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Jesus & James

tdidymas

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Call it what you like but a rose is a rose by any other name. You claim that a person is irrevocably regenerated, saved, all at once before even expressing faith and that they can longer do any wrong-at least enough wrong to permanently separate them from God since He'll always bring them back to repentance. Pretty much excludes the role of man's will entirely. And you say that a brother may be in need of exhortation to repentance lest he be lost. And yet you cannot identify what kind of sin might require that repentance.
Why identify a point of no return? If a person is obsessed with that, then it indicates he is desperately hanging on to "control" because he hasn't yet surrendered all control to God. But if you really need it, Jesus identified that point - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So let me see. A regenerated person no longer sins at least sufficiently and persistently enough for him to be considered an unregenerated person. If he does sin, however, God will bring him back to repentance. And we can predict that we, individually, will persevere. And maybe it doesn’t even matter anyway since faith really does away with the need for obedience.
Yet more lack of understanding of what Biblical faith really is, and the effect that God has on a person. This tells me you really don't believe in the power of God to save, so you have to add your efforts to it.
The truth is that we’re saved unto obedience: the two, salvation and obedience, going hand in hand. We cannot have one without the other. In Galatians, Romans, Philippians, and elsewhere Paul consistently objected to and condemned works of the law as worthless, the idea that an external show of holiness actually equated to holiness. This is why Jesus told the Pharisees in Matt 23 that they must be clean on the inside first of all in order for the outside to be authentically clean. And He told them to clean the inside, just as Rev 22 tells us to wash our robes. At the same time Paul also condemns deeds of the flesh, sin, i.e. lawlessness as the cause of death. How is this reconciled? How do we accomplish this cleansing? By the Spirit, who gives life, not by the letter, which kills. Grace, through the Holy Spirit, gives us that ability, to do good: Rom 2:7, to overcome sin: Rom 8:12-13, to be holy: Heb 12:14, to do those works prepared for us in advance: Eph 2:10. These are specifically not works of the law but works of grace given us by God as we turn to Him in faith, gifts that we’re to express, just as we accept and express that gift of faith to begin with. That’s how God works in man, and that’s how we invest the talents given us, as we cooperate with His work. Alternatively, we can also fail to invest, like the wicked and lazy servant.

Fruit is the result of justification as righteousness is the result of justification. Due to that state of justice, we are saved. If we walk unjustly, we are no longer in that state. And, in fact, again, this statement of Micah’s written some 700 years before Christ hasn’t changed a bit under the new covenant.

“He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.”
Micah 6:8
Yet more of your prejudices and misrepresentations are detailed here. It's not the scriptures you cite I have any problem with, but your error.
 
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tdidymas

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I'll translate: you had no answer.

We can enter His rest-and we can leave it. In any case works of the law have no place there, in that rest, while obedience nonetheless does- as entering His rest and disobedience are mutually exclusive. Again, Jesus' burden is light-not nonexistent.
Yet more drivel. You haven't understood anything I've said, and I'm not going to repeat it for you. I'm about done here.
 
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tdidymas

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The church never accepted all that Augustine taught, such as his teaching on the transmission of original sin and his leaning towards double-predestination, as examples.

But that doesn’t even matter in this case because of very crucial nuances. To say the elect will persevere is redundant: the elect will obviously be saved- so they must persevere. But that’s theoretical as it applies to any one Individual because, as both Augustine and the church taught, no one can know with certainty that they have the gift of perseverance.
Wrong. Salvation is a gift, and it comes with all that involves it, including perseverance. Again, you simply don't believe 1 Pet. 1:5.
 
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tdidymas

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They're not puppets but God will make them persevere. Sure, of course.

But looking to God is the answer, yes. If we don't have good fruit, if we're not overcoming sin, then we're not looking to God regardless of any self-anaylsis suggesting the contrary. With good fruit -born of love- we can have great confidence that we're now on the right path-with and to Him.
This looks like you're changing your tune, like you're now saying you believe in perseverance.
 
