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The temperance movement began in the early 19th century (around the 1820s). Before this, although there were pieces published against drunkenness and excess, total abstinence from alcohol (i.e. teetotalism) was very rarely advocated or practiced. There was also a concentration on hard spirits rather than on abstinence from alcohol and on moral reform rather than legal measures against alcohol.

An early temperance movement began during the American Revolution in Connecticut, Virginia and New York state, with farmers forming associations to ban whiskey distilling. The movement spread to eight states, advocating temperance rather than abstinence and taking positions on religious issues such as observance of the Sabbath.The American Temperance Society was formed in 1826, within 12 years claiming more than 8,000 local groups and over 1,250,000 members.

Temperance societies were being organized in England about the same time, many inspired by a Belfast professor of theology, and Presbyterian Church of Ireland Minister Rev. John Edgar, who poured his stock of whiskey out of his window in 1829. He mainly concentrated his fire on the elimination of spirits rather than wine and beer. On 14 August 1829 he wrote a letter in the Belfast Telegraph publicizing his views on temperance. He also formed the Ulster Temperance Movement with other Presbyterian clergy, initially enduring ridicule from members of his community.

The 1830s saw a tremendous growth in temperance groups, not just in England and the United States, but also in British colonies, especially New Zealand and Australia.

The above is from Wikipedia.

So, the whole business of temperance, and teetotalism, and abstinence is a very recent innovation that has nothing to do with Christianity. It was started by people that didn't want to see other people getting drunk. Note: this was not done by alcoholics to save themselves from the "terrors" of drink. It was done by people without the problem of alcoholism for the "sinners" in their midst.

Consuming alcohol to carry out religious duty (such as sanctifying the Sabbath with wine) is prescribed and regularly practiced within Judaism.

Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs, and Muslims do not drink at all. However, they are bound to hell unless they repent and turn to God. So not drinking doesn't have any point in salvation.

Let's get real, now. I agree that being bombed out of your skull is bad, wrong. Of the two times it happened to me, it was very unpleasant, especially the first time, waking up in a cold car with the door opened (my "friends" loaded me in my car, and left me--in the middle of January.) Not my friends now, obviously. That was many, many years ago. Both times I was falling down drunk, other people were trying (and succeeding) to get me drunk. However, I learned lessons from each time, and I have learned to avoid "friends" like that now. But my church is not a THOU SHALT NOT type of church. It is a church of mercy, a church of love.
However, my church has very specific rules about fasting, about when it is allowed to eat meat, drink, have marital relations, and so on.

Besides, as I am old and ill, I have enough things going on to humble my flesh.

Just because a particular movement existed at one time does prove or disprove the existence of what is taught in the Bible. I look at the Bible first and if history backs it up then that is good (But it is not necessary).


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Are you kidding? The wine was just that, wine. It was not a symbol. The wine in the Eucharist is the only Blood of Jesus, and that must be taken with caution:
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (I Cor 11:27-30 KJV)

Even then, that is not wine, it IS the Blood of Christ. It is not a symbol.

There is no clear description of a ceremony such thing as a Catholic Eucharist in the Bible. Oh, and yes. The wine was a symbol of Jesus's blood. He said so Himself at the Lord's supper. However, somehow you take it to mean that His words were literal, though.


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Philip_B

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There is no clear description of a ceremony such thing as a Catholic Eucharist in the Bible. Oh, and yes. The wine was a symbol of Jesus's blood. He said so Himself at the Lord's supper. However, somehow you take it to mean that His words were literal, though.


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The Euchsrist is catholic not Catholic. This thread is not about the most holy sacrament of the Altar. I respect and uphold you in you decision not to drink alcoholic liquids. However that is also not the subject of the thread either
 
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BukiRob

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The LXX shows where the Greek word oinos can mean grape juice/wine coming off the wine press and wine (grape juice) found in the cluster.

If you read the link I posted, nepho is not used figuratively in the verses in the NT. People use the "figurative argument" to get around it's literal meaning....not drink, physical abstinence.
As I said, I think the Septuagint is garbage. I posted Strongs link on the word, I dont need to go to your link
 
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Caminator

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OK fine, I DO have the wisdom of God, in that I TOO have been elected, baptized, saved, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, and filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. Okay? Do you understand me now?

NEVER tell me again that I do not have the wisdom of God. You said that only because I am a Catholic, and that shows your anti-Catholic prejudice, which is bigotry and hatred!
I went back and read my post, and I see where I went wrong. I'm sorry for what I said. While I was typing my response, I forgot who I was responding to, and I started addressing abstentionists in this thread instead. I started out responding to you, but then my mind wandered in the other direction. I was saying abstentionists do not have the wisdom of God, and I will not listen, and I mean that. The abstentionist/prohibitionist arguments in this thread have nullified whole sections of Scripture, and several statements of Jesus Himself. Such as, what did Jesus drink that John the Baptist not drink? And what could Paul have been referring to in Rom. 14?

