Jesus was not an Arminian

elman said:

So when Jesus said follow me it was a waste of words because God had already determined they would follow Him and they had nothing to do with leaving their nets and following Him--is that what you believe? When Peter talked about how they had given up everything and followed him, Peter seemed unaware that he had not done anything. Was that because Peter had been deceived by God into thinking his leaving the nets was by choice when it was not?

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Jesus said "all those who are on the side of the truth will hear His voice."
Apparently He knew He was talking only to some and not all. His sheep hear (present tense) His voice. The goats do not hear His voice. "He who belongs to God hears what God says, the reason you DO NOT hear, is that you do not belong to God (present tense). Who was Jesus speaking to? Was He wasting His breath to His hearers? No. His words hardened those who were not His sheep and opened the ears and eyes of those who ARE His sheep. Jesus made it clear that His words would be heard by the elect. Those who do not hear are not His sheep and do not belong to God. If they are sheep, they will hear. Those who never hear, never belonged to God. "Many are called, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN" Jesus said.

The gospel is preached to every creature as a witness to the truth. Only the elect will hear it and come.

elman said:

Does God really say we have nothing to do with living and not dying? (Ezekiel 18 or Matt 25:31 and following) Have you noticed anywhere in scripture where it says we do have something to do with being a child of God? Look at first John--Does it indicate that anything we might do indicates our being a child of God?

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With respect, we have NOTHING to do with being a child of God. I have 3 sons and none of them had anything to do with helping me give birth to them. I did not wait for them to decide to be born to me. I am their parent and they had no choice in being my child. That is an earthly example of a spiritual truth.

Scripture tells me that salvation is "not of ourselves".

Shulamite said:

With respect, we have NOTHING to do with being a child of God. I have 3 sons and none of them had anything to do with helping me give birth to them. I did not wait for them to decide to be born to me. I am their parent and they had no choice in being my child. That is an earthly example of a spiritual truth.

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Well said.

Shulamite said:

Scripture tells me that salvation is "not of ourselves".

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Amen. Salvation belongs to the Lord (Psalm 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Revelation 7:10).[FONT=&quot]

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Shulamite said:

Jesus said "all those who are on the side of the truth will hear His voice."
Apparently He knew He was talking only to some and not all. His sheep hear (present tense) His voice. The goats do not hear His voice. "He who belongs to God hears what God says, the reason you DO NOT hear, is that you do not belong to God (present tense). Who was Jesus speaking to? Was He wasting His breath to His hearers? No. His words hardened those who were not His sheep and opened the ears and eyes of those who ARE His sheep. Jesus made it clear that His words would be heard by the elect. Those who do not hear are not His sheep and do not belong to God. If they are sheep, they will hear. Those who never hear, never belonged to God. "Many are called, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN" Jesus said.

The gospel is preached to every creature as a witness to the truth. Only the elect will hear it and come.

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So we are not to blame if we sin because God created us unable to chose otherwise.

Shulamite said:

With respect, we have NOTHING to do with being a child of God. I have 3 sons and none of them had anything to do with helping me give birth to them. I did not wait for them to decide to be born to me. I am their parent and they had no choice in being my child. That is an earthly example of a spiritual truth.

Scripture tells me that salvation is "not of ourselves".

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And we all have nothing to do with being born children of God--our Creator. We had nothing to do with that. We do have something to do with becoming a prodigal son. We can chose to destroy our spiritual existence with our own sin. The wages of sin is death. We cannot recreate ourselves spiritually after we have destroyed our own soul, but we have a loving and merciful Creator that will restore us if we turn from wickedness to righteousness. We have no promise of that if we do not turn. We cannot earn or deserve eternal life, but the Bible screams on almost every page God has enabled us to effect our eternal destiny.

elman said:

And we all have nothing to do with being born children of God--our Creator. We had nothing to do with that. We do have something to do with becoming a prodigal son. We can chose to destroy our spiritual existence with our own sin. The wages of sin is death. We cannot recreate ourselves spiritually after we have destroyed our own soul, but we have a loving and merciful Creator that will restore us if we turn from wickedness to righteousness. We have no promise of that if we do not turn. We cannot earn or deserve eternal life, but the Bible screams on almost every page God has enabled us to effect our eternal destiny.

