Jesus & James

[tdidymas]

So we're still just spinning our wheels, rehashing the same old positions. IMO you probably haven't done what I consider to be due diligence in researching historic Christian beliefs, which would be helpful, because you feel that you've got it all figured out already. I'll say this in any case: If you're a person who's persevering well in the love of God and neighbor, the love that you've been shown and given due to your encounter and relationship with Christ, the living God, then you'll be doing His will-with all that implies-already. And that's the true mark of His children.

Why should I research historic Christian beliefs to the same extent as you have? You show me that you believe more in those "historic Christian beliefs" than you do in the Bible itself. And this is what I see in every writing done by an RCC author. IMO your mind has been cluttered by so many fallible authors and people, that you are confused as to how to read the actual scripture. The Bible is my authority, as it has been recognized as such from the beginning. But your authority is grounded in traditional teachings, as is the dogma of the RCC.

Well, this is a friendly parting, and I hope the same for you. Nevertheless, I think you should go back and read what I wrote concerning the scriptures and examine it carefully with the context of those scriptures. And I recommend that you spend a few years reading and studying the Bible exclusively.

Everyone has their own experience, and their own path to take. Only God knows what the end of those paths will look like.

 

[fhansen]

2 Pet. 3:9 clearly shows that not everyone in the churches are true believers - "God is not willing that any of you perish" means that they have not yet repented of their sins by surrendering to Christ. It means they have not yet embraced the gospel of Christ.

Your response here tells me that you believe that faith is mere mental assent, and does not show itself as repentant behavior. This stands to reason because it's what Trent taught, and you are a Trentite. Like I've said before, go ahead and follow your Roman church, and I'll continue following the scriptures, and we'll see how it turns out in the day of judgment.

2 Pet 3:9 says what it means to say: that God wants all to repent...but not all will. And if you have any desire for a responsible knowledge of the Catholic and historic understanding of faith you would only need to begin here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 1

www.scborromeo.org

 

[fhansen]

You mean your truth that comes from the Roman Catholic denomination. I suppose you also have the same attitude that it's the "one true church." But the fact that you don't address Phil. 2:13 tells me that you don't really believe it, because you certainly don't understand it. The wider context of scripture tells me that God is working in Christians, not in unbelievers. Although God is sovereign, and He certainly can manipulate unbelievers in the way that pleases Him.

But the truth you don't understand is in Eph. 2, wherein Paul explains that true believers are gifted spiritually by God, so that no one has anything to boast about regarding their salvation. But your RCC idea that you are the one who makes all the right decisions in life that results in your salvation is really something to boast about. If God asks you why He should let you into His ultimate kingdom, and your response is "I've repented and persevered," why can't you see that is an ultimate boast? I wonder where your faith is really directed.

If you take the human will out of the equation altogether, such that he cannot even say no to grace, to God when He prompts and urges and inspires and calls, then you are left with the non-strawman automaton believer, one who cannot help but turn to Him and cannot help but repent if he turns back away later. You can't have it both ways. And to turn to Him is simply the right thing to do, which is always the case in following His will- just as following His will also always involves grace. No boasting necessary or possible there.

 

[fhansen]

Why should I research historic Christian beliefs to the same extent as you have? You show me that you believe more in those "historic Christian beliefs" than you do in the Bible itself.

I've shown that the historic beliefs are in the fullest alignment with Scriture, as it should be, while you've shown that you've been influenced by novel private interpretations of isolated portions of it.

 

[fhansen]

2. You don't believe 1 Pet. 1:5 that a true believer will endure.

The elect are simply those who will endure to the end. No one knows with 100% certainty who they are-except God.

 

[fhansen]

Well, this is a friendly parting, and I hope the same for you. Nevertheless, I think you should go back and read what I wrote concerning the scriptures and examine it carefully with the context of those scriptures. And I recommend that you spend a few years reading and studying the Bible exclusively.

Everyone has their own experience, and their own path to take. Only God knows what the end of those paths will look like.

Thank you. I've spent years reading the bible-cover to cover many times as well as studies and meditations and readings in and on its many particular parts and subjects. No expert by any means but the bible is the main reason I became Christian. Either way your faith pleases God. I just think it can be better informed and we'll know the answers soon enough-and I imagine that no one will be competely unsurprised by them . God bless.

