Jesus reveals that the 4th commandment is not moral law

DamianWarS

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I tell you it takes a lot od sacrifice to be a Sabbath keeper. I have lost jobs because of it and the vast majority of the world looks at Sabbath keepers as nuts for making those sacrifices. However my relationship with God requires it, and makes those sacrifices seem like nothing. What is money compared to God and heaven? Nothing. Love makes human beings do all kinds of things the rest of the world sees as crazy.
Worship to God is always good and I certainly wouldn't discourage you from Sabbath worship through rest. May I suggest however we approach our worship a bit differently toward God and as an analogy, I'll use Eastern/western culture so bare with me for a moment.

The West likes things that are factual and prefer factual truth no matter the cost, even if it means dishonor. So honesty is one of the highest values in the West and highly prized. However in the East honor is highly valued sometimes over factual truth and details can be somewhat elastic so that honor is upheld. In the 10 commandments there are laws that are honor-driven (5th commandment) and laws that are honesty-driven (9th commandment) but what happens when these conflict? This reveals what you truly rank as more important. Eastern culture would be quicker to favour honor at the expense of honesty when it comes to upholding the 5th commandment whereas Western culture would favor honesty at the expense of honor when it comes to upholding the 9th commandment so who is more right? Often the West will accuse the East of being deceptive and dishonest and the East with accuse the West of being disrespectful and too krass. Both are upholding good values but in conflict make a choice about which to sacrifice and which to keep.

A perfect example of this is the account of young Washington cutting down a cherry tree and is often used as an antidote of how the West values honesty at the highest level. Young Washington cuts down a tree and readily admits to it when asked, he then is praised for his honesty. Had this story been told in the East he would be reprimanded for not his honesty but his dishonor through his embarrassing behavior. The funny part is the actual story did not happen and is a pure myth. It was first published driven to show how honest young Washington was, so the story is actually honor-driven not honesty driven as the story blurs factual detail and is goal driven to show Washington was honest and because the goal was worthy it's ok to blur the details to support that goal. This actually is a very Eastern way of approaching accounts like this and is how a lot of accounts in the bible are framed because biblical accounts are culturally closer to ancient Eastern systems that are honor driven. This doesn't question their authority or truth it just reveals it's framework.

what does this have to do with Sabbath keeping? directly nothing, and sorry for the long story, but I'm using the story to show how different people can approach values and it's not so much that the values are wrong than it is about how we prioritize them. I view the values of the NT as actively connecting with people and showing them Christ. Christ says "Go into all the world and preach the gospel...." so we are charged with taking the gospel to others. In contrast with the OT it is more of a value of showing the glory of God through a static nation. Rather than bringing it to the world, the world must come to it in order to see the glory of God. God is in the ark, in a special room separated by a giant veil and in a temple so if we want to experience God the messaging is based on a static location analogous to a nation. Although there are plenty of examples to the contrary this is a culture that is created through these values and is more deeply rooted in how we (or ancient mindsets) process things. heart knowledge vs head knowledge. The NT however seems to be driven at releasing all these boundaries showing that God is not bound by man-made constructs and is accessible in any place, at any time. We can go on for hours about this but I think broadly you get the idea.

These are fundamentally different ways of approaching missiology. I would suggest you are Sabbath driven in your actions. Keeping Sabbath rest ranks as a high value and it is understood that it comes with a great cost so the cost itself acts as a testament to the value you uphold of the Sabbath. certainly, you may break that rest in certain circumstances but broadly speaking you are motivated with keeping the sabbath first at the expense of other choices. Myself, I will readily admit to being driven first by my mission which I view as NT values, and the choices I make are based on how I can show others Christ even at the expense of other choices. So my charge to my mission ranks higher than my charge for Sabbath rest and it would seem with you, your charge for Sabbath rest ranks higher than your charge to your mission. For example, certainly, you can evangelize on the Sabbath, but not at the cost of rest. And certainly, I may rest on the Sabbath, but not at the cost of my mission.

Do you see how our motivation changes the outcome? To you it seems ranking your mission higher than the 4th commandment may be at the cost of obedience to God and is not worth it, for me ranking the 4th commandment over my mission may be at the cost of obedience to God, and is not worth it. We are both driven by obedience towards God but our methodology is different and can result in different outcomes. Like an East vs West cultural difference, we sometimes can accuse each other of missing the point but in fact are driven at keeping the point. I am mission-driven, whereas you are Sabbath driven. I'm not going to tell you how to obey or worship God, that is something only God can tell you and I will leave the voice of the Spirit to direct you in those ways as I too listen for that voice myself but I think it is important to establish why we approach these things differently.
 
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Leaf473

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Sorry I guess I looked at post number 328.

It's like I said before, God took care of all eventualities. If a man was so poor all he had to do was bring a cheaper sin offering so there was no need to bring a blemished lamb. If someone decided to do that anyway I don't see that they would have brought an offering for sin at all as they were deeply rebellious against God to begin with. This reminds me of what Paul says about sinning.


What excuse will you make now for not liking my answer,because you're trying to force a point where none exists.
Your answer is not satisfactory because it does not indicate a yes or no to my question.

I'm not asking if you can see why someone would do it.

The question is:
Are you saying that it is a sin not to follow this instruction:
"he shall offer a male without defect", but that instruction does not describe a sin?

And that question is in reference to Leviticus 1:3
 
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Gary K

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Your answer is not satisfactory because it does not indicate a yes or no to my question.

I'm not asking if you can see why someone would do it.

The question is:
Are you saying that it is a sin not to follow this instruction:
"he shall offer a male without defect", but that instruction does not describe a sin?

And that question is in reference to Leviticus 1:3
I'm sorry you don't like my answer but it's the only one you're going to get as there is no point in answering. You're just looking to make a theological argument and I find they are extremely weak when compared to the love of God and His relationship with all of humanity.
 
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Leaf473

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I'm sorry you don't like my answer...
It's not that I don't like it, it's just that it doesn't provide a clear yes or no to the question. It's not satisfactory in that sense :heart:

...but it's the only one you're going to get as there is no point in answering.
The point in answering would be if you want to continue the discussion on the subject :)

You're just looking to make a theological argument...
I'd much prefer to think of it as a discussion about the law, but if you want to call it a theological argument, that's fine.


...and I find they are extremely weak when compared to the love of God and His relationship with all of humanity.
A great place to talk about God's love would be over here (I'm going to try to make a link :D )
Verses of Encouragement

(Let me know if it worked!)

 
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