I would love to see an expositional teaching on Rom. 14 from an abstentionist/prohibitionist. I imagine it would be quite confused.
 
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Caminator

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Something else I just remembered, if there was any thought in Scripture that Christians should not drink alcohol, the admonitions against drunkenness make no sense. Admonitions to not drink would be as clear as the admonitions to not get drunk.

You wouldn't need to do a Greek study on only one word and try to force your abstentionist on the text. The best defense of abstentionism in this thread - focusing on a word that supposedly means 'to not drink' - is so tenuous that it only deserves to be ignored.
 
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Monk Brendan

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The wine was a symbol of Jesus's blood. He said so Himself at the Lord's supper. However, somehow you take it to mean that His words were literal, though.

That was the first Eucharist. But the miracle at Cana had nothing to do with the Eucharist. It was a wedding!
 
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Monk Brendan

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And what could Paul have been referring to in Rom. 14?

Being charitable. If I am having lunch with a Jewish friend, I am not going to take him to a bacon house, or any other such non-Kosher place. I will take him to someplace where I will not offend his morals.

I like bacon, and I eat it once in a while, but not in front of a Jew. I am free to eat that meat, but he is not, so I will order something Kosher.

The same is true with an alcoholic. If I go to lunch with him, I won't take him to a bar. I'll go to someplace where they don't serve booze. Not because I need it, but I don't want to put a stumbling block in front of him.

Rom 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
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Monk Brendan

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There is no clear description of a ceremony such thing as a Catholic Eucharist in the Bible.

I don't mean to be dragging the thread off topic, but have you ever seen, in real life, a Catholic Mass? The central part of the Mass is when the priest takes bread and wine, and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, changes them into the Body and Blood of Jesus.

And the narrative of this event is: 1Cor 11:23-25 (KJV)
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Did Jesus say any of those things during the wedding feast at Cana? No, He did not. You can search the Scriptures high and low, and you will see that the only place he says anything like this is at the Last Supper narratives, and in John 6.
 
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Philip_B

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That was the first Eucharist. But the miracle at Cana had nothing to do with the Eucharist. It was a wedding!
In fairness to the text, whilst I would be reluctant to say that the miracle at Cana in Galilee (which some of my family think was some of his best work) may certainly be seen to have some Eucharistic overtones or subthemes. The obvious issue in the narrative is the obedience and ritual of the old covenant is swallowed up in the celebration and abundance of the new covenant, and that new covenant as you know is sealed in the blood of the lamb. It was a wedding, but interestingly the miracles is not about marriage, but about covenant, about obedience to Christ, about the intercession of Mary on our behalf, reminiscent of her enormous yes to the Angle in Luke 1 behold I am the handmaid of the Lord.

I don't disagree with you, but I think you are selling the first of the signs which He did in Cana of Galilee a touch short, and perhaps forgetting some of the great depth there is in 4G.

Pax Dominus Vobiscum.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I don't disagree with you, but I think you are selling the first of the signs which He did in Cana of Galilee a touch short, and perhaps forgetting some of the great depth there is in 4G.

Perhaps, I will consider it.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I don't mean to be dragging the thread off topic, but have you ever seen, in real life, a Catholic Mass?

Yes. I have seen the mass when I was a child against my own choosing. Needless to say I did not agree with it then and I do not agree with it now. In fact, I disagree with it even more so now because I have learned that Scripture does not even remotely teach such a thing.

Monk said:
The central part of the Mass is when the priest takes bread and wine, and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, changes them into the Body and Blood of Jesus.

I am aware of Catholic beliefs and this is not my first discussion involving Catholicism. There is no verse or passage in Scripture that says that the Transubstantiation takes place and there is no detailed descriptive verse or passage that describes this ceremony as depicted by Catholics. In other words, there is no place in the New Testament that describes a back and forth of saying certain words that are a part of a script like this,

Order of Mass: Basic Texts for the Roman Catholic Eucharist

Nor is there any mention in the Bible about how we have to actually believe the elements of the bread and wine actually change into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus. On the contrary, Jesus says, do this in REMEMBRANCE of me. You cannot be in remembrance of someone if they are in your presence. Also, eating blood is condemned in the New Testament (Acts 15:29).

Monk said:
And the narrative of this event is: 1Cor 11:23-25 (KJV)
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Jesus did not even die upon the cross yet when Jesus took the bread and said, "Eat, this is my body." For Jesus was still with them. Was their a piece of flesh missing in Jesus? Was their like a whole in His chest or a part of His neck that was missing? It just doesn't make any sense that the bread would actually change into His actual body.