 

[tdidymas]

If you take the human will out of the equation altogether, such that he cannot even say no to grace, to God when He prompts and urges and inspires and calls, then you are left with the non-strawman automaton believer, one who cannot help but turn to Him and cannot help but repent if he turns back away later. You can't have it both ways. And to turn to Him is simply the right thing to do, which is always the case in following His will- just as following His will also always involves grace. No boasting necessary or possible there.

Automaton is a straw man term, and is an unfair exaggeration. You use the term in order to discredit what I am saying that is based on Phil 2:13, because you don't want to face the fact that what I'm saying is right; IOW you're evading by doing so. The fact is, you simply do not believe that statement the apostle Paul wrote.

 

[tdidymas]

2 Pet 3:9 says what it means to say: that God wants all to repent...but not all will. And if you have any desire for a responsible knowledge of the Catholic and historic understanding of faith you would only need to begin here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 1

www.scborromeo.org

I have no desire to study wrong soteriology. Period. I have read enough of Augustine and others to know that the fundamental soteriology of Trent is "faith + works" which I disagree with. So this is where our paths diverge. Like I said, you follow your leaders and I'll follow the apostles of Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

I've shown that the historic beliefs are in the fullest alignment with Scriture, as it should be, while you've shown that you've been influenced by novel private interpretations of isolated portions of it.

You're wrong. That's all I'll say to this.

 

[tdidymas]

The elect are simply those who will endure to the end. No one knows with 100% certainty who they are-except God.

With this, I'm done.

 

[com7fy8]

Our Apostle Paul says >

"For by grace you have been saved through faith," in Ephesians 2:8.

So, ***grace*** has saved - -

t-h-r-o-u-g-h faith.

Therefore it can not be by faith only, that we are saved, if grace saved us "through faith". But, also, Paul does not say we are saved by faith plus works, but "by grace" "through faith".

So, possibly "faith only" is incorrect, because there needs to be grace. But also "faith plus works" does not necessarily explain how we have been "saved by grace" like Paul says.

So, how does grace save someone?

I consider this > earlier in this chapter we have Ephesians 2:4-5 which says God made us alive after we were dead in our sins. And with this He says "by grace you have been saved" - - - right after Paul says God made us alive.

So, I see He means we were saved by how God in His grace acted to make us become alive.

So, I see this means how grace has saved us by making us alive in Jesus. It does not say faith did this, but grace did > *through* faith. Maybe it's like how the electricity of a heater warms you so you don't freeze to death. But that electricity works by means of the radiator, saving you through your radiator, warming the radiator so it warms you.

Grace made our faith alive, then, maybe we could say, so that the life of grace could save us. But God is the One who has made us alive so we are saved. And I understand that grace is God acting to make us alive in His love, but He does this through faith which He makes alive.

And in Romans 5:10, Paul says "we shall be saved by His life". Here he does not say faith or works will save us! But > we will be "saved by His life". And if grace made us alive, this can mean the life of God's grace made us alive so we are saved; and "His life" which will save us is the life of grace and this is the life of Jesus in us > after all, Christ "is our life", we have in Colossians 3:4.

And we have 1 John 4:17 >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

By being perfected by God's love, then, we have boldness for the day of judgment. I see how this means the life of God's love in us will save us and have us ready for judgment.

If this is right, then fighting between faith with and faith without works is not really correct, either way > I mean, if the life of God's grace makes us perfect in Jesus' love so we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus, then this life of God's grace of His love saved us and will save us.

But > this life makes faith alive so that "through faith" we have been saved, but this works by the life and action of this love.

And does not God in His grace also have us doing His works? He makes faith alive and He makes us alive in works of His love. And we minister the grace of God "to one another", as we are commanded to do > 1 Peter 4:9-10. This grace changes us to become perfect in God's love so we are ready for "the day of judgment" (1John 4:17). And we do ministerial works in order to minister this grace.

And Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6. So, I can see we need to do the works of God's love so we are spreading the effect of God's love to one another to feed each other to grow in Jesus.

But what works, really, is how God in His love cures our character to become conformed to Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus and each other.

