Jesus vs. The Old Testament

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Faint

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There are obviously a lot of "old laws" in scripture, like:
Deut. 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

or
22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman...

…yet most of the Christians that I’ve talked to say that Jesus essentially overturned or nullified these kinds of laws (which many nowadays consider immoral). Is there truth in this? Where is it supported in the New Testament?
 

keith99

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A lot on this goes to ones views of scripture. If the Bible is without error and perfect there is a big problem. If instead it records the understanding of a people about their God the problem becomes much smaller. Basically Jesus both gives more and expects more of men.

But you picked a great example! It is neither dietary, whcich there is a one liner for, nor is it ceremonial or sacrificial which could be seen as limited to the Jews or completed with Christs scarifice.
 
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LittleNipper

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There are obviously a lot of "old laws" in scripture, like:

or

…yet most of the Christians that I’ve talked to say that Jesus essentially overturned or nullified these kinds of laws (which many nowadays consider immoral). Is there truth in this? Where is it supported in the New Testament?

What Jesus did was to fulfill the reqirements of the LAW perfectly. By placing my trust in JESUS' death, burial, ressurection, one can be assured eternal salvation; however, if one does not follow the LAW one is still going to reap temporal problems in this life. If someone smokes, they are likely to die of cancer. One doesn't go to hell for smoking, but one's health and life are likely affected by how one lives while here. The Bible says, "One may do all things in CHRIST; however, not all are profitable to do." It is far better to build treasures in heaven then to gather treasure here.
 
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Faint

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What Jesus did was to fulfill the reqirements of the LAW perfectly. By placing my trust in JESUS' death, burial, ressurection, one can be assured eternal salvation; however, if one does not follow the LAW one is still going to reap temporal problems in this life. If someone smokes, they are likely to die of cancer. One doesn't go to hell for smoking, but one's health and life are likely affected by how one lives while here. The Bible says, "One may do all things in CHRIST; however, not all are profitable to do." It is far better to build treasures in heaven then to gather treasure here.
So women should marry their rapists? Which LAW are you talking about...the OT or modern law? In other words, if the OT laws (i.e. God's laws) are no longer to be followed...why?

Smoking is legal by the way.
 
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LittleNipper

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So women should marry their rapists? Which LAW are you talking about...the OT or modern law? In other words, if the OT laws (i.e. God's laws) are no longer to be followed...why?

Smoking is legal by the way.

In the Old Testament a rapest who was caught was sentenced to DEATH. That certainly would release the person in question to marry anyone she chose. Smoking pollutes the temple of the Holy Spirit which in fact is the human body where Christians are concerned. Smoking isn't legal everywhere today by the way...
 
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QuakerOats

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I'm going to go out on a limb here, and perhaps 'spoil the fun,' and say that I think what LittleNipper means is that Jesus fulfilled the law by sacrificing himself, and thus literally 'taking the place' of those condemned to die, or what have you, by law in the Old Testament. If this is wrong LittleNipper, please correct me.
 
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PantsMcFist

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So women should marry their rapists? Which LAW are you talking about...the OT or modern law? In other words, if the OT laws (i.e. God's laws) are no longer to be followed...why?

Smoking is legal by the way.

Rape is also a cultural construction. I doubt ANY woman in the OT thought of rape the way we do now. It was certainly something to be avoided, but it wasn't seen as traumatic or morally wrong the way it is now. A woman had no say in who she married, and therefore had sex with, so every relationship, in modern terms, began with a rape after bride price was agreed on.

We really can't read the bible accurately when we overlay our own morality and ideologies on the cultural context it was recorded in.
 
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sealacamp

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There are obviously a lot of "old laws" in scripture, like:

or

…yet most of the Christians that I’ve talked to say that Jesus essentially overturned or nullified these kinds of laws (which many nowadays consider immoral). Is there truth in this? Where is it supported in the New Testament?


“You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.

“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. What was He talking about? The ten commandments, Gods law. What you quoted was Moses law and was applicable at the time. Now we have Gods law which is fulfilled by faith through grace and as Paul put it "love for this there is no law against".

Sealacamp
 
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tcampen

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Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. What was He talking about? The ten commandments, Gods law. What you quoted was Moses law and was applicable at the time. Now we have Gods law which is fulfilled by faith through grace and as Paul put it "love for this there is no law against".

Sealacamp

Why can't those silly jews see this? :D

Honestly, I don't see the laws in the Hebrew scriptures as something to be "fulfilled" any more than a speeding law can be fulfilled. It can only be observed or not observed. A contract can be fulfilled. An agreement can be fulfilled. A prophecy can be fulfulled. A law cannot. This is a piece of theogical grammar that never made sense to me.
 
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Beanieboy

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My view, although a heretical one, is that the Bible shows the gradual understanding that man had. The God of the OT kills anyone that disobeys the smallest transgression, approves of slaughtering neighboring villages in his name should they be worshipping other Gods. He enjoys songs of bashing the heads of the enemies' children against the rocks.

The Jesus of the NT teaches people to bless those who curse you, to act always in love, to forgive others as God forgives you. I think this is because people were ready for it. Someone asked, "How many times should I forgive my neighbor? Seven?" They were at the right place to understand the mercy of God, the love of God for the Centurian who showed his faith, to the woman who was not a Jew who, even when discouraged, argued that even the crumbs fall to the dogs from the master's table, again showing her faith. He reached out in humility to the sinners, and condemned those that thought themselves holier than others, who claimed authority over the bible, but were blind guides because they focused on law, and not on love.

I think we continue to understand the true nature of God, understanding that God is not an angry ogre ready to flick us into the fire if we disobey the pettiest of sin, but that God loves us constantly, unconditionally, in order to get us to love him and one another, and to know God by loving each other.

I wonder sometimes if it is possible, for us to have a world where we stop dividing Us and Them, and simply become Us, where we actually love our neighbor as ourself, care for the poor because they are part of the human family, care for the underprivileged, the sick, those in prison, to dispose of the "good people" and "bad people" false dichotomy. I imagine what that world would be - a place where you no longer feared someone taking your bike, but stopping their car, and waving you to cross, a place where a woman could walk home safely to her house, a place where people would run to your aid should you need help, a place where people thought of the community and others instead of only themselves. I imagine a place where governments stopped pumping so much money into killing each other, and instead, worked together to help 3rd World Countries where children die of starvation, put the money into education, to health care, to finding ways to clean the environment, rather than succumb to greed at the cost of the planet. I imagine a place where status is no longer a concept, where everyone is considered a valuable life, a gift from God, and something to offer.

And the world would be an amazing place.
 
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Funny Fundie

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Rape is also a cultural construction. I doubt ANY woman in the OT thought of rape the way we do now. It was certainly something to be avoided, but it wasn't seen as traumatic or morally wrong the way it is now. A woman had no say in who she married, and therefore had sex with, so every relationship, in modern terms, began with a rape after bride price was agreed on.

We really can't read the bible accurately when we overlay our own morality and ideologies on the cultural context it was recorded in.

The dangers of the unindoctrinated...
Read your Bible. Moses lays out quite succinctly who raped and who committed infidelity.
 
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