Jesus or Country?

[SolomonVII]

How long are we gonna have to wait for God to smite the murderous regime of God-King Jong-Un Kim?

Really? You might be hard pressed to make that point to those being systematically starved to death by the Kim regime, and/or whose families have been wiped out for possibly harboring the "wrong" opinions.

I do see your point, but there is also wisdom in understanding that truth alone is strong enough to endure the rigors of reality.

Kim runs a godless regime of terror based on lies and violence. While we may all in exasperation cry enough even before that regime came into power, this is not the kind of regime that has enough truth in it to endure forever.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

He doesn't have bread because mankind doesn't have agape by birth....

Ultimately, yes. But we can't wait around till Christ comes to get people food, clothing, and shelter.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

Ideally we would serve Christ above, and even instead of, Uncle Sam.

Practically, it is murky. For example, with how much certainty can we know in advance which group of Muslims in a conflict will be most amenable to Christians? The safe thing, of course, is to not volunteer for military service. That is an option in nations such as the current U.S., but not in nations where service is mandatory. And by totally eschewing military service on those moral grounds, you are also ruling out the cases where you would be *helping* Xians.

And even leaving aside direct military service, how are you going to avoid supporting the military, even in its unfavorable actions, via taxes?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

It is in the interest of BOTH Xians and the nation to fight in this case, because the issue is not only the rights of Catholics, but respect for the Constitution, the primary governing document of the U.S.

 

[Gunny]

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him whom who hath chosen him to be a soldier".

II Timothy 2:3-4

KJV

 

[keembo]

Interesting topic..
It is clear in gospel of Mathew in red print...directly from the mouth of the son of God that we are not to take oaths at all. From OT and Deuteronomy, oaths were a requirement, but it is interesting that Jesus said, "you have heard from old."..and goes on to make a brand new 180 degree turn and command it. It is also found in James. He also did the same when he said "you have heard from old Love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy, but (new command pops up) I tell you to love thine enemy, bless, them, pray for those who persecute you. This is red print. If we want to shelve it below Paul or Peter's statements regarding obeying governments, we certainly have choice to do so, but I will carry more weight to the Christ than Paul or Peter. Jesus did not ask any of his disciples or you and I our opinions in the Sermon on the Mount, but he rather gave instructions, and said "If you love me keep my commandments," and ended the chapter with "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." He seems to be calling us to obedience to new teachings. I laud the early Anabaptists persecuted by the early reformers. I think they got it! That was also how the early church in the first couple of centuries lived and acted. It wasn't until Constantine brought the state of the church to a church/state relationship that everything went a little off the rails. God's peace to all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

people are lied to from birth on, in almost all families on earth, and in the usa.

it is truly a miracle if any seek Yhvh for help, and repent of their sinful life to serve Him.

His Word is simple and true and unchanging, so the little ones who turn to Him and trust Him and obey Him and serve Him with ALL their heart and soul and mind and strength, even with everything that is within them,
are not finding it hard to understand it. (the scholars oftern refute the simple truth, preferring instead the ways of church or man.).

see how many willingly and ignorantly give their live up for the military,
yet never think even once of giving up their life nor living their life for Yahushua Hamashiach (Christ Jesus, Messiah,Savior).

oh, some may honor Yhvh in service in the military, like the Conscientious Objector did, the movie shows clearly, who won the hightest honor given from the commander in chief (president) for courage and bravery under machine gun fire saving his fellows who were pinned down and injured by shrapnel or gunfire.
he did not ever lift a weapon, and was humiliated and harassed by others in boot camp and beginning of service,
but when he saved many of his troop under heavy fire,
and never, never, never lifted a weapon , for any reason, and never hurt a fellow human being,
he was recognized for his courage and bravery and respected and rewarded.

people who want to kill other people by the sword will die by the sword, that is God's Promise. and they suffer a lot in many other ways also, for not putting their faith and trust in God.

Yhvh is Perfect. His Word and His Judgments are entirely True.
His care of His People is Perfect also. no fear of death, and the second death has no effect on us.

the ungodly rebel, and gather together to rail against the Lord's Anointed;
just as it is written,
and they resist not.

