Frame 226, he starts to raise the arm, 227 the elbow jerks up violently in the wound reflex.

However, nervous reactions while fast, are not instantaneous. That Thornburn response would have occured .1 to .2 seconds after the bullet struck JFK--meaning he was hit just before he became again visable to Zapruder, frame #'s 223-224. That's 3.5 seconds after LHO's missed first shot, plenty of time for a practiced bolt action shooter to eject, chamber, and fire again.

 

[Lion of Narnia]

Now where does Connally's reactions fit into this? Frame 224, JFK still behind the sign and enhanced Zapruder shows the right lapel of JC's suit jacket lifted. Less than 2 feet seperated JFK from JC--as mentioned before, the bullet tumbled leaving JFK and entered JC in microseconds. It exited JC's ribcage (slowed down to 900 fps at this point) deflected by the rib further dowward and to the right slightly No magic necessary, just pretty standard behavior of a tumbling bullet encountering bone. Frame 224 JC is facing foward--the line up for one bullet passing between the two men is there. The bullet passes through JC's forearm, exists at 400 fps--just barely penetrates and lodges in the right thigh.

JC's first apparent reaction to wounding occurs about .1 seconds later, frame 226--his face changes expression and he becomes rigid in posture. More definite, frame 227--the white stetson he's been holding jerks upward--a predictable reaction to a gsw to the right forearm. Frame 229, the stetson goes down, same reflex.

Frame 235, first apparent reaction of JC to the penetrative chest-lung wound, only .6 or 2/3 of a second from being wounded. JC's mouth starts to fully open in the involuntary expulsion of air as his right lung collapses.

JC's early testimony that he and JFK were wounded in seperate shots was based on the testimony of Mrs JC. Remember, things happened fast so a little mixing of sequential events is understandable. Mrs JC said that she turned during the first shot, said she saw JFK reacting to his wound, heard JC say "Oh, no,no,no.." and then JC was shot. However, JC was adamant that he did not say that until he felt the clear pain from the chest wound.

Page 333, Posner's Case Closed:

"The author presented some of the new evidence to Governor Connally during a telephone conversation in May 1992. He was open-minded that nnew technologies might provide an understanding of the few seconds in Dealey Plaza not availible in earlier years. "It may well be that Mrs. Connally was mistaken about seeing the President raise his arms after the first shot." he says. "That might have been after the second shot. If that is true, it would make it all very, very consistent. The first bullet could have missed us both. The third bullet definetly only hit him. Based upon the angles, the second bullet, which went through his neck, could have gone through my back. The second bullet could have hit both of us"