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Jesus = Michael?

Hentenza

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it does, because no inspired person writes a book full of nonsense and one verse that's accurate and from God.

so, why is the rest of it missing?
Jude became part of the canon in the 4th century. The canon is closed. If you want to question its inspiration then that’s on you. The book of Jude is not missing anything. Jude, the half brother of Jesus, wrote it with the urgency to expose the false teachers that were infiltrating the church then.
 

johansen

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Jude became part of the canon in the 4th century. The canon is closed. If you want to question its inspiration then that’s on you. The book of Jude is not missing anything. Jude, the half brother of Jesus, wrote it with the urgency to expose the false teachers that were infiltrating the church then.
i'm not talking about jude's inspiration.

Jude would have had the full text of this

and likely considered it to be legitamate.

Jude could easily have been wrong on that matter, and likewise with the quote from Enoch.

men make mistakes, even in 400ad.
 
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Hentenza

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i'm not talking about jude's inspiration.

Jude would have had the full text of this

and likely considered it to be legitamate.

Jude could easily have been wrong on that matter, and likewise with the quote from Enoch.

men make mistakes, even in 400ad.
The Assumption of Moses was not chosen for the canon and is not inspired text. The “lost" books, like Enoch and this one, weren't included due to questions about authenticity, authorship, or contradiction with core doctrines. The book of Jude is not missing anything. God is perfectly capable of guiding man in preserving His word.
 
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johansen

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. The book of Jude is not missing anything
i'm not claiming jude is missing anything.

lets think rationally here:
What are the chances, in a book as long as 1 enoch:

only one sentence is inspired text. and jude read it, and believed it?



rather, read the wiki page:

An alternative explanation is that Jude is compounding material from three sources:



This explanation has three arguments in favour: (1) Jude quotes from both 1 Enoch 1:9 and Zechariah 3. (2) Joshua in Zechariah 3 is dead - his grandson is serving as the high priest. The change from the "body of Jesus" to the "body of Moses" would be required to avoid confusion and to reflect the historical context of Zechariah 3 in Nehemiah concerning intermarriage and corruption in the "body" of the priesthood. (3) The example of Zechariah 3 provides an argument against the "slandering of heavenly beings", since the Angel of the Lord does not do in Zech. 3 what Michael is reported to do in 1En1.[5][6]
 
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Hentenza

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i'm not claiming jude is missing anything.
I posted more than just the bit you quoted which explained my thoughts.
lets think rationally here:
What are the chances, in a book as long as 1 enoch:

only one sentence is inspired text. and jude read it, and believed it?
Now we are gambling? Chances? The only reason why only one sentence is inspired reading is because Jude included it in his epistle. I don’t ever go with “chance”.
rather, read the wiki page:

An alternative explanation is that Jude is compounding material from three sources:



This explanation has three arguments in favour: (1) Jude quotes from both 1 Enoch 1:9 and Zechariah 3. (2) Joshua in Zechariah 3 is dead - his grandson is serving as the high priest. The change from the "body of Jesus" to the "body of Moses" would be required to avoid confusion and to reflect the historical context of Zechariah 3 in Nehemiah concerning intermarriage and corruption in the "body" of the priesthood. (3) The example of Zechariah 3 provides an argument against the "slandering of heavenly beings", since the Angel of the Lord does not do in Zech. 3 what Michael is reported to do in 1En1.[5][6]
Which is the opinion of the writer of the wiki. The Bible actually mentions over 21 books that are more likely lost but no one is making the argument that they should be part of the canon also. For example, the book of Jasher in Jashua 10 and 2 Samuels 1 and the book of the acts of Solomon in 1 Kings 11. The argument in the wiki is actually quite weak as it relies on just similarities.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Its was explained in the part of my post you didn't quote. Please feel free to respond to those Scriptures.

There's nothing to respond to with those Scriptures. They don't say what you want them to say. End of debate.
 
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ViaCrucis

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it does, because no inspired person writes a book full of nonsense and one verse that's accurate and from God.

St. Paul quotes Greek poets and philosophers. When the Apostle quotes the poet who says, "In Him we move and breathe and have our being" the "him" in the original quote is about Zeus. Paul, instead, quotes it and uses it to speak about the true God, not the false imaginary gods of the Greeks.

Because St. Paul quotes a pagan doesn't mean the entire Pauline corpus is uninspired--it is still inspired Scripture.
Just because St. Luke records Paul quoting a pagan doesn't render the whole Acts of the Apostles uninspired--it is still inspired Scripture.

St. Jude quotes from 2nd Temple period literature--that of Enoch--but that does not mean the various Enoch texts are inspired; nor does it mean St. Jude's epistle is uninspired.

St. Jude's Epistle is a recognized inspired text: It is Holy Scripture.

so, why is the rest of it missing?

