Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[Mountainmanbob]

They won't be able to say anything

All mouths will be silenced

Understood by most who study the Bible.
Probably even little believers.
M-Bob

 

[surrender1]

What does ".therefore" mean?

What did HE mean when HE said therefore I will send you prophets?

When HE scolded those who didn't believe inp

Well, he sent them messengers like Stephen who they ended up killing. Still, Jesus said he’d hold them (the generation to whom he spoke) responsible, and he did. I already said all this.

29

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

And it did. "All these things" as Jesus said, came upon THAT generation. The generation to whom Jesus spoke.

Why does CHRIST send prophets?
Why does HE even send witnesses?

I already answered this. I have no idea why you keep asking these same questions. You don't know the answers? Or you think my answers will change?

Why even is the GOSPEL preached if by CHRIST coming into the world all are saved

All aren't saved right now. Many, many, many people are suffering without the hope of the message of God in their hearts.

Why would HE cry woe to any group of men

Because he was warning THAT group of men.

And why and how would HE avenge the deaths of every prophet?

God holds people responsible for their actions.

Did HE when HE said of that group whose fathers killed the prophets

Wherefore I send you prophets, was HE talking about that past generation or the future generation?

He was talking about THEM. The present day generation.

 

[miknik5]

my two cents....
He was talking about prophets sent to Israel. Both the prophets who had been slain, the Apostles who would be slain by the unbelieving Jews, such as James. So it is past and future but still it is That generation. Jewish leaders or any Jew are not going around killing prophets and haven't since That generation.
Do you think they will be in the future? I don't. I don't know of any scripture that says they will be.

I don't believe that there are any more prophets.
Not in the sense that there is more left to say. Not prophecying as in foretelling. But witnesses as in forth telling and holding to ONE TESTIMONY:

JESUS

CHRIST sent HIS DISCIPLES into the world to preach THE GOSPEL
And the TESTIMONY/TRUTH of JESUS from the beginning was hidden in GOD's WORD from the beginning

THE TESTIMONY of JESUS is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY

When all the prophets prophecied, they spoke by THE SPIRIT of CHRIST/SPIRIT Of GOD and their prophecying by GOD's SPIRIT ever and always spoke and pointed to CHRIST

 

[surrender1]

Can you have it both ways?

Can Hell and death be finally and ultimately cast into the Lake of fire and still have these whose names were not found who are said to be cast into the Lake of fire also outside the gates of JERUSALEM still hoping to enter in?

Remember, Jesus never speaks of "hell"; he speaks of Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is only ever used by Jesus (with the one exception by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment, and the nation to which Jesus spoke was about to endure a fiery judgment *in their lifetime* (i.e. the generation to whom Jesus spoke). So Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom knowing that the nation of Israel (those to whom he spoke) will recognize that he is warning them of God's impending divine judgment *on a nation*, Israel. The Valley of Hinnom (or Gehenna) is analogous to the lake of fire as *both* are referred to as the "second death." When the author of Revelation writes about the "lake of fire" (the "second death"), he is picking up on Isaiah's use of the term when he wrote of DEAD bodies of the wicked stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom.

Especially since THE DOOR prior to the resurrection of the dead to be judged was shut

That's not biblical.

 

[Christie insb]

The holy angel Lucifer has lost his existence, so the satan is not real.:

Do you have Scriptural support for this?

 

[miknik5]

Remember, Jesus never speaks of "hell"; he speaks of Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is only ever used by Jesus (with the one exception by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment, and the nation to which Jesus spoke was about to endure a fiery judgment *in their lifetime* (i.e. the generation to whom Jesus spoke). So Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom knowing that the nation of Israel (those to whom he spoke) will recognize that he is warning them of God's impending divine judgment *on a nation*, Israel. The Valley of Hinnom (or Gehenna) is analogous to the lake of fire as *both* are referred to as the "second death." When the author of Revelation writes about the "lake of fire" (the "second death"), he is picking up on Isaiah's use of the term when he wrote of DEAD bodies of the wicked stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom.

That's not biblical.

Tell that to the five foolish virgins

You might also want to review John 10 to see if it is biblical

 

[surrender1]

You mentioned "ancient Aramaic translations" which is easy to say, but did you read my post [post #226] this thread where I presented actual evidence from, and linked to, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud?

Here is part of the first paragraph which I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia in post #226, linked to above, actual evidence which can be verified.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

I would be interested in seeing the actual sources which you cite.

Not sure we're saying something so different on this part here. As I wrote in my original post on this, it's from "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward. You could do a search on Aramaic translation and Isaiah and second death. If you want the primary source, I'll have to go back and look it up. In any event, there is no strong biblical evidence for the idea of hell as an eternal torture chamber for those who disobey God.

edit to add: Okay, got it for you.
Targum Isaiah 65.5-6: 'Their retribution is in Gehenna where the fire burns all the day. See, it is written before me: I will not give them respite during (their) life, for theirs is the retribution of their sins and I will hand over their body to the second death.' (translation by Martin McNamara, Targum and Testament Revisited)

Hebrew Isaiah 66.24: 'And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.'

Targum Isaiah 66.24 is very close to the Hebrew, but instead of concluding with 'and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh', the Targum says 'and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna, until the just shall say of them, "we have seen enough"'.

 

[joinfree]

Do you have Scriptural support for this?

The scientific support isn't enough? To be in war against God is to be in war against own Father. It is denial of own Existence.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

On another planet???

Are you referring to Hebrews 8:1 "the main point is this"???