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Well, at least we agree on one point: We have nothing to do with being born of God. This is how I see it. All of us stumble and sin, even after we are saved. The dispute between Calvinists and Arminians is the ORDER in which these events take place. I believe that God chose to give birth to me, I do not effect my own eternal destiny. God says He chose me "in Christ BEFORE the creation of the world. " I was not around then. I attribute my spiritual birth and finishing the race to God's power at work in me only.

Calvinists believe that is the compelling power of God at work in us to accomplish His will. Any good I do was Him in me. Paul said, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

If I turned from wickedness and called out to Jesus, it was because He called me FIRST. The thief on the cross did not have any time to do anything good before he talked with Jesus. Did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with Me in paradise." due to anything GOOD that thief had done? The Father drew this man to Jesus at the last minute, thereby eliminating any chance that this man's good deeds as a sheep could merit him eternal life.

Shulamite said:

Well, at least we agree on one point: We have nothing to do with being born of God. This is how I see it. All of us stumble and sin, even after we are saved. The dispute between Calvinists and Arminians is the ORDER in which these events take place. I believe that God chose to give birth to me, I do not effect my own eternal destiny. God says He chose me "in Christ BEFORE the creation of the world. " I was not around then. I attribute my spiritual birth and finishing the race to God's power at work in me only.

Calvinists believe that is the compelling power of God at work in us to accomplish His will. Any good I do was Him in me. Paul said, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

If I turned from wickedness and called out to Jesus, it was because He called me FIRST. The thief on the cross did not have any time to do anything good before he talked with Jesus. Did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with Me in paradise." due to anything GOOD that thief had done? The Father drew this man to Jesus at the last minute, thereby eliminating any chance that this man's good deeds as a sheep could merit him eternal life.

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On our point of agreement, you misunderstood me. I was saying we are all born as human beings spiritually and physically alive and children of God who created us all. I agree that if we have normal mental capacity and ability to mature we all chose to fall short of being the loving beings God wants us to be and we destroy our spiritual existence, our souls with our own sin. That is why we must be reborn spiritually. The way we turn from being prodigal sons is to come to ourselves and leave the pig pen we have chosen to be in and return to our loving father to be saved from death. Jesus calls all wicked to turn to righteousness. Some do and live and some do not and die. The thief on the cross chastised the other thief for criticizing Jesus. He had done something and the other thief was not promised paradise. Jesus and the bible tell you that you can effect your eternal destiny. Matt 25 tells you that. Ezekiel 18 tells you that. Romans tells you that when it says the wages of sin is death. John tells you that in First John when he says claiming to be a child of God who is love and not loving your neighbor makes you a liar.

elman said:

Jesus calls all wicked to turn to righteousness.

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Chapter and verse please.

Jesus acknowledged that He had the authority to give eternal life to as many as the Father had given Him. The expression "as many as" means no more and no less.

The Boxer said:

Chapter and verse please.

Jesus acknowledged that He had the authority to give eternal life to as many as the Father had given Him. The expression "as many as" means no more and no less.

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Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

Ezekiel 18:1
Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,...

And while we are in Ezekiel 18, let's read another truth...
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."

Can someone tell me which letter of TULIP does this contradict?

JESUS HIMSELF vomits out of HIS mouth any thoughts of FREEWILL...in fact it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to do anything against the WILL OF GOD. For the FATHER~&~THE SON~&~THE SPIRIT are ONE...and also all those who make up the BODY of CHRIST throughout the entire history of this world are also one IN HIM,and WITH HIM.
Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Arcoe said:

Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

Ezekiel 18:1
Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,...

And while we are in Ezekiel 18, let's read another truth...
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."

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You said that JESUS calls all men to turn to righteousness. What has Ezekiel's words to do with it? Ezekiel's words were to people of the covenant. Jesus said that He had the authority to give eternal life to AS MANY AS the Father gave Him. This means no more and no less.

The Boxer said:

You said that JESUS calls all men to turn to righteousness. What has Ezekiel's words to do with it? Ezekiel's words were to people of the covenant. Jesus said that He had the authority to give eternal life to AS MANY AS the Father gave Him. This means no more and no less.

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John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

All scriptures testify of Jesus. I would think that includes Ezekiel 18. Would you agree?

Now, which letter of TULIP does verse 24 contradict? You seem to have forgotten that in my last post.