Rest of what is missing? The Epistle of St. Jude? There's no "rest of it" to be missing. We have Jude's entire epistle. It just happens to be a very short epistle.
 
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The Liturgist

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I thought that believe came from Jehovah Witnesses, who aren’t Trinitarian nor believe Jesus is divine.

Ellen G White was a very prolific writer. I’m not too familiar with her teachings or the teachings of the SDA Church.

The belief was common to Arian Restorationist groups in the 19th century, and it is contrary to Scripture, indeed even the name of St. Michael indicares his status as not Christ, for Christ is referred to as “Emanuel” - God With Us, and “Jesus” an Hellenization of the Hebrew Joshua and the Aramaic Yeshua meaning “YHWH Saves” - proof of his deity. Christ is not an angel, since all angels are creatures, and are pneumatic.

The epistle of St. Jude, which is canonical inspired scripture, further confirms our Lord’s status, and unlike the Pauline epistles, which some try to negate using 2 Peter 2:16 to shoot down any interpretation which differs from theirs, lacks any means for eisegetes to try to refute it.
 
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RileyG

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The belief was common to Arian Restorationist groups in the 19th century, and it is contrary to Scripture, indeed even the name of St. Michael indicares his status as not Christ, for Christ is referred to as “Emanuel” - God With Us, and “Jesus” an Hellenization of the Hebrew Joshua and the Aramaic Yeshua meaning “YHWH Saves” - proof of his deity. Christ is not an angel, since all angels are creatures, and are pneumatic.

The epistle of St. Jude, which is canonical inspired scripture, further confirms our Lord’s status, and unlike the Pauline epistles, which some try to negate using 2 Peter 2:16 to shoot down any interpretation which differs from theirs, lacks any means for eisegetes to try to refute it.
Amen! Well said! :)
 
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The Righterzpen

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Well, I've looked this up several times and my closest conclusion is that Michael and Gabriel are most likely, real created angelic entities with theophonic names. Now why they have theophonic names? I don't know? Seems to have something to do with "rank of archangel". Archangels are the "generals" of the "armies".

The name Michael - loosely translated means "who most assuredly is God".
The name Gabriel - loosely translated means "God-man".

Now these are the only two "archangels" or "chief messengers" that i'm aware of who are named in Scripture. And the "armies" that they are the generals of; may be "angelic host" (Michael) and "army of believers" (Gabriel). As I've noticed that in any communication with human beings; when the angel is named. The name is always Gabriel. I'm not aware of any instances where Michael spoke directly to humans. The closest is in the Book of Daniel where it says Michael came to help Daniel. Although there appears to be nothing recorded as far as Michael actually saying anything to Daniel.

But I don't know any of this "for sure" because the information in Scripture is rather ambiguous.

Besides Lucifer though; there's only one other named angel is Scripture and that is Apollon or Abaddon Which are Greek and Hebrew descriptors of the same entity. This is stated as "the angel of the bottomless pit" and the name means "Destruction". And I do not believe this angel is just another name for Satan. I think this is the difference between "destroyer" and "Destroyer".

The closest "kin" to "Destroyer" is in Exodus; "the angel of the Lord" as "the Destroyer" is the one destroying the 1st born in Egypt. But that word translated "Destroyer" is not the same Hebrew word as Apollon / Abaddon. So is there some form of connection there? (I don't really know.)

So that's my conclusion. Michael and Gabriel are real entities with some form of metaphoric / theophonic names. Similar in the ways that Moses or Solomon are "types" of Christ.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Jesus = Michael?​

Here is a quote from White's "The Desire of Ages" (1898):

The words of the angel, “I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God,” show that he holds a position of high honor in the heavenly courts. When he came with a message to Daniel, he said, “There is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael [Christ] your Prince.”

- source, page 70
That same michael could not rebuke Satan, but had to have Jesus do that for Him
 
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YeshuaFan

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JW believes Jesus was the archangel a created-being.

We do not beleive Jesus is a created-being- He is the Lord of lords and King of kings, the great I AM. We beleive He uses Titles as Scripture shows in various places.
Many Sda, including EW husband, held to Arianism herersy, and the Sda doctrine switched form holding to jesus as michael to now more akin to Mormonism, 3 gods united in common purpose
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Many Sda, including EW husband, held to Arianism herersy, and the Sda doctrine switched form holding to jesus as michael to now more akin to Mormonism, 3 gods united in common purpose
Its amazing the false things you can read on the internet. SDA;s do not believe in 3 gods.

2. The Trinity​

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.
(Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

People have gotten to a point that whatever they believe in their head, somehow makes it true. A false witness is something we should take seriously.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Its amazing the false things you can read on the internet. SDA;s do not believe in 3 gods.

