Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
Later in the chapter, it says this:
"But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Yet no scripture in OT or NT says that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved.

Acts 15:1 show the error stated clearly

Acts 15:1 "Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

This was a novel innovation being made by Christian Jews regarding Christian gentiles. We don't see the non-Christian Jews coming up with such a rule in Acts 13 or Acts 17 or Acts 18.

Watchman1 said:
So, teaching that modern Christians should keep the Law is repeating what the sect of the Pharisees were saying

Not true since the "New Covenant" writes the Law of God on the heart Heb 8:6-12 where that Law is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34.

So then it is still a "sin" even in the NT for gentiles to take God's name in vain.

Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
and informs us that in those commandments is the unit of TEN - having "Honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
And the Christians had their own worship meetings on the first day of the week in homes, not in the Jewish synagogues.

Not one text in all of scripture says that anyone met "every week day 1" - much less assign a title of honor to "week day 1".

That's a big reason why this subject gets discussed so much on this forum

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
In the preaching and obedience to the Gospel, there is no commandment to follow the Law of Moses.

In the gospels Christ specifically condemns man made traditions that oppose the Law of God - given in the form "Moses said".

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

On one side of that debate we see

1. Commandments of God
2. Word of God
3. Moses said.

on the other side we see

1. "your tradition"
2. "Commandments of men"
3. "you say"

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

BobRyan said:
Yet no scripture in OT or NT says that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved.

Acts 15:1 show the error stated clearly

Acts 15:1 "Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

This was a novel innovation being made by Christian Jews regarding Christian gentiles. We don't see the non-Christian Jews coming up with such a rule in Acts 13 or Acts 17 or Acts 18.

Not true since the "New Covenant" writes the Law of God on the heart Heb 8:6-12 where that Law is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34.

So then it is still a "sin" even in the NT for gentiles to take God's name in vain.

Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
and informs us that in those commandments is the unit of TEN - having "Honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Since Paul was ready to leave the next day, he talked to them and kept on speaking until midnight" (Acts 20:7).

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Since Paul was ready to leave the next day, he talked to them and kept on speaking until midnight" (Acts 20:7).

It does not say what you claimed earlier which is that they met EVERY first day... to get that point you would need a text that says it -- like this "on EVERY first day we come together to break bread"

What you have in Acts 20 is a striking case where they have "first day" but no title for the day like "Lord's day". And instead of "every first day" it is a reference to having a meeting at night before leaving for all day travel the next day.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

BobRyan said:
In the gospels Christ specifically condemns man made traditions that oppose the Law of God - given in the form "Moses said".

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

On one side of that debate we see

Commandments of God, Word of God, Moses said.

on the other side we see

"your tradition", "Commandments of men", "you say"

The replacement of the requirement to follow the Mosaic Law by faith in Christ alone, has already been addressed in this thread. If you choose to base your Christianity on your own performance in following the Law, then go ahead, and we will all see what happens at the judgment.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

BobRyan said:
It does not say what you claimed earlier which is that they met EVERY first day... to get that point you would need a text that says it -- like this "on EVERY first day we come together to break bread"

The Saturday or Sunday Christian worship has already been addressed in this thread.

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
The Saturday or Sunday Christian worship has already been addressed in this thread.

Did you mean to include a link to a thread or a post #???

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
The replacement of the requirement to follow the Mosaic Law by faith in Christ alone, has already been addressed in this thread. .

Did you mean to include a link to a thread or a post #???

BobRyan · Aug 19, 2022

In the gospels Christ specifically condemns man made traditions that oppose the Law of God - given in the form "Moses said".

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Watchman1 said:
If you choose to base your Christianity on your own performance in following the Law, then go ahead, and we will all see what happens at the judgment.

Christ's teaching in Mark 7 can't be dismissed that easy. The details in His teaching need to actually be addressed to argue that they are dismissed.

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

Shalom Watchman

Watchman1 said:
Hebrews 4 teaches that the Sabbath rest does not involve having a requirement that worship should be on a Saturday. Christians do not observe the Jewish Sabbath.

This is where I think it all becomes unraveled.

Lev 19 - ‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Lev 23 - "‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3‘ Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

And there's many more references to whose Shabbat it is.

Watchman1 said:
Being genuinely converted to Christ means entering into a superior rest than the Saturday Sabbath observance.