Yeah GOD also in the same book of Ezekiel promises that HE WILL DO this for HIS people...Some people just focus,and have more Faith BY THE SPIRIT in the HIGHER and BETTER things.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

SeraphimsCherub said:

Yeah GOD also in the same book of Ezekiel promises that HE WILL DO this for HIS people...Some people just focus,and have more Faith BY THE SPIRIT in the HIGHER and BETTER things.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

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It seems to me then, there is cooperation of man with God. What say you?

Arcoe said:

It seems to me then, there is cooperation of man with God. What say you?

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GOD didn't come here to glorify our flesh,and for it to be puffed up in SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. HE came to CRUCIFY IT AS DEAD AS A DOOR NOB IN CHRIST. GOD see us as dead...as far as our fleshly existence is concerned. And any GOOD that we do...it's because GOD'S SPIRIT has done it in us,and given us to WILL,and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there isnone good but one, that is,God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

SeraphimsCherub said:

GOD didn't come here to glorify our flesh,and for it to be puffed up in SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. HE came to CRUCIFY IT AS DEAD AS A DOOR NOB IN CHRIST. GOD see us as dead...as far as our fleshly existence is concerned. And any GOOD that we do...it's because GOD'S SPIRIT has done it in us,and given us to WILL,and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?there isnone good but one,that is,God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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Amen, each time I use this very same example of God's Spirit being the One and only that works and wills within us, it's attacked. It gets me feeling confused as to why?? Why is it such an offense to say Jesus ALONE lives His life through us and it's NOT us? Why is it an offense to say it's only the Spirit's fruit, not our fruit?


For some reason, God's Sovereignty is an offense. Why would someone attack this? Human/flesh-pride.

Shulamite said:

Amen, each time I use this very same example of God's Spirit being the One and only that works and wills within us, it's attacked. It gets me feeling confused as to why?? Why is it such an offense to say Jesus ALONE lives His life through us and it's NOT us? Why is it an offense to say it's only the Spirit's fruit, not our fruit?


For some reason, God's Sovereignty is an offense. Why would someone attack this? Human/flesh-pride.

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Heb 11:39
These were all commended for their faith,

gmm4j said:

Heb 11:39
These were all commended for their faith,

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Jesus' faith, you mean?

Any faith we have was His FIRST. He gave His faith to us and since we are co-heirs with Him, then His faith becomes ours.

We do not have anything apart from Christ, including our own faith. WHY, Oh Why is this such an offense????

gmm4j said:

Heb 11:39
These were all commended for their faith,

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Their FAITH is the FAITH that is of CHRIST,and not themselves. They were commended because CHRIST is WORTHY to be commended.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's FAITH would I rather have...my own,or the very FAITH OF CHRIST?? It's CHRIST WHO SAVES.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I live by the faith of the Son of God, I live by the faith of the Son of God, I live by the faith of the Son of God.

Thank YOU LORD!! I certainly have no problems with YOU there. HALLELUJAH!!!

SeraphimsCherub said:

Their FAITH is the FAITH that is of CHRIST,and not themselves. They were commended because CHRIST is WORTHY to be commended.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's FAITH would I rather have...my own,or the very FAITH OF CHRIST?? It's CHRIST WHO SAVES.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I live by the faith of the Son of God, I live by the faith of the Son of God, I live by the faith of the Son of God.

Thank YOU LORD!! I certainly have no problems with YOU there. HALLELUJAH!!!

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Gal 2:16-21
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" NIV


Gal 2:16-21
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV


Gal 2:16-3:1
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. ASV

Gal 2:16-21
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. 17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NASB

Gal 2:16-21
yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we ourselves were found to be sinners, is Christ then an agent of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
RSV

Gal 2:16-21
yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
NRSV

Gal 2:16-21
Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires. 17 If, then, as we try to be put right with God by our union with Christ, we are found to be sinners, as much as the Gentiles are — does this mean that Christ is serving the cause of sin? By no means! 18 If I start to rebuild the system of Law that I tore down, then I show myself to be someone who breaks the Law. 19 So far as the Law is concerned, however, I am dead — killed by the Law itself — in order that I might live for God. I have been put to death with Christ on his cross, 20 so that it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. This life that I live now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me. 21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!
TEV

Gal 2:16-21
And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ — and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
NLT