 

[keembo]

Of course this is only my own opinion, and each of us are our own theologian, but Paul, in the book of Romans, is not God, but Jesus in the Beatitudes in Mathew is God, so I would lean toward listening to the Christ. Nowhere did Christ ever say to love one's country. In fact his "Give unto Caesar.." explanation was responding to an attempt to trap him, and thus he was talking about taxation by Romans. Pay taxes. He clearly pointed out the difference in OT thinking, even commanding by the Father, and NT thinking. When people say God never changes, I believe that really refers to meaning that God never changes being God. However, Jesus was clear explaining that oaths were required in OT and the law, but are now history and to be avoided. This was the same as his comments about how "you have heard from old...BUT" Under the OT old law you were required to love your neighbor and hate you enemy, but that all changed with Jesus. Of course, if one doesn't accept Christ as God, this is all moot. Personally, I believe patriotism is idol worship, and our only mission is to love one another, pray for those who would harm us and bless them. I come to that conclusion, because that is what Christ commanded....not having solicited human opinion. Thank you Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

Politics and religion are both tribal. People pick a side and stick with it even if they have misgivings about some specifics. Being a citizen in a nation has even stronger tribal links than politics. It is not hard to understand why people choose country above Jesus. For a Christian it ought to be Jesus before country and before politics and before religion. But the truth is that many Christians still choose country before Jesus.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Countries come and go, empires rise and fall, but Christ was, is, and always will be. People should put that into perspective when it comes to loyalties.

 

[keembo]

Mr. Coffee,

I agree with much of what you had to say. Since Christ told Pilate that his (Christ's) kingdom was not of this world, that is where I am attempting to be a citizen. I love being in the non democratic omnipotent Kingdom of Jesus. He bought me with his blood, and therefore, I am perhaps a slave in that Kingdom with rights of the Kingdom. My place here on earth as a citizen of this country has some rights, but they pale to insignificance compared to Christ's kingdom, and so I strive to keep them in perspective. That is perhaps why I have some difficulty when I hear from pastors claiming God loves America in the sense that he loves it more than other nations or peoples. This claiming of special favor for America smacks a bit of self indulgence with no Biblical basis. Jesus came to save both Jew and Gentile. That pretty much covers everything. Jesus' Kingdom will have no end...the others will cease to exist. That is why I want to claim citizenship, not through parental birth, but through God's mercy to me through the sacrifice of his son, Jesus. I am trying to live here....for there.

 

[GoingByzantine]

This thread throws me back to June.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've long found it important to read Romans 12 and 13 together. Romans 12 outlines Christian conduct, not only how we are to act with one another, but our conduct in the broader world. Of note is what the Apostle says, "As far as it is up to you, live peaceably with all." This is the sense I see Romans 13 coming into play. Romans 13 is not about blind allegiance to the State, but rather about our living peaceably with the ruling authorities. The Christian is not a rabble-rouser, a troublemaker. Though we confess one Lord, one King, and one kingdom ours is not a violent opposition to the State, but one of peace-making. To recognize that the ruling authorities exist to maintain peace and safety, and that such civilized life is, in comparison to the alternative, a peaceable one. We do not offer incense to Caesar, but we will pray for Caesar and provide for the common welfare of Caesar's kingdom by paying our taxes and abiding by Caesar's laws. Living peaceably with all.

But, again, Romans 13 is not about sitting down and shutting up and accepting the the unbridled lordship of Caesar because, after all, Caesar is not lord, Jesus Christ is Lord. Which is why, for example we'll find in the writings of Origen in Contra Celsus that the Christian offers a far better service to Caesar not by fighting in Caesar's wars, but by praying for him.

It does not mean, as many tried to argue during the days of the Nazi regime (I apologize for engaging in Godwin's Law here), that the Christian and the Church had to sit, shut up, and smile as the Cross was replaced with the swastika and then turn around and say, "Heil Hitler!" Instead the Church had the moral duty to reject this, and the Barmen Declaration is a fantastic piece of confessional literature that expounds upon this quite fantastically. That the Church can have no "Führer" except for Jesus

-CryptoLutheran