2. The Trinity​

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.
God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.
(Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

People have gotten to a point that whatever they believe in their head, somehow makes it true. A false witness is something we should take seriously.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This ex-Adventist has been debunked more times than I can count. Anyone who dedicates their life to hate, false witness instead of spreading the gospel, says everything. Believe as you wish, I already provided our official statement of beliefs, all will get sorted out in God's time.
 
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YeshuaFan

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This ex-Adventist has been debunked more times than I can count. Anyone who dedicates their life to hate, false witness instead of spreading the gospel, says everything. Believe as you wish, I already provided our official statement of beliefs, all will get sorted out in God's time.
Sda went from holding to a JW view on Jesus to more akin now to a Lds view it would appear
 
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FireDragon76

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If I remember correctly, there was a minority opinion in some pre-Nicene Christians that Christ and Michael were identical or analogous, and that's probably how the book of Daniel was understood by some- the Son of Man was an angelic or semi-divine figure. Theree's even an Orthodox icon type that depicts Christ as an angel, but it isn't understood literally in modern Orthodoxy.

The philosopher and theologian David Betntley Hart might be useful here, because he'ld argue that ancient Second Temple Judaism, and ancient religion more broadly, had more fluid ideas about divinity that don't fit into later Greek philosophical categories You only really see this in religions like Shinto or Taoism today, but you can see "echoes" of this in Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy.

There are plenty of ancient stories of Moses or Enoch sitting in God's throne and being worshipped, and late ancient Merkabah and Hekhalot mysticism described human ascent to the divine realms, potentially to become a divine or semi-divine being. Most scholars believe this was similar to the background that early Christian theology was working within, not primarily Greek philosophical categories.
 
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The Liturgist

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If I remember correctly, there was a minority opinion in some pre-Nicene Christians that Christ and Michael were identical or analogous, and that's probably how the book of Daniel was understood by some- the Son of Man was an angelic or semi-divine figure

None that I’m aware of - Metatron yes, St. Michael no, but these were not Orthodox groups.

Theree's even an Orthodox icon type that depicts Christ as an angel, but it isn't understood literally in modern Orthodoxy.

That is inaccurate. Icons such as “the Angel of Great Counsel” and “the Hospitality of Abraham,” a Trinitarian icon painted by St. Andrei Rublev, which elegantly uses the three angels who met St. Abraham the Patriarch to represent God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, were always understood to be figurative - indeed the more common of these, The Hospitality of Abraham, is self-evidently figurative. Regarding the other, I’m not entirely sure its canonical; my friends @prodromos or @FenderTL5 might know.

Of course our opinions are doubtless of questionable relevance since the prevailing attitude in the UCC at present seems to be that anyone, such as myself, a former UCC minister, who left the United Church of Christ to become Eastern Orthodox, is most likely sexist and misogynist and converted because I’m somehow opposed to womens’’ rights, or something like that, according to the sentiments of some liberal Christians. My work in helping to support efforts to stop FGM, my support of efforts to help male and female victims of the FLDS cult, known for its polygamy, my opposition to abusive remarks made towards female clergy by some fundamentalists, all are ignored by some because I happen to belong to a church that somehow is sexist because we venerate the Theotokos more than any other saint and honor the wishes of the majority our female members not to ordain women to the offices of presbyter or bishop (in part, ordaining women to presbyter would create an ontological problem, since it would compromise the role of the presbyteras, the wives of presbyters, who serve as mothers to their parish community and are such an important part of the church. Indeed we’re so “sexist and misogynist” (to use a very strange definition of those terms) that we won’t ordain a man without the permission of his wife!

You only really see this in religions like Shinto or Taoism today, but you can see "echoes" of this in Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Dr. David Bentley Hart is not well qualified to speak on Eastern Orthodox theology, considering he discards much of it and advocates for doctrines all Eastern Orthodox churches, and has zero qualifications to speak on Oriental Orthodox theology.

Also I really fail to see what any of this has to do with Restorationist sects claiming that Christ is the Archangel Michael, because there is no evidence that the founders of those sects which believe this were even aware the Eastern Orthodox existed as a discrete entity apart from Roman Catholicism; or that the Oriental Orthodox were even a thing (indeed, the term Oriental Orthodox did not exist at the time, being coined at the Council of Addis Ababa convened by the martyred Emperor Haile Selassie by the hierarchs of the persecuted Ethiopian, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Indian churches, which were less persecuted then than they are now, but there had been the genocide of Armenians and Syriacs in 1915, and the Armenians were being persecuted by Communism, and within the next few decades the persecution would spread to the Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans and Indians, with St. Haile Selassie himself being strangled by the Derg Communists, but at any rate, the term was coined in the 1960s to refer to those Orthodox churches which were negotiating with the Eastern Orthodox but not in communion with them, as an alternative to inaccurate and perjorative terms like “monophysite” and “Jacobite”.

