Jesus is the SON not the Father.
- Thread starter edpobre
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EveofGrace,
Didn't you notice Rom. 15:6, the verse that Undead quoted? It reads, thus:
"that you may WITH one mind and one mouth GLORIFY the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ."
Our Lord Jesus Christ HAS a God!
Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus SAYS the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).
Apostle Paul SAYS Jesus is a MAN (1 Ti. 2:5). Apostle Paul SAYS there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6).
EveofGrace, you are NOT the SAVIOR, are you? And YOUR Word is NOT what Jesus was referring to in John 17:17, is it?
What makes you THINK that what you are saying is ACCEPTABLE to God when it CONTRADICTS His Word?
Ed
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dnich163,
While it is true that a lot of people are at ease with the Trinity, that does NOT mean these people are CERTAIN of attaining eternal life.
Apostle Paul SAYS Jesus HAS a God and Father (Rom. 15:6; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3). He learned this from Jesus.
Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus SAYS the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).
Do you believe that Jesus is the SAVIOR? Do you believe that anyone who does NOT believe what Jesus SAYS has NO life (John 3:36) and is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18)?
Don't you THINK it is a WASTE of time, money and effort to get involved into something that you know won't amount to anything in the end?
Ed
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You aren't the SAVIOR, are you? In short, your word doesn't count, right?
Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus SAYS the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).
Jesus is the SAVIOR, right? Then it's your word AGAINST his Dee Dee. Which should I follow?
Ed
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Ed, the Bible says that God is a amn. Why do you keep ignoring this verse?
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
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Col. 1:15 - He is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION.
If Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION, he CANNOT be the creator. Besides, the Son = the IMAGE of the true God; while the Father = the TRUE God.
Col. 1:16 is NOT even consistent with Col. 1:17. Col. 1:16 says "for BY him..." while Col. 1:17 says, "all things were created THROUGH him..."
"WITHOUT him" means that God would NOT have CREATED anything if Jesus was NOT part of His plan. In other words, "WITHOUT him" means, "because of him."
Ed
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OldShepherd,
My Bible SAYS: "The Lord is a WARRIOR. The Lord is his name."
My God SAYS: "...I am God and NOT man...""(Hosea 11:9).
My Savior SAYS: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN..." (John 8:40).
Why don't you turn the pages of YOUR Bible to Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19 and find out if God is a MAN.
Ed
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Ed, since you reject every verse in the N.T. which contradicts your interpretation of John 8:40, I thus reject the verses you posted. If John 8:40 is the ONLY verse in the N.T. which can be used to decide the nature of Jesus, then you must from this one verse ONLY prove that God is NOT a man. In my previous post I said stick strictly to the original language NOT one of your cult translations.
Here is the original language of Exodus 15:3, with the definition of each word in English. The verse does NOT say God was a warrior, as your mistranslation says but that God is a MAN of war. The word man, "ish" is undisputably in that verse. But your cult translation twisted the meaning of the verse because if they translate it correctly, it contradicts your man made doctrine.
Exodus 15:3 יהוה איש מלחמה יהוה שמו
יהוה (YHWH) איש (a man) מלחמה (of war) יהוה (YHWH) שמו (his name)
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Yesterday at 07:52 AM OldShepherd said this in Post #189
Well, if you want to bury your head in the sand so you won't hear the truth, that's up to you. It's not my salvation that's at stake, it's yours.
I just want to remind you that John 8:40 is NOT my interpretation. It is Jesus himself saying that he is a MAN. And Hosea 11:9 is God speaking, NOT anybody else.
God SAYS he is NOT a MAN that He should LIE... (Num. 23:19). My version of the Bible SAYS "God is a WARRIOR." If you prefer to stick with a MISTRANSLATION, that's also up to you.
Again I repeat, it's your salvation at stake, NOT mine.
Ed
Well, if you want to bury your head in the sand so you won't hear the truth, that's up to you. It's not my salvation that's at stake, it's yours.
I just want to remind you that John 8:40 is NOT my interpretation. It is Jesus himself saying that he is a MAN. And Hosea 11:9 is God speaking, NOT anybody else.
