Jesus is the SON not the Father.

[edward]

amen EveofGrace

 

[Job_38]

John 10:30- I and [my] Father are one.

 

[lared]

Job_38

When my spouse and I got married...the minister said that we were now one.

What did that mean?

Sincerely, Lared

 

[drmmjr]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace
the son of Mary? Mary was a woman. doesnt it go a little farther than that?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can't a woman have a son? She was the one that God chose to bear His Son. He could have chosen anyone, but Mary had the right credentials.

Luke 1:28 - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 - And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 - And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 - And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 - He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 - And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 - Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

First you said LOGOS means a word, uttered by a LIVING voice. Then you say its a plan? And because the 'plan' was not physical it was then not active?[/B]

Is God not LIVING? You forgot the rest of what I posted.

Word is translated from LOGOS. LOGOS - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea.

It is a word that embodies a concetption or idea.

The Plan was active, it's just that the part that Jesus has in that plan did not happen until he was born. A plan is made up of many parts. Just because one part has not happened yet, doen't mean that the whole plan is not active.

What is this plan that we've been speaking about? It's God's plan of salvation for man to remove the sin that Adam caused in the Garden of Eden. God had the plan from the very beginning. God knows the beginning from the end.

So the old testament prophets were speaking of something inactive. Doesnt it say, the Logos WAS God and with God? Was God then inactive because He is Spirit rather than a physical manifestation? Even if you use the word 'plan', it still sais, and the Plan was with God and the Plan was God. Either way, Word, Logos, Plan, it still sais WAS GOD. And the word, logos, plan, was MADE FLESH and dwelt among us. You said God created Jesus in the womb of Mary. But God sais that He already WAS, in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. Does that sound inactive? WAS GOD, and MADE flesh.

Jesus IS the "Word. Logos, Plan" made flesh. When he was born, the plan of salvation came one more step towards being complete. When a building is built, someone has an idea about what they want to build. Until a blueprint, or building plan, is drawn, it is just an idea in someone's mind. When a plan is drawn, the idea becomes embodied.

It's so simple. Why can't you see it.

Christ does mean 'annointed'. Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation"

Have you ever looked up the meaning of the words "Jeremiah" or Elijah"? "Elijah" means God Himself , and the word "Jeremiah" means the High God. Where these men God? No they were named those names so that the people would know who they were speaking for.

How is Jehovah salvation when its the name of Jesus by which man is saved? Because Jesus IS Jehovah our salvation. Look at what Edward posted. God is our Savior. Jesus is our Savior. They are one. My name is Eve. I am a mother, i am also a daughter, but still one ME.

Let's say a boat is sinking and they call the Coast Guard to come and help them. The Coast Guard radio person then calls the ship that is closest to the sinking boat. The ship arrives and safely gets the people off of the boat. Now, who is the saviour in this instance? Well, it is several people. It is the Coast Guard radio person, but it is also the people on the rescue ship. Why is that? The radio person can't go to save the sinking boat because of where they are, so they sent their representative to get the job done. Both parties are the saviours of the people in the sinking boat.

One in our beliefs and that is all that unifies us? What goal are we working toward that makes us one? We are ONE BODY. What? This must really be hard for you if you see Jesus as separate from God.

SO now you say that Jesus is seperate from God. I thought you believed that he was God the son?

If Mary as Jesus mother, passed on to Him her fleshly nature, which makes man a man, then what did Jehovah as Jesus Father, pass on to Him? His Godly nature, which makes God God. Is it really so hard to understand?

So from what I understand you to say, is that Jesus has God's DNA? The power of God overshadowed Mary and caused Mary to conceive. Think of it like this: Jesus was like a test tube baby. Mary conceived not by the normal means of her egg being fertilized by a male, but by the power of God causing it to happen. Just like in Genesis, God spoke the word and it was.

 

[drmmjr]

Originally posted by lared
Job_38

When my spouse and I got married...the minister said that we were now one.

What did that mean?

Sincerely, Lared

I'm not sure what Job_38 will say, but you are one couple. True, you are still two people, but you are not two couples are you.

One is one. A single unit is a single unit. The units may be different, but they are still a single unit. A flock of sheep is still just one flock. A bunch of grapes, is still just one bunch.

 

[Evee]

Wow that is good examples and it has to be true because the scriptures say it over and over again..