And even if there was awareness of our denominations by the founders of the Restorationist sects in question, the likelihood that any of them would have deep knowledge of our doctrine or be aware of, for instance, The Hospitality of Abraham or other iconography, or the ideas you are presumably alluding to like Theosis (DBH by the way is spectacularly in error if he suggested a fluidity exists between God and Man due to Theosis, a fundamental misunderstanding of what Theosis means, for Theosis is not apotheosis, and according to Eastern Orthodox theology going back to before the Cappadocians, but clearly expressed by them, and later expounded upon by St. Gregory Palams, God is, in his divine essence, entirely incomprehensible, being knowable only in His uncreated energies - which we can participate with, but we are able to see God only because He became man and put on our human nature in the Incarnation, and also, this doctrine is not unique to Eastern Orthodoxy - indeed Theosis as a concept was picked up and translated into Western terminology by John Wesley, who rebranded it “entire sanctification” which is also an apt metaphor. For that matter there are subtle traces of theosis in Lutheran and according to our friend @hedrick even in Calvinist thought.

I assume you know all this, since obviously, the most ardently anti-Catholic sects known to exist such as the J/W cult would not borrow a doctrine from the Orthodox since for them that would be too close to Roman Catholicism; indeed they went so far as to rewrite what we regard as one of the most important verses of the Bible, John 1:1, in an attempt to disprove the Incarnation, the deity of Christ and the Trinity, all of which are central Orthodox doctrines.

They would be more likely I suspect to take a doctrine from Shintoism than from Roman Catholicism, although both seem vanishingly unlikely, because of the ad hominem fallacy that permeates the J/W sect, which they take to such an extreme extent as to deny that Christ was crucified on a cross - despite Scripture literally saying as much, instead insisting, contra scriptura, that he was hanged from a “torture stake”, since Roman Catholics venerate the Cross and wear crucifixes and therefore obviously that doctrine must be false and if the Bible says it, well, it was mistranslated and we can just fix that in our New World translation.

The number of logical fallacies that permeate the J/W cult are tragic - the only thing more tragic is when one looks at the demographics of the people it exploits, for J/WS are not high functioning businessmen of the kind that Mormons exclusively solicit (the LDS is known to do criminal background checks against prospective members), for J/Ws have the lowest per-capita income of any major religious group in the United States. The Unitarian Universalists, whose Unitarian ancestors paradoxically were also characterized by a denial of the Incarnation and the Trinity, but who rejected these doctrines on the basis of Enlightenment philosophy rather than supposed Bible scholarship, although in both cases there was a definite element of anti-Catholic sentiment, are paradoxically the wealthiest on a per capita basis, part of this doubtless being due to the composition of the early Unitarians - the very wealthy Bostonian Yankees, enough of them so the Unitarians were able to seize control of Harvard and expropriate it from the trinitarian Congregationalists, but also doubtless some of it has to do with the alignment of contemporary UUA politics with the prevailing sociopolitical values of the upper classes in American society.

Thus I have to confess I am much more sympathetic to individual J/Ws than I am to members of the UUA, although I am of the opinion that the UUA is as demanding of a docuseries exposing it as the J/Ws (considering widespread cultural appropriation and other bits of hypocrisy, for example, in New Mexico there is a UUA parish that has the temerity to display an Eastern Orthodox cross next to a Sikh symbol, an Islamic crescent, a Star of David, a Taoist Yin/Yang symbol, et cetera, which is so grossly offensive to the Orthodox as to be almost inconceivable.
 
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The Liturgist

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Now these are the only two "archangels" or "chief messengers" that i'm aware of who are named in Scripture.

In addition to St. Gabriel and St. Michael, St. Raphael and St. Uriel are mentioned in Tobit and 2 Esdras respectively. Now, most Protestants do not accept those books as canonical, but some do (notably Anglicans, at least as far as Tobit is concerned; I’m not sure if they have 2 Esdras in the original version of the KJV or not, I shall have to take a look; a complete KJV includes around 72 books, not 66, because under the 39 Articles the “Apocrypha” (technically a misuse of the term - the early church fathers used the term to refer only to spurious or false books, not books which were to be read for edification; the word “Deuterocanonical” being more accurate) were read for edification and moral instruction, and most Anglicans in the US, such as the Episcopalians and high church continuing Anglicans, later set aside the 39 articles while retaining the books in question, so that any of those books can now also be used as a source of doctrine. In addition my understanding is that Lutherans have an open canon, so in principle Lutherans are free to accept these books and use them if they so desire.

The absolute rejection of the Deuterocanon as a matter of doctrine appears to be more of a Calvinist/Baptist/Evangelical idea.
 
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