God SAYS he is NOT a MAN that He should LIE... (Num. 23:19). My version of the Bible SAYS "God is a WARRIOR." If you prefer to stick with a MISTRANSLATION, that's also up to you.
Again I repeat, it's your salvation at stake, NOT mine.
Ed
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I have a question. In Mark 11 Jesus curses the temple. Now only God can curse the temple which Isaiah and Jesus called God's house and a house of prayer. So how could Jesus do this if He was not God? Note all the OT prohets like Jeremiah who cursed the temple did not actually curse the temple themselves but only told what God did. That God told them that HE was cursing it. In contrast Jesus curses it Himself. How can He do this unless He has the authority of God?
Mark 11:12-26
12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry.
13 Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went {to see} if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
14 He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.
15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves;
16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple.
17 And He {began} to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, "MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."
18 The chief priests and the scribes heard {this} and {began} seeking how to destroy Him; for they were afraid of Him, for the whole crowd was astonished at His teaching.
19 When evening came, they would go out of the city.
20 As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots {up.}
21 Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."
22 And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.
23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be {granted} him.
24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be {granted} you.
25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
26 ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]
(NAU)
Here is the OT verses in which Jesus quoted about the den of theives.
Jer 7:11-15
11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen {it} "declares the LORD.
12 "But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I made My name dwell at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel.
13 "And now, because you have done all these things," declares the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer,
14 therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
15 "I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim.
(NAU)
Mark 11:12-26
12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry.
13 Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went {to see} if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
14 He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.
15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves;
16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple.
17 And He {began} to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, "MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."
18 The chief priests and the scribes heard {this} and {began} seeking how to destroy Him; for they were afraid of Him, for the whole crowd was astonished at His teaching.
19 When evening came, they would go out of the city.
20 As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots {up.}
21 Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."
22 And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.
23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, "Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be {granted} him.
24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be {granted} you.
25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
26 ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]
(NAU)
Here is the OT verses in which Jesus quoted about the den of theives.
Jer 7:11-15
11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen {it} "declares the LORD.
12 "But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I made My name dwell at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel.
13 "And now, because you have done all these things," declares the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer,
14 therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
15 "I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim.
(NAU)
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
And let me remind you I posted the word of GOD, Exodus 15:3, the original Hebrew with the English equivalent beside each word. NOT my interpretation! The word "warrior"does NOT appear in that verse anywhere!
How can what I posted be a MISTRANSLATION, I posted the original Hebrew? It is you who is posting a MISTRANSLATION, you keep posting your cult translation over and over again and ignoring the original Hebrew because the REAL word of God proves your cult translation to be the word of the deceiver!
Here, once again, is the original Hebrew of Exodus 15:3, with the definition of each word in English. The verse does NOT say God was a warrior, as your mistranslation says but that God is a MAN of war. The word man, "ish" is undisputably in that verse. But your cult translation twisted the meaning of the verse because if they translate it correctly, it contradicts your man made doctrine.
Exodus 15:3 יהוה איש מלחמה יהוה שמו
יהוה (YHWH) איש (a man) מלחמה (of war) יהוה (YHWH) שמו (his name)
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Image of the true God? Didnt it say image of the INVISIBLE God? Ahaaaa! Therein lies a blindfold.
The firstborn of all creation has to do with redemption of mankind. Creation existed before Jesus was begotten. None however, no man, had retained the right to inherit its rule before Him. He is the image of the invisible CREATOR(Himself in flesh), not the invisible CREATION. He therefore is FIRSTBORN from among, keyword OF all creation. He can be, and is the very Word that formed it AND the very firstborn to INHERIT it. Anyone who believe on Him, is also born into the same inheritance.
Jesus WAS a man, for 33 or so years ONLY, for ONE purpose, stated above actually. As that firstborn, YES, The Father is GOD. Anyone living inside of a body of flesh REQUIRES God. Cannot the Creator redeem His own Creation? Thanks Be to Him, He did.