Superior? The Sabbath is a day that the Creator (meaning Jesus/Yeshua) has set apart, made Holy because it echos and shows the world He is the Creator and no one else. It is a way to show others who is King by honoring the seventh day which followed all his created works.

Watchman1 said:
It is a rest in Christ where our salvation does not depend on works, but in what Jesus keeping the Law for us and being our Substitute when he suffered and died on the Cross.

He did not keep the law for you, me or anyone else. What he did do was pay the penalty for those of us who broke the law. It is not physically possible for him to have kept all the laws so that point is moot.

Watchman1 said:
It is the reflection that as God rested from His works (creation of the universe), as those who are converted to Christ also enter into a rest in Him from works.

Do you think that loving God is a 'work'? How about not stealing from someone? Not helping out one in need? Saving food in your field for those less fortunate? and I could go on but I hope you get the gist.

Watchman1 said:
This ties into the Scripture, "The work of God is that we believe in Christ". Believing in Christ transforms us so that we become totally law abiding Christians who love God with all our heart, mind and strength, and we love our neighbour as we love ourselves. That replaces compliance with the Commandments set in stone.

So it is ok now to not Love God? your parents, your neighbors?
BTW the 'Love your neighbor as yourself' isn't written on the tablets, it is found in Leviticus 19.

Watchman1 said:
Therefore the commandment to observe the Saturday Sabbath is fulfilled through faith in Christ as is shown in Hebrews 4:9-10:
"So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."

So when you go to a baseball game on Saturday, mow your lawn, have a party, work your job, how do any of these things non-verbally show you love God and obey his commandments?

Watchman1 said:
Therefore, entering into God's rest through faith in Christ has made the Saturday Sabbath observance obsolete.

So we no longer honor the Creator of all things by keeping the day he set apart, Holy unto the Lord?

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
Later in the chapter, it says this:
"But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
So, teaching that modern Christians should keep the Law is repeating what the sect of the Pharisees were saying in the Jerusalem Council. Paul totally opposed this and referred to people who teach this as "false apostles".
Here is the letter sent to the Gentile churches:
"They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment"
The Apostles in the Jerusalem church gave no such commandment that the Gentile Christians should keep the Law. The ones who went to the Gentile churches preaching that converts needed to keep the Law were "unsettling their souls". In other words they were giving false teaching that was distorting the Gospel of Christ and putting blockages in the way of the truth.

In the preaching and obedience to the Gospel, there is no commandment to follow the Law of Moses.

The point of the gathering was about the Circumcision, that was what was done in those days when one became a proselyte.

To say they didn't have to keep Gods Laws (whom HE gave to Moses, and 'HE' meaning Jesus as well ) is to be lawless.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

Lulav said:
Shalom Watchman

This is where I think it all becomes unraveled.

Lev 19 - ‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Lev 23 - "‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3‘ Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

And there's many more references to whose Shabbat it is.

Superior? The Sabbath is a day that the Creator (meaning Jesus/Yeshua) has set apart, made Holy because it echos and shows the world He is the Creator and no one else. It is a way to show others who is King by honoring the seventh day which followed all his created works.

He did not keep the law for you, me or anyone else. What he did do was pay the penalty for those of us who broke the law. It is not physically possible for him to have kept all the laws so that point is moot.

Do you think that loving God is a 'work'? How about not stealing from someone? Not helping out one in need? Saving food in your field for those less fortunate? and I could go on but I hope you get the gist.

So it is ok now to not Love God? your parents, your neighbors?
BTW the 'Love your neighbor as yourself' isn't written on the tablets, it is found in Leviticus 19.

So when you go to a baseball game on Saturday, mow your lawn, have a party, work your job, how do any of these things non-verbally show you love God and obey his commandments?

So we no longer honor the Creator of all things by keeping the day he set apart, Holy unto the Lord?

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Galatians 4:10-11).

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Colossians 2:16).

Those people who are insisting that Christian converts observe Sabbath days are showing that Paul laboured in vain preaching the Gospel to them, because he says that such people remain unconverted.

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
"On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Since Paul was ready to leave the next day, he talked to them and kept on speaking until midnight" (Acts 20:7).