Thanks Lared and drmmjr   Evee

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

The emphasis of this post is on knowing that the Father is the ONLY true God - not on knowing the son who was SENT by the ONLY true God.

That is unfortunate.  Why make emphasis on knowing the Father but not the Son when the verse does say, 'that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom You sent.'  The everlasting life spoken of here comes through KNOWING them BOTH.  I know, your point was to emphasize and separate the ONLY true God and skip knowing them both, which that verse makes inseparable.  Jesus doesnt say THAT the Father is the only true God, He sais: that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ,(which here He is speaking in a third person) it clearly combines them into knowing BOTH. Knowing one, means knowing both. Does it say the ONE and only?

It is NOT knowing both the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ that the ONLY true God sent that I want emphasized Eve. I wanted to SHOW you that the ONLY true God is the Father. The "Jesus Christ whom the true God sent" is the SAME Jesus Christ who was talking to the Father and telling the Father, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God."

How the Son got the glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was is IRRELEVANT. That does NOT in any way make Jesus God 

 Irrelevant?  That Jesus had Glory with the Father before the world is meaningless?  I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another(Isa 42:8)

Is there any verse that says "God GAVE His glory to Jesus? Does John 17:5 say that?

Are you telling me that you are MORE authoritative than Jesus? Are you telling me that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is false? Show me where it CLEARLY says that they were always together as ONE God? And don't make apostle John say what he did not say, please! 

What Jesus said in John 17:3  i already stated above. Jesus, as the Son, in flesh, on earth is praying. He gives honor to His Father, by calling Him, of course the only true God and also mentions HIMSELF, by name.  Why does He use His own name as if He is a third party narrater?

See the problem with your thinking Eve? Just because Jesus did NOT specifically state that "the Father is the ONLY true God" and the verse doesn't say "one and only," you want me to believe like you do that the Father is NOT the ONLY true God. That's CONTRARY to what Jesus wants me to know about the Father!

show you where it clearly says that they were always together as one God? And i will not make John say anything but pure word.:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD.  HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth(Gen1:1)

They were CLEARLY together, from the beginning.

You may perhaps have another meaning for "CLEARLY"  because I don't see in these verses where Jesus and God were CLEARLY together as one God. John 1:1 does NOT say that the WORD that was God BEFORE Jesus was born was Jesus. And John 1:2-3 does NOT say that Jesus was in the beginning WITH God as God.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End", says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (rev1:8)  

I and My Father are one.(John 10:30)

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that i speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who DWELLS in Me does the work.(John 14:10) 

That was just in John alone.

 Apostle John is NOT saying that Jesus and God were always together as one God in these verses. As I said earlier, this is only in your imagination.

In Hebrews, the Father Himself calls Jesus God!

But to the Son He says:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;(Heb 1:8)

The Father calls the Son God. How many Gods are there? Have you lost your ability to count? 

For in Him dwells ALL THE FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.(Col.2:9)

That is pure word, no speculation.

What is this verse saying? Is Jesus the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit rolled into one? Tell me what this verse "CLEARLY" says Eve.

Titus sais: according to the commandment of God our Savior;(1:3) God our Savior?

Who is this verse referring to, God the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 1:4)?

Where does it say that it was Jesus whom God was talking to? Only in your head my friend. I suggest you consult a head doctor.

 

I didnt say God was talking to Jesus. Jesus IS the Word. I simply asked you, in Genesis, where it sais, Let US make man.....who is Us?

Be honest Eve, if you did NOT have Jesus in mind, why did you ask?

John the Baptist was a MAN sent by God (John 1:6). Was John with God also?

No, John had a biological father, Zacharias.(Luke1) Who by the way, was told by Gabriel that his son, John, 'will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God'.  

EveOfGrace [/B]

Okay then, show me the verse which says that Jesus was with God as God BEFORE he was born.

Ed

 

[lared]

Jesus wanted his disciples to be one just as he and his Father are one. Unity. Not the same person.

The churches have failed miserably. They are not united but even wound and kill each other during worldly governmental squabbles.

Those that worship the trinity god are not united. Even amongst single denominations, they are divided. They can not appreciate what it means to be one.

Sincerely, Lared

 

[edward]

Lared,

Answer my post "Is Jesus Good?"

Then you will know who Jesus really is! Jesus tells us directly who he is in Mark 10:18.

 

[EveOfGrace]

edpobre 

s there any verse that says "God GAVE His glory to Jesus? Does John 17:5 say that?