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tdidymas

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You’re not addressing the question. Who’s speaking about condemning anyone? I’m speaking of identifying the sin that can condemn us to death. And if we’re now going to just minimize sin as mistakes then sin should’ve never caused any riff between man and God to begin with in which case there would be no need for atonement and reconciliation. Or if we’re antinomian, then no such sin can exist now anyway for a believer.
The only sin in scripture that says won't be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So I'll ask a question: if I identity myself as a believer and yet I fall into and cannot seem to disengage from persistent adultery (I once knew a born-again pastor who experienced this), should I, 1) be unconcerned, resting in God and the knowledge that I’m saved by faith and not by works, or 2) start worrying about my relationship with Him and my eternal destiny?

The answer is that, yes, there are degrees of sin that mean separation from God, sin that leads to death. Now if you were to read the post from another thread that I recently suggested, we’d at least have some additional input with which to further this conversation profitability IMO, instead of just spinning our wheels. Post # 669:
If mortal sin is persistent, then a person has reason to worry. The real question is, will that person seek God for deliverance? Such will tell if the person is a true believer or not. Think about it: if a person never seeks Christ for deliverance from sin, how can they possibly be a true believer?

So let me ask you a question: You and I believe in opposing theories. You claim that a true believer can fall away and be lost forever, and I claim that a true believer will never fall away and be lost. So then, let our lives prove out the theory. I'll persevere in faith until the end, and you go ahead and fall away and end up blaspheming the Holy Spirit and be lost, so that you can prove out your theory.

But if you say you'll never do that, then you're actually proving my theory, which I base on 1 Pet. 1:5.
 
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fhansen

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Wrong. Salvation is a gift, and it comes with all that involves it, including perseverance. Again, you simply don't believe 1 Pet. 1:5.
I believe all of the bible, allowing all parts to illuminate the truth together, one part often giving fuller light to another. Your main error is in thinking that a true believer becomes a once-saved-always-saved-automaton.
 
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fhansen

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This looks like you're changing your tune, like you're now saying you believe in perseverance.
I've always maintained that we can have a strong assurance, for the right reasons, but not 100% certainty as you believe.
 
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fhansen

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Why identify a point of no return? If a person is obsessed with that, then it indicates he is desperately hanging on to "control" because he hasn't yet surrendered all control to God. But if you really need it, Jesus identified that point - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
I haven't talked about points of no return-I actually don't believe there is such a thing as long as one doesn't persist in unrepentance. Either way I've only spoken about identifying sin (1 John 5, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:8, Rev 21:7-8, Rev 22: 14-17, Rom 6:21, Rom 8:12-13) that leads to death as Scripture does-so that we can return, or help a brother to do so. Now, if a person has truly, permanently, surrendered all to God, truly loving Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength to put it another way, then, yes, they will never be comitting such deeds in thought or deed anyway.
 
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fhansen

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Yet more lack of understanding of what Biblical faith really is, and the effect that God has on a person. This tells me you really don't believe in the power of God to save, so you have to add your efforts to it.
I just go by God's revealed will as understood since the begining and as reflected in the bible: how He want things done IOW, not what you or I want.
 
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tdidymas

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I believe all of the bible, allowing all parts to illuminate the truth together, one part often giving fuller light to another. Your main error is in thinking that a true believer becomes a once-saved-always-saved-automaton.
Your "automation" idea is a straw man. You just don't believe Phil. 2:13.
 
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tdidymas

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I've always maintained that we can have a strong assurance, for the right reasons, but not 100% certainty as you believe.
If your "reason" is because you can maintain it by your works, then your "strong assurance" could be a false sense of assurance, because Paul condemned a salvation by faith + works scenario in Galatians.
 
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tdidymas

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I haven't talked about points of no return-I actually don't believe there is such a thing as long as one doesn't persist in unrepentance. Either way I've only spoken about identifying sin (1 John 5, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:8, Rev 21:7-8, Rev 22: 14-17, Rom 6:21, Rom 8:12-13) that leads to death as Scripture does-so that we can return, or help a brother to do so. Now, if a person has truly, permanently, surrendered all to God, truly loving Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength to put it another way, then, yes, they will never be comitting such deeds in thought or deed anyway.
Almost, but no cigar. I quote you: "...at least enough wrong to permanently separate them from God" - and you claim you never talked about a point of no return - I think you contradict yourself.
 