He left heaven, came to earth as redeemer of it,(manKIND) and LEFT AGAIN. Where is His body? Where is this man? The tomb is EMPTY!
EveOfGrace
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OldShepherd,
Exodus 15:3 was SANG by Moses and the children of Israel (v.1). My Bible SAYS, "The Lord is a WARRIOR. The Lord is His name."
On the other hand, Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19 is God Himself talking and saying that he is God and NOT a MAN.
Please look up Hosea 11:9 and Nmbers 23:19 in your Hebrew Bible and tell me if God is lying.
Ed
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Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). But everything he SAYS or SPEAKS is a COMMAND from God (John 12:49). Jesus further SAID that what he sees the Father do, for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father SHOWS him all things that He Himself does (John 5:19-20).
Yes, Jesus has the authority of God because God AUTHORIZED him to DO and SAY these things.
Ed
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Then why do you IGNORE Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9? Tell me how your Hebrew translation of Exodus 15:3 HARMONIZE with Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9.
For the benefit of your followers OldShepherd, tell them how YOUR version of Exodus 15:3 is NOT a MISTRANSLATION in the light of Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9.
For once be HONEST OldShepherd!
Ed
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23rd February 2003 at 07:58 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #194
Isn't the INVISIBLE God, the TRUE God? And if Jesus is God and he is the IMAGE of the TRUE God, then YOU have just MADE Jesus a FALSE God!
If Jesus were God, why does he HAVE to be born? Why does he HAVE to INHERIT something? And what is it that he will INHERIT? Isn't EVERYTHING from God?
I'm glad you finally admit that Jesus WAS a MAN for 33 years ONLY. But why ONLY, EveOfGrace? If I recall correctly, you once said that Jesus is the SAME yesterday, today and for ever. Didn't you?
Who is NOW the mediator between God and men? That MAN Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).
Who was APPOINTED by God to judge the world? The MAN He ordained (Acts 17:31).
Who will all tribes SEE (God is INVISIBLE) when he comes? The Son of MAN (Matt. 24:30).
Where is Jesus NOW? He is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).
Ed
Isn't the INVISIBLE God, the TRUE God? And if Jesus is God and he is the IMAGE of the TRUE God, then YOU have just MADE Jesus a FALSE God!
If Jesus were God, why does he HAVE to be born? Why does he HAVE to INHERIT something? And what is it that he will INHERIT? Isn't EVERYTHING from God?
I'm glad you finally admit that Jesus WAS a MAN for 33 years ONLY. But why ONLY, EveOfGrace? If I recall correctly, you once said that Jesus is the SAME yesterday, today and for ever. Didn't you?
Who is NOW the mediator between God and men? That MAN Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).
Who was APPOINTED by God to judge the world? The MAN He ordained (Acts 17:31).
Who will all tribes SEE (God is INVISIBLE) when he comes? The Son of MAN (Matt. 24:30).
Where is Jesus NOW? He is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).
Ed
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OLDoMiNiON
Senior Member
hmm, it is strange that both the NIV and NASB both say:
3 The Lord is a Warrior. The Lord is His name
ant the KJV and NKJV both say:
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Curious how 2 different interpretations of the same verse by 2 different groups of *experienced* translator, both came up with different translations.. :-S - is there more than one hebrew/greek source?
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Then why do you IGNORE the rest of the New Testament? Tell me how your cult translation of Acts 2:22 HARMONIZES with the rest of the New Testament.
For the benefit of your followers El Pobre, tell them how YOUR version of Acts 2:22 is NOT a MISTRANSLATION in the light the rest of the New Testament.
For once be HONEST Ed!
You see Ed whenever anyone posts any scripture which contradicts the Iglesia Ni Manalo cult you quote Acts 2:22, you ignore everything else. Anything that contradicts you is "mistranslated" BUT you insist on referring to other verses when I quote a verse AND you even claimed it was a mistranslation and tried to bring in your cult translation.
Ed I'm not even trying to convince you I just keep posting the truth and maybe someone who isn't as knowledgable will be prevented from falling into the heretical INC cult.
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