No, that is exactly my point. You said it was irrelevant HOW Jesus got the glory He had with the Father. He didnt GET glory, He had it, from the beginning since God does not give it away.

 I said: What Jesus said in John 17:3  i already stated above. Jesus, as the Son, in flesh, on earth is praying. He gives honor to His Father, by calling Him, of course the only true God and also mentions HIMSELF, by name.  Why does He use His own name as if He is a third party narrater?

then you said:

See the problem with your thinking Eve? Just because Jesus did NOT specifically state that "the Father is the ONLY true God" and the verse doesn't say "one and only," you want me to believe like you do that the Father is NOT the ONLY true God. That's CONTRARY to what Jesus wants me to know about the Father!

Can you just answer the question Ed? I did not say the Father is not the only true God.

 

John 1:1 does NOT say that the WORD that was God BEFORE Jesus was born was Jesus. And John 1:2-3 does NOT say that Jesus was in the beginning WITH God as God.

Lets take this verse by verse. John 1:1 Sais IN THE BEGINNING was the Word(capitalized)..was with God, and WAS GOD. How is it that when it sais the Word WAS GOD, not like God, not from God, not a plan of God, not any thing else except WAS God, that we cant believe what it sais?  Do we so far believe then that the Word spoken of here in Johns 1st chapter WAS God? good. Now look in verse 14. And the Word(same capitalization) BECAME flesh!! and DWELT among us, and we beheld His glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, FULL of grace and truth.

That verse 14 now just said this Word, that WAS God from the beginning which created all things, became flesh.  And, that once the Word became flesh, 'we beheld' HIS glory. This is the same glory that He had with the Father already spoken of above in my first quote.  The Word in flesh then is beheld as a HE. The Son. The Word that Was God, dwelling in flesh, becomes HE. The Son of God.

 again:

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that i speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who DWELLS in Me does the work.(John 14:10

The Father DWELLS in Him. Just like verse 14 above said, the Word Was God, and became flesh to DWELL among us.

For there are THREE that bear witness in Heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.1John 5:7.

Lets use your definition (which is not the original Greek definition)for LOGOS in the verse where it is referenced:

In the beginning was a word, uttered by a living voice that embodies a conception or idea, and the word uttered by a living voice that embodies a conception or idea was with God, and the word uttered by a living voice that embodies a conception or idea WAS God. Wow.

The Greek definition in the strongs concordance is LOGOS: something said(including the thought).

 

Be honest Eve, if you did NOT have Jesus in mind, why did you ask?

Honestly yes, i know the answer. But i am asking YOU for the third and final time.... when God said, Let Us make.... who is the Us?

EveOfGrace 

 

[EveOfGrace]

LOL, i am not all that great at using this posting and scrolling and quoting, so above when i addressed ed p, i used drmmjr's definition of logos.

No matter, it still is worth reading.

 

 

[EveOfGrace]

The Father calls the Son God. How many Gods are there? Have you lost your ability to count?

 There is but ONE God edp. Apparantly the author of Hebrews counts the same way I do, we just believe God when He sais there are 3 who bear witness in heaven.   

(God is being quoted here from Psalms 45) 

Heb.1:8 But to the Son He says: Your(Jesus) throne, O God, is forever and ever.

I didnt make that up edp, it is written. I have lost no ability to count. That was 2 expressions of One God.

If you back up a few verses, it shows the 2 again. vs 3...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. There you have it, there are 2, one on the right, one on the left, God as Father, and God as Son.  We all know that Holy Spirit makes 3. 

Maybe you are trying to make God like us, rather than God making us like Him.  We can only be in one form, in one place, at one time. 

 

Who is this verse referring to, God the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 1:4)?

I was quoting Titus 1:3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.

It refers to God, our Savior.  It doesnt say God the Father, or the Lord Jesus our Savior.  It sais what it sais. God our Savior.  God IS our Savior. God came to earth inside of flesh to save us. That being was Jesus. They are all ONe God. There is only One Savior. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all One God in 3 expressions of person.  They arent 3 objects that can be separated.  God is Spirit. 

EveOfGrace 

 

[dnich163]

I have to admit that I am completely at ease with the Trinity; that Jesus is God, that God is God and that the Holy Spirit is both.

I believe that the mainstream Christian churches all belive that Jesus and God the Father are one.

David

 

[undead1]

I defer to the opinion of the apostle.


Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

From the above verse, God = The Father



1 Cor 8;6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

From the above verse, God = The Father



Eph 3;6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

From the above verse, God = The Father



In the three verses above, God is defined as the Father, to the apparent exclusion of the "Lord Jesus Christ". What then can be said about the "Lord Jesus Christ"?


Phil 2;6 Who, being in the form of God...

John 1;1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Col 1;15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1;17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1;19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;



Here Jesus is also ""by nature" God, but only because of his association with, and relationship to, the Father.



What did Jesus say about his relationship to the Father?

John 10;29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all;

John 14;28 ....my Father is greater than I.


Conclusion: Jesus is subordinate to the Father. Jesus is not the Father, not any part of the Father, though the Father lives in him. The Father alone is "God"  by definition, Jesus is "God" because and only because the Father lives in him.

 

[EveOfGrace]

Undead that was the most sensible thing i have heard lately. I cannot disagree with all you posted.........

well accept for ONE thing:

 

Conclusion: Jesus is subordinate to the Father

The IS there should be WAS. Yes, Jesus, while in flesh was subordinate. Remember, what you posted yourself, in the beginning the Word WAS God...

He WAS God, before He became Jesus. He IS the Great I AM. That much has not changed. When He became flesh, as you said, He had the 'nature' of God, since prior to that He WAS God.  Ok, then He was made a man. God in flesh. Only BECAUSE of that was He subordinate.  But afterward, He again RETURNED, and is NOW, Lord. He is glorified NOW with the glory He HAD before. 

Father is God. Jesus is Lord. Holy Spirit is the power of both. So NOW you could say.......Lord God Almighty and mean all three in One. 

Where Jesus is , so is Father, so is Holy Spirit. Inseparable.

EveOfGrace  

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Subordination is not something ontological... so there is no problem even if in some sense Christ is subordinate now... it is a statement of position not ontology.

 

[OldShepherd]

12th February 2003 at 07:30 PM Dee Dee Warren said this in Post #176 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=648312#post648312)

Subordination is not something ontological... so there is no problem even if in some sense Christ is subordinate now... it is a statement of position not ontology.

Not disagreeing but some people may not understand this term.

• 
  Main Entry: on·to·log·i·cal
  Pronunciation: "än-t&l-'ä-ji-k&l
  Function: adjective
  Date: 1782
  1 : of or relating to ontology
  2 : relating to or based upon being or existence
  - on·to·log·i·cal·ly /-k(&-)lE/ adverb

 

[edpobre]

9th February 2003 at 10:34 PM undead said this in Post #174

In the three verses above, God is defined as the Father, to the apparent exclusion of the "Lord Jesus Christ". What then can be said about the "Lord Jesus Christ"?


Phil 2;6 Who, being in the form of God...

John 1;1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Col 1;15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1;17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1;19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;


Here Jesus is also ""by nature" God, but only because of his association with, and relationship to, the Father.

Jesus is NOT God "by nature" NOR "by ANY stretch of imagination!" By definition, God is the single English word that describes the SUPREME ruler of the universe who is the CREATOR of ALL THINGS. Jesus is NOT the CREATOR. Jesus is a CREATED human being.

But Jesus is "God-like" in the sense that he is the IMAGE of the   INVISIBLE God  whom God GAVE His Godly attributes such  as forgiveness of sins, justice, righteousness and holiness.

What did Jesus say about his relationship to the Father?
<I>
John 10;29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all;

John 14;28 ....my Father is greater than I.
</I>
Conclusion: Jesus is subordinate to the Father. Jesus is not the Father, not any part of the Father, though the Father lives in him.&nbsp;The Father alone is&nbsp;"God"&nbsp; by definition, Jesus is "God" <I>because and only because</I> the Father lives in him.

The Father ALONE is God. Therefore, your ASSUMPTION that Jesus is God because the Father lives in him is FALSE.

When did the Father START "living in Jesus?" Wasn't the Father "living in Jesus" when Jesus SAID"...but now you seek to kill ME, a MAN...." (John 8:40)? If Jesus was God then because the Father was "living in him" why did Jesus SAY he is a MAN?

Ed

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jesus the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In short GOD!!!

 

[EveOfGrace]

Jesus is NOT the CREATOR

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalties or powers.&nbsp; All things were created THROUGH Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him ALL things consist.&nbsp;Col.1:16-17

He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and WITHOUT Him, NOTHING was made. John 1:3

&nbsp;