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Monk Brendan

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Yes. I have seen the mass when I was a child against my own choosing. Needless to say I did not agree with it then and I do not agree with it now. In fact, I disagree with it even more so now because I have learned that Scripture does not even remotely teach such a thing.

How much of it did you understand as a child?

Where does Scripture NOT teach that the Mass is the ultimate form of worship?

Jesus did not even die upon the cross yet when Jesus took the bread and said, "Eat, this is my body." For Jesus was still with them. Was their a piece of flesh missing in Jesus? Was their like a whole in His chest or a part of His neck that was missing? It just doesn't make any sense that the bread would actually change into His actual body.

First of all my Non-denominational (which means a denomination of 1) friend, learn the use of the homonym, which is a word that sounds like another, but has a different meaning; such as there and their or hole and whole.

If you pay attention, you will see that this is the night He was betrayed. Not 24 hours later, He WAS on the Cross.

The wine was a symbol of Jesus's blood. He said so Himself at the Lord's supper. However, somehow you take it to mean that His words were literal, though.

Why is it that throughout ALL the Bible, Reformers say that all is exactly true, the literal Word of God, and yet, when you come to this point, it's a symbol? Show me where Jesus said that the Last Supper was symbolic. It ain't there. In other words, Jesus said, "this IS my body," and it becomes Jesus saying, this is NOT my body." Huh????
 
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Monk Brendan

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In fairness to the text, whilst I would be reluctant to say that the miracle at Cana in Galilee (which some of my family think was some of his best work) may certainly be seen to have some Eucharistic overtones or subthemes.

Forgive me, I was talking about the Last Supper as the first Eucharist. The wedding at Cana was just a wedding.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I am aware of Catholic beliefs and this is not my first discussion involving Catholicism. There is no verse or passage in Scripture that says that the Transubstantiation takes place and there is no detailed descriptive verse or passage that describes this ceremony as depicted by Catholics.

Did I say Transubstantiation? I did not. Transubstantiation is a theory of HOW the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine to the Body and Blood. Most Eastern Catholics and all Orthodox just say the change happens, we don't make theories of how it happens.

As far as the descriptive verse, 1Cor 11:23-25 shows it quite clearly. The vestments, altar, chalice, paten, etc have sprung up since then, so if THAT is what you are thinking of, you are wrong. As far as fancy vestments, altars, etc., Read Exodus 29.
 
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It seems to me that there was a time during which Jesus did drink alcohol. I have always heard and been taught that He didn't drink wine, but it seems He did. He would've had to drink alcohol at least once and the people saw Him and exaggerated it...

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” - Matt 11:18-19

Any thoughts?
I do not believe it to be all that important, just interesting. We must always do what the Lord tells us to do individually of course. If He says to not drink then don't drink.
No, he didn't people just saw him hanging out with drinkers and assumed he drank with them.

Ask Him yourself!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I don't

Did Jesus say any of those things during the wedding feast at Cana?

No, He did not. You can search the Scriptures high and low, and you will see that the only place he says anything like this is at the Last Supper narratives, and in John 6.

You cannot change the type of the wine being Christ's blood at a different point in time. If Christ's blood represents the wine at the last supper than the wine at the Wedding at Cana that He made also represents His blood. In fact, the containers Christ used to turn the water into wine were ceremonial washing containers that the Jews used. Christ was showing how that His blood was what was going to wash away sins now (and not the ways of the Old Testament). Granted, in the OT, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. It was only a temporary means of cleansing sin. The animal sacrifices were a shadow or type that pointed to Jesus Christ. But the point is that now Christ has arrived and His sinless blood can now take away our past sins for good (With the OT ways no longer being acceptable to God anymore). The Savior has come.


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How much of it did you understand as a child?

I think children have an instinct that is given to them of what they know to be good and right (if they are not influenced in the wrong way). Jesus said that you must be converted as a little child. That is what I was getting at. Children can be more easily influenced than say adults. So I would say that what I knew was enough. My growing up and learning to study God's Word and the real world around me helped to only confirm what I already knew as a child.

Monk said:
Where does Scripture NOT teach that the Mass is the ultimate form of worship?