What is your comment referring to?

"Savior of the world IN the World" who are you quoting? you?

Only you are quoting that.

"... Right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" sounds about right.

BTW, not referring to Hebrews 8:1, I wasn't but you were.
Now I am.

Just trying to explicate what part of "Savior of the world" means. And what it partly means.
NOT TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, to being like some desolate planet, of course.

 

[miknik5]

The scientific support isn't enough? To be in war against God is to be in war against own Father. It is denial of own Existence.

There's two fathers/two kingdoms/two feasts being prepared

One father wants the children to know HIM

The other couldn't care less and in fact it is an advantage to him if the children aren't even aware that he does indeed exist

 

[surrender1]

Tell that to the five foolish virgins

Tell what to the "five foolish virgins"? That there is no torture chamber called hell? Since Gehenna had become a common symbol of divine judgment to the Jews, the "five foolish virgins" (unrepentant Israel) knew that when Jesus spoke of Gehenna he was referring to impending divine judgment. This parable is not about the resurrection and physical return of Christ. It's about the "coming of the Son of man" which refers to the coming judgment upon Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant system. That was swept away in AD 70. "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

You might also want to review John 10 to see if it is biblical

This says nothing about the door being shut after people die. On the contrary, Rev. 21 says the gates to the city of God are NEVER shut.

 

[miknik5]

Tell what to the "five foolish virgins"? That there is no torture chamber called hell? Since Gehenna had become a common symbol of divine judgment to the Jews, the "five foolish virgins" (unrepentant Israel) knew that when Jesus spoke of Gehenna he was referring to impending divine judgment. This parable is not about the resurrection and physical return of Christ. It's about the "coming of the Son of man" which refers to the coming judgment upon Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant system. That was swept away in AD 70. "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

This says nothing about the door being shut after people die. On the contrary, Rev. 21 says the gates to the city of God are NEVER shut.

I'm sorry

You have no control over THE DOOR

HE gets to decide to whom HE opens the DOOR and to whom
HE closes it

HE does however say HE stands at the DOOR and any man who hears HIS VOICE and opens THE DOOR, HE will come in and "eat/fellowship" with him and he with HIM


But HES's THE DOOR

 

[miknik5]

THE DOOR/THE GATE/THE WAY to enter as described in Luke 13:

22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and fromthe west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

 

[miknik5]

What happens to those who did not hear HIS VOICE who did not enter in before the judgement?

When they are raised, those who had no part in the first resurrection, what is their outcome?

 

[Floramay]

Predestination is a biblical doctrine. So does God in His sovereignty choose certain individuals to be saved?
And...with 4 new births in the world every second - one would assume a significant time need to elapse for each of these prospective believers to come to the Lord.
So, We are separated from God in this disordered world because we are all sinners.
Is the end game to wait out more atrocities, civil wars, massacres, Christian genocide, torture, killing, human rights abuses, slavery etc. for the "chosen" to be saved?

 

[miknik5]

Surrender1,

You'll have to explain your contradicting arguments because they make no sense o me

Is your argument that you don't. Rlidve there is a hell yet you believe there is a judgement?

Or is your argument that you don't believe there is a hell but outside jerusalems open gates is a refuse called Gehenna where the dead may still hope to enter in?

 

[miknik5]

Id like to discuss
2 Thessalonians 2

I'd also like to discuss the two witnesses, the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels with the everlasting GOSPEL

I'd like to know who these are witnessing to

And of whom they are testifying to

And why?
And why will some be deceived so that they may be condemned who did not have a love of the TRUTH

Will these witnesses stand in the judgement and will their testimony match yours?

 

[surrender1]

I'm sorry

You have no control over THE DOOR

HE gets to decide to whom HE opens the DOOR and to whom
HE closes it

HE does however say HE stands at the DOOR and any man who hears HIS VOICE and opens THE DOOR, HE will come in and "eat/fellowship" with him and he with HIM


But HES's THE DOOR

I never said or implied I have control over the door. John 10 says nothing about the door being shut after people die. On the contrary, Rev. 21 says the gates to the city of God are NEVER shut.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

While it is true that not everyone in the world will be saved, that is a very different claim from the headline of your thread, that Jesus did not come to save the world. 'Coming to save the world' and 'everyone being saved' are not functional equivalents.

'I brought everyone donuts' is not a functional equivalent to 'everyone in the room ate a donut.'
'The man came to free the oppressed people and take them to a new kingdom' is not a functional equivalent to 'everyone willingly left their chains and followed the new leader.'
'I came to give everyone in this room a free widget' is not a functional equivalent to 'everyone in the room took a widget home with them.'

Jesus did come to save the world:

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." Jn 3:17-18

Note that Jesus is not condemning or judging anyone here, but rather everyone already stands condemned unless they believe in His name.

"Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” Jn 12:44-50

Note that the context of 'the world' includes both those who believe in Jesus as well as those who hear His words but do not keep them. Jesus Himself says He came to save the world!

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
Note that Jesus' name has been given 'among men under heaven' so that man can be saved - but that salvation must come through Christ!

Just as Jesus came to save the world, but not everyone will go through Christ so as to obtain that salvation, so Jesus also came as a light to the world (Jn 1:4-9) but many love darkness more than the light and so will not come into it (Jn 3:19-20.)

 

[surrender1]

THE DOOR/THE GATE/THE WAY to enter as described in Luke 13:

22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and fromthe west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Jesus' warnings were to Israel and the coming judgment that took place in AD 70.