It was after the Shabbat that they met for food and fellowship, it is still practiced today. At sundown on 'Saturday' it becomes the first day of the week, which back then would have been between 5- 7 pm so Paul went on speaking for quite awhile but not as long as people assume. There is nothing that says this was a 'Church service', far from it. They had all just come from Synagogue and were having a fellowship following since they were already gathered together. The next day they would go back to work (the first of the week ) at daylight.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

Lulav said:
The point of the gathering was about the Circumcision, that was what was done in those days when one became a proselyte.

To say they didn't have to keep Gods Laws (whom HE gave to Moses, and 'HE' meaning Jesus as well ) is to be lawless.

You are ignoring that James wrote a letter to the Gentile churches saying that concerning keeping the Mosaic Law, "We gave no such commandment." This means that the Apostles, as true representatives of Christ, speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that no commandment to keep the Law of Moses is given. This means to insist that people follow the Mosaic Law is going against the express words of the Holy Spirit and therefore against Christ.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 19, 2022

Lulav said:
It was after the Shabbat that they met for food and fellowship, it is still practiced today. At sundown on 'Saturday' it becomes the first day of the week, which back then would have been between 5- 7 pm so Paul went on speaking for quite awhile but not as long as people assume. There is nothing that says this was a 'Church service', far from it. They had all just come from Synagogue and were having a fellowship following since they were already gathered together. The next day they would go back to work (the first of the week ) at daylight.

This is reading into the reference things that are not there. Nice try, but no cigar.

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
This is reading into the reference things that are not there. Nice try, but no cigar.

That's OK , I don't smoke.
No, it is understanding Jewish traditions and what they were doing from that viewpoint.

John Mullally · Aug 19, 2022

Lulav said:
Hi John

I'll Have to disagree with that.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Where would they meet? At the synagogue, When? on every sabbath day. The Torah, or the law of Moses was parceled out in a cycle as everyone did not have their own copy of the bible back then. So where every one went to learn it all or have a so called 'refresher course' in it yearly was the synagogue. Those few things they started out with were to be able to come among the people in the synagogues and not be doing pagan things, but that isn't all.

An example of this would be you've shared the good news with someone and they believe. Now what is the next thing you do? Bring them to church. But church has some rules too.

In order to be part and take part you can't have them coming in smoking a cigarette or a bong even. Pulling out a bottle in a paper bag and swigging it down. Wearing promiscuous clothing. Making out with anyone (prostitute or not). Acting in a lewd way. Things like that.

In Acts 15:18-21, James speaks about the practice of reading Moses on the Sabbath at his and other Jewish synagogues - which enforces the case that keeping the Sabbath was considered - and yet it was left out!

In Congress, deliberations leading up to passed legislation are historic, but not binding - no one reads the deliberations to interpret the legislation as only the legislation is material. In the same way, the deliberations (Acts 15:1-22) leading to the Jerusalem Decree are merely historic. It is only the Jerusalem Decree (Acts 15:23-29) that is material and that decree lists which Mosaic Laws the Gentile believers were required to keep. End of story.

Lulav said:
This starts to cover what is called the negative commandments. It does not include the positive ones. Are those not to be followed by the Gentiles?

The two greatest that Yeshua gave when asked were to 'Love the LORD your GOD and 'to love your neighbor as yourself'.

Only one of those is found in the 'ten commandments', the first but where is the second? It is taught in the torah and would have been learned in synagogue on Shabbat.

The commandments Moses gave are the same commandments Yeshua kept as well as his followers.
'IN the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD'. There was nothing created that he wasn't there for and that includes the Commandments.

That was covered above in Acts 15:20 and 21

What is often misunderstood was that the Pharisees (who believed of whom Paul was one of them) thought it was a salvation issue, which it was not. It states in the begining of that chapter what it was all about.

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

I trust the apostles heard from Holy Spirit when writing the Jerusalem Decree. Although the Jerusalem Decree is kept extremely simple, I agree with your point that Pharisees are going to misunderstand.

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

Watchman1 said:
You are ignoring that James wrote a letter to the Gentile churches saying that concerning keeping the Mosaic Law, "We gave no such commandment." This means that the Apostles, as true representatives of Christ, speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that no commandment to keep the Law of Moses is given. This means to insist that people follow the Mosaic Law is going against the express words of the Holy Spirit and therefore against Christ.

Not really, I am however not leaving off the important part.

19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Lulav · Aug 19, 2022

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Rev 22 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. John

Rev 14 : Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

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