Faith alone, then, does not save us. And faith plus works cannot conform us to Jesus, because "we will be saved by His life," we have in Romans 5:10.

 

[Valletta]

1. Your fear of losing salvation due to "unrepentance" is not good news.

Philippians 2:12​

Shining as Lights in the World​

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

Why would anyone who believed they were saved forever have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? The Bible just does not support once saved, always saved.

 

[fhansen]

You're wrong. That's all I'll say to this.

How can one know without looking? I've done pretty well at "hearing the other side" in my life. While JWs, for example, shy away from reading "apostate literature" for fear of being swayed perhaps, I've actually studied their material along with that of other similarly suspect groups only to give them a chance rather than only reading material that opposes their positions. That doesn't mean we have to chase down every doctrinal rabbit trail out there but at the same time seeking truth is always a matter of seeking God at the end of the day and if our faith is so fragile that it can't stand up to challenges then, well, you know. Either way the patristcs are the legacy of all Christians, know it or not.

 

[fhansen]

I have no desire to study wrong soteriology. Period. I have read enough of Augustine and others to know that the fundamental soteriology of Trent is "faith + works" which I disagree with. So this is where our paths diverge. Like I said, you follow your leaders and I'll follow the apostles of Christ.

No, you'll just follow your own opinion/interpretations which in turn have been molded by relatively late-coming exegetes. Right now on another thread I've observed at least three differing positons on a signifcant matter of faith being argued between "spiritually-minded" Sola Scriptura adherents.

 

[fhansen]

Automaton is a straw man term, and is an unfair exaggeration. You use the term in order to discredit what I am saying that is based on Phil 2:13, because you don't want to face the fact that what I'm saying is right; IOW you're evading by doing so. The fact is, you simply do not believe that statement the apostle Paul wrote.

If you're convinced that Phil 2:13 means that the will of the elect have no role to play in their coming to and remaining in Christ, in that they must be totally and irressistibly "overhauled" first, then the term I used is not an exaggeration.

 

[tdidymas]

Our Apostle Paul says >

"For by grace you have been saved through faith," in Ephesians 2:8.

So, ***grace*** has saved - -

t-h-r-o-u-g-h faith.

Therefore it can not be by faith only, that we are saved, if grace saved us "through faith". But, also, Paul does not say we are saved by faith plus works, but "by grace" "through faith".

So, possibly "faith only" is incorrect, because there needs to be grace. But also "faith plus works" does not necessarily explain how we have been "saved by grace" like Paul says.

So, how does grace save someone?

I consider this > earlier in this chapter we have Ephesians 2:4-5 which says God made us alive after we were dead in our sins. And with this He says "by grace you have been saved" - - - right after Paul says God made us alive.

So, I see He means we were saved by how God in His grace acted to make us become alive.

So, I see this means how grace has saved us by making us alive in Jesus. It does not say faith did this, but grace did > *through* faith. Maybe it's like how the electricity of a heater warms you so you don't freeze to death. But that electricity works by means of the radiator, saving you through your radiator, warming the radiator so it warms you.

Grace made our faith alive, then, maybe we could say, so that the life of grace could save us. But God is the One who has made us alive so we are saved. And I understand that grace is God acting to make us alive in His love, but He does this through faith which He makes alive.

And in Romans 5:10, Paul says "we shall be saved by His life". Here he does not say faith or works will save us! But > we will be "saved by His life". And if grace made us alive, this can mean the life of God's grace made us alive so we are saved; and "His life" which will save us is the life of grace and this is the life of Jesus in us > after all, Christ "is our life", we have in Colossians 3:4.

And we have 1 John 4:17 >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

By being perfected by God's love, then, we have boldness for the day of judgment. I see how this means the life of God's love in us will save us and have us ready for judgment.

If this is right, then fighting between faith with and faith without works is not really correct, either way > I mean, if the life of God's grace makes us perfect in Jesus' love so we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus, then this life of God's grace of His love saved us and will save us.

But > this life makes faith alive so that "through faith" we have been saved, but this works by the life and action of this love.