First, we do not see the Catholic mass mentioned in Scripture at all. For example: A newspaper reporter reports the facts of a particular event. We do not see the event of the Catholic mass being recorded or described anywhere in Scripture in detail. For if this was to be the ultimate form of worship, why is it completely absent from Scripture? Second, Jesus condemns repetitous prayers. The Catholic mass is a script that people just recite with no real thought or meaning. Ask a person who just stepped out of the mass and ask them if what they can recall what they said to God during the mass and then ask them if they really meant those words from their own heart. Even the Lord's pray is an outline of how we are to pray and it is not a prayer whereby we just repeat those words mindlessly over and over. Matthew 25 in helping the poor means you are doing such a thing unto Jesus. For me, this is an ultimate form of worship. For if Jesus was here today, would you not want to minister unto Him and bring Him good gifts? Would you not want to just love Him naturally you would love your family? Do you participate in some strange ceremony to love your family? Do you bring out candles and incense and chant so as to express your love for your family? Did people do this with Jesus?

Monk said:
First of all my Non-denominational (which means a denomination of 1) friend, learn the use of the homonym, which is a word that sounds like another, but has a different meaning; such as there and their or hole and whole.

Not sure what you are talking about. Your post says you are a Melkite Catholic and not non-denominational. This means you associate with the Catholic church in some way.

Monk said:
If you pay attention, you will see that this is the night He was betrayed. Not 24 hours later, He WAS on the Cross.

Your playing word games. Jesus was not on the cross and He was not crucified yet when He had instituted the Lord's supper.

Monk said:
Why is it that throughout ALL the Bible, Reformers

Biblical Christians existed long before and even during the time (separate from) the Catholic and Protestant churches. I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God and that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God that we should follow. No other words should be added to it.

Monk said:
say that all is exactly true, the literal Word of God, and yet, when you come to this point, it's a symbol? Show me where Jesus said that the Last Supper was symbolic. It ain't there. In other words, Jesus said, "this IS my body," and it becomes Jesus saying, this is NOT my body." Huh????

Jesus also said, "I am the door." (John 10:9). But that does not mean He is a literal wooden door with hinges. The Catholic Reply: Well, ...*cough* see well that is just *cough* that particular instance. My reply: No. Jesus spoke in metaphors at various times.


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Did I say Transubstantiation? I did not. Transubstantiation is a theory of HOW the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine to the Body and Blood. Most Eastern Catholics and all Orthodox just say the change happens, we don't make theories of how it happens.

The point is that you believe the change happens which is what Transubstantiation is all about (Whether it is a technical theory or not). The Bible forbids the drinking of blood even in the New Testament (Acts 15:29).

Monk said:
As far as the descriptive verse, 1Cor 11:23-25 shows it quite clearly.

Christians met in homes every week to celebrate the Lord's supper. It was a simple meal in remembrance of what Jesus has done for us. They were at a dinner table and not in some church like building with a priest doing chants, etc.

Monk said:
The vestments, altar, chalice, paten, etc have sprung up since then, so if THAT is what you are thinking of, you are wrong. As far as fancy vestments, altars, etc., Read Exodus 29.

When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom showing us that the old priesthood (and it's ways) is no longer valid anymore. Jesus was of a different priesthood order. The Lord's supper that the Lord celebrated with his disciples is the example we are to follow today.


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Being charitable. If I am having lunch with a Jewish friend, I am not going to take him to a bacon house, or any other such non-Kosher place. I will take him to someplace where I will not offend his morals.

I like bacon, and I eat it once in a while, but not in front of a Jew. I am free to eat that meat, but he is not, so I will order something Kosher.

The same is true with an alcoholic. If I go to lunch with him, I won't take him to a bar. I'll go to someplace where they don't serve booze. Not because I need it, but I don't want to put a stumbling block in front of him.

Rom 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The problem is that most Jews do not struggle with eating bacon if he sees it. It is also something that is a part of the world around us. Bacon is everwhere. It's on billboard signs and T-shirts and can be smelled from your local restaurant. If your Jewish friend does not like bacon, he will obviously take steps to avoid being around it if it offends him to see others eating it.

As for alcohol: Well, that is a different story. An alcoholic can slip back into alcoholism if he is influenced by others and or seeing others drink. Imagine a Christian making another Christian to stumble back into alcoholism. Paul says do not let your good be evil spoken of. Meaning, a believer should not openly do something (like drinking) that is a common problem among many openly in public. Why? Because they can see you do it and stumble back into alcoholism (Which can cause their own death or the death of others around them).

Also, bacon does not destroy lives on the same level as say... "alcohol." More deaths are associated with this beverage than other causes of death. It is a huge problem here in the States. Yet, the drink is lifted up as if it is some kind of great blessing when it is actually a killer here in our country. It's why certain people here have acted emotionally instead of Scripturally on this topic. They are trying to defend a poison and or a life taking substance here in this country. Granted, we have a liberty in Christ, but we should not let our good be evil spoken of.

Personally, I have chosen to walk the higher road and abstain from alcohol so as to be an example to others. For the Scriptures say we are to deny ourselves, pick up our crosses and to follow Jesus.


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