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tdidymas

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I just go by God's revealed will as understood since the begining and as reflected in the bible: how He want things done IOW, not what you or I want.
Again, you don't seem to know about, or believe, Phil 2:13. But this brings up the question, are you really spiritual minded, or do you judge everything according to your natural reasoning?
 
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fhansen

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Almost, but no cigar. I quote you: "...at least enough wrong to permanently separate them from God" - and you claim you never talked about a point of no return - I think you contradict yourself.
I see why you responded that way then. Ok, sin that leads to death is the equivalent of sin that can permanently separate one from God-that's what this death is. IMO there is no sin that cannot be repented of; unrepentance can become the ultimate problem as it constitutes a refusal to turn to God, or turn back to Him. But if you think that there is no sin that can permanently separate a "true beliver" from God simply because you believe that such a person will eventually, automatically and inescapably repent then you've failed to believe the other half of the new testament so to speak, or understand the gospel fully.
 
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fhansen

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Again, you don't seem to know about, or believe, Phil 2:13. But this brings up the question, are you really spiritual minded, or do you judge everything according to your natural reasoning?
Maybe not. I can translate again though. Anyone who agrees with your particular interpetation of Scripture is "spiritually"-minded.

God works in you, that doesn't mean you'll respond any more than it means that all will repent even though He desires them to (2 Pet 3:9).
 
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fhansen

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So we're still just spinning our wheels, rehashing the same old positions. IMO you probably haven't done what I consider to be due diligence in researching historic Christian beliefs, which would be helpful, because you feel that you've got it all figured out already. I'll say this in any case: If you're a person who's persevering well in the love of God and neighbor, the love that you've been shown and given due to your encounter and relationship with Christ, the living God, then you'll be doing His will-with all that implies-already. And that's the true mark of His children.
 
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tdidymas

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I see why you responded that way then. Ok, sin that leads to death is the equivalent of sin that can permanently separate one from God-that's what this death is. IMO there is no sin that cannot be repented of; unrepentance can become the ultimate problem as it constitutes a refusal to turn to God, or turn back to Him. But if you think that there is no sin that can permanently separate a "true beliver" from God simply because you believe that such a person will eventually, automatically and inescapably repent then you've failed to believe the other half of the new testament so to speak, or understand the gospel fully.
I say you're the one who doesn't understand the gospel fully, for these reasons:
1. Your fear of losing salvation due to "unrepentance" is not good news.
2. You don't believe 1 Pet. 1:5 that a true believer will endure.
3. You're a follower of ECFs, not the apostles.
4. You can't see that all the NT writings assume that some people among Christians are not Christians, just as some (most) among Jews were not Jews (i.e. spiritually).
 
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tdidymas

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Maybe not. I can translate again though. Anyone who agrees with your particular interpetation of Scripture is "spiritually"-minded.

God works in you, that doesn't mean you'll respond any more than it means that all will repent even though He desires them to (2 Pet 3:9).
2 Pet. 3:9 clearly shows that not everyone in the churches are true believers - "God is not willing that any of you perish" means that they have not yet repented of their sins by surrendering to Christ. It means they have not yet embraced the gospel of Christ.

Your response here tells me that you believe that faith is mere mental assent, and does not show itself as repentant behavior. This stands to reason because it's what Trent taught, and you are a Trentite. Like I've said before, go ahead and follow your Roman church, and I'll continue following the scriptures, and we'll see how it turns out in the day of judgment.
 
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tdidymas

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Nah, just the truth.
You mean your truth that comes from the Roman Catholic denomination. I suppose you also have the same attitude that it's the "one true church." But the fact that you don't address Phil. 2:13 tells me that you don't really believe it, because you certainly don't understand it. The wider context of scripture tells me that God is working in Christians, not in unbelievers. Although God is sovereign, and He certainly can manipulate unbelievers in the way that pleases Him.

But the truth you don't understand is in Eph. 2, wherein Paul explains that true believers are gifted spiritually by God, so that no one has anything to boast about regarding their salvation. But your RCC idea that you are the one who makes all the right decisions in life that results in your salvation is really something to boast about. If God asks you why He should let you into His ultimate kingdom, and your response is "I've repented and persevered," why can't you see that is an ultimate boast? I wonder where your faith is really directed.
 
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