And does not God in His grace also have us doing His works? He makes faith alive and He makes us alive in works of His love. And we minister the grace of God "to one another", as we are commanded to do > 1 Peter 4:9-10. This grace changes us to become perfect in God's love so we are ready for "the day of judgment" (1John 4:17). And we do ministerial works in order to minister this grace.

And Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6. So, I can see we need to do the works of God's love so we are spreading the effect of God's love to one another to feed each other to grow in Jesus.

But what works, really, is how God in His love cures our character to become conformed to Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus and each other.

Faith alone, then, does not save us. And faith plus works cannot conform us to Jesus, because "we will be saved by His life," we have in Romans 5:10.

I appreciate your attempt to explain it according to your understanding. However, I should point out something to you. Rom. 10:10 says, "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" - meaning it's something not merely of the mind. It takes God saving us in order for us to have the faith that justifies. "The one who believes" is a description of one who is already born again, since 1 Jn. 5:1 says, "Everyone who believes... has been born of God." The point is, that spiritual birth drives faith, which results in justification. Therefore, faith is the gift of God and is part of the salvation that is God's gift stated in Eph. 2:8. When Paul says "through faith," he is talking about the gospel being preached and we hear it for the first time with the heart, because God has raised us to life from spiritual death, as he is describing in Eph. 2:1-10.

So here is the logical progression: God chose us before we existed, God then prepares us with whatever knowledge and wisdom we need to accept the gospel and sets us apart for adoption, at a certain time in our life He exercises His grace to us and raises us from spiritual death (while the gospel is preached), then we believe the gospel and are justified, and our life begins to display the sanctification God is doing with the fruit of the Spirit. I hope this clarifies things.

All this obviously requires that we believe in the providential work of God, and are trusting Him to direct us in all things (Prov. 3:5-6).

 

[tdidymas]

Philippians 2:12​

Shining as Lights in the World​

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

Why would anyone who believed they were saved forever have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? The Bible just does not support once saved, always saved.

It's because you don't believe in Phil. 2:13 either.

 

[tdidymas]

How can one know without looking? I've done pretty well at "hearing the other side" in my life. While JWs, for example, shy away from reading "apostate literature" for fear of being swayed perhaps, I've actually studied their material along with that of other similarly suspect groups only to give them a chance rather than only reading material that opposes their positions. That doesn't mean we have to chase down every doctrinal rabbit trail out there but at the same time seeking truth is always a matter of seeking God at the end of the day and if our faith is so fragile that it can't stand up to challenges then, well, you know. Either way the patristcs are the legacy of all Christians, know it or not.

What I get from you is that you read the patristics with the same bias that you read the scripture. I'm not going any further with you. Like I said before, you go ahead and follow men, and I will follow the scripture.

 

[tdidymas]

No, you'll just follow your own opinion/interpretations which in turn have been molded by relatively late-coming exegetes. Right now on another thread I've observed at least three differing positons on a signifcant matter of faith being argued between "spiritually-minded" Sola Scriptura adherents.

You've already admitted that you read Augustine with bias, therefore you're not as accepting of the patristics as you claim.

I don't care what other people claim. Everyone has their own opinion, and sometimes they are wrong. I follow whatever God's word says, regardless of what anyone says about it. So with this, I'm not going any further with you because you obviously adhere to your own opinion in the same way you complain about so many others. Your claim that the "historic Christian faith" adheres to the scriptures merely means that you believe whatever the RCC (i.e. Trent and the catechism) tells you to believe. But the Bible I read says, "Let God be true, though every man be found a liar," which is Paul's way of saying he believes in what God says, regardless of what men may say about it.

 

[tdidymas]

If you're convinced that Phil 2:13 means that the will of the elect have no role to play in their coming to and remaining in Christ, in that they must be totally and irressistibly "overhauled" first, then the term I used is not an exaggeration.

Your objection is a straw man and not valid, as it reeks of your prejudice. What you claim I may be "convinced" of is completely irrelevant and immaterial to what I've been saying. Whenever the elect are willing their way into the kingdom of Christ, it is God working in them, willing and working His pleasure. This is the obvious application of what Phil. 2:13 says. But then, according to all your responses, you don't believe in the providential working of God in the hearts of the elect. It's fairly obvious to me that your typical response to that is - "if that were true, then the elect would be automatons."