Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[sdowney717]

Both Paul and Peter says our being regenerated was according to His mercy towards us.
And this is not because of anything we have done, God simply foreknew us in a great love even before we existed. God says He choses to whom He will show mercy and compassion, so it is not according to the will of the man.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[dqhall]

Matthew 22:14 (WEB) For many are called, but few chosen.

Judas Iscariot was stealing from Jesus' funds.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man goes, even as it is written of him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born.
After Judas realized he had done evil, he committed suicide.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’

 

[Thedictator]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

Jesus did come to saved the whole world, but that does not mean the whole world will be saved. Only those who obey God's will shall be saved.

 

[ClementofA]

That would be the world of believers not everyone in the world.

I just don't think that Hitler will be there.

In Calvinism that would be those God forced to believe that will be saved. And those who He forced to remain in unbelief will He torment eternally. Nobody has any choice one way or the other. It's all about luck. Or fate.

In the Bible, OTOH, Jesus came to save sinners (1 Tim.1:15). It doesn't say "some" sinners or a "few" sinners.

 

[ClementofA]

Jacob I loved
Esaw I hated

This is while they were still in their mothers womb.

So in Calvinism God hates babies? For eternity while they burn in hell?

 

[hedrick]

In both John and Paul, the term "world" is used in two ways: God comes to save the world, but the world is also used to refer to those outside the Kingdom.

Can we reconcile these? I think so. In the Synoptics, I think it's pretty clear that the Kingdom is here only in a partial, preliminary form. It is the seed growing secretly. But in the future, God's rule (the meaning of kingdom) will take over everything. Indeed we pray for this in the Lord's prayer.

Paul sees Jesus as the second Adam, which will fully reverse the effects of the first Adam's fall.

If we can use this as a background for John, then saying that God came to redeem the whole world is completely consistent with the Synoptics and Paul. But at the moment that hasn't happened yet. So now we have a limited form of the Kingdom, and both John and Paul refer to what's outside as the "world." But we shouldn't forget the fact that Christ's real purpose is the redeem the whole world.

 

[prodromos]

Jacob I loved
Esaw I hated

This is while they were still in their mothers womb.

M-Bob

The English translation does not convey the sense of the Hebrew language. Consider the following example:

Gen 29:30-32
So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years.
When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb; but Rachel was barren. And Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, “Because the Lord has looked upon my affliction; surely now my husband will love me.”​

Hebrew is very black and white in its expressions so the context is very important for recognising the shades of grey in between. In the above we see that Jacob favoured Rachel over Leah, yet the next verse describes her as "hated". Thus we understand the passage you quoted as God favouring Jacob over Esau, not that He literally hated Esau.

 

[kiwimac]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

Well if you mean the world as in like the straight up Earth then no, we are even told love not the world and that the world will pass away.

But sometimes when people say save the world they mean offer salvation for those in the world so it depends on how it's used.

As in give everyone a change to be saved is what i'm saying.

 

[PeaceB]

Jacob I loved
Esaw I hated

This is while they were still in their mothers womb.

M-Bob

Does God love or hate you?

 

[Noscentia]

In Calvinism that would be those God forced to believe that will be saved. And those who He forced to remain in unbelief will He torment eternally. Nobody has any choice one way or the other. It's all about luck. Or fate.

In the Bible, OTOH, Jesus came to save sinners (1 Tim.1:15). It doesn't say "some" sinners or a "few" sinners.

You're talking about predestination versus double-predestination. There are those who believe that some are chosen by God for hell, but the fact is that all who are born of men are born deserving of hell and that is the expression of God's justice, a part of His nature, that all born with a sin-nature deserve damnation. We don't have to be forced to be sinful or unbelieving, rebellion is our natural state. His mercy nature is the reason He chooses to save some of those who are already damned by giving them saving faith. Make no mistake, that faith is a gift in spite of how you seem to view it. As Christ said, only those who believe in Him can be saved, and the only ones who come to Him are those brought to Him by the Father, the ones chosen before the foundation of the world.

If God saved everyone, He would not be just. If God saved no one, he would not be merciful. It is not our place to ask God why He made us this way, He is sovereign and we are merely vessels. He is the potter, we are the clay.

 

[sdowney717]

In Calvinism that would be those God forced to believe that will be saved. And those who He forced to remain in unbelief will He torment eternally. Nobody has any choice one way or the other. It's all about luck. Or fate.

In the Bible, OTOH, Jesus came to save sinners (1 Tim.1:15). It doesn't say "some" sinners or a "few" sinners.

Except it is not forced, it is taught... to those God has made born of God.
They are drawn, which mean compelled by an inward working power. Such is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life. It must be granted by God that you come to Christ, else you never will be born of God and believe in Christ.
Just seeing Christ do miracles is not making a person believe in Christ. As did the ancient Israelis in the exodus see all His miracles yet some did not believe. And God destroys all who do not believe in Him.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[Colter]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

Eventually the original gospel of the kingdom will subdue the whole world, we will enter the age of light and life.

 

[ClementofA]

You're talking about predestination versus double-predestination. There are those who believe that some are chosen by God for hell, but the fact is that all who are born of men are born deserving of hell and that is the expression of God's justice, a part of His nature, that all born with a sin-nature deserve damnation. We don't have to be forced to be sinful or unbelieving, rebellion is our natural state. His mercy nature is the reason He chooses to save some of those who are already damned by giving them saving faith. Make no mistake, that faith is a gift in spite of how you seem to view it. As Christ said, only those who believe in Him can be saved, and the only ones who come to Him are those brought to Him by the Father, the ones chosen before the foundation of the world.

If God saved everyone, He would not be just. If God saved no one, he would not be merciful. It is not our place to ask God why He made us this way, He is sovereign and we are merely vessels. He is the potter, we are the clay.

So in what you describe (i'll call it Calvinism):

1. Babies deserve to go to hell forever. There will be many millions of them there who died before or soon after being born.

2. Other people destined for hell have no choice in the matter. Hell was their destiny. Their fate. They were predestined to it by God.

What you didn't say is that God locked all in stubborness in order to show His mercy to all (Romans 11:32).

As to faith, i never said it was not a gift. Clearly it is (Eph.2:8-10).

Also all we have is your word as to the following statement, since no scripture was given:

"If God saved everyone, He would not be just."

 

[dhh712]

Also before Jesus had went to the cross. Not to mention, Jesus mentions in Luke that during the ministry of Elijah and Elisha, God sent those two men of God into Gentile lands to minister to Gentiles. So yes, God loves even those of the world.

It seems you don't understand the concept of God's eternal word. *Jesus* said that he hated Esau, before time began. Jesus is God's word. Esau, according to God's word, was not loved by Jesus and we can conjecture that he is not one of the elect according to the foreknowledge, meaning the design, of God. I'm pretty sure he won't be the only one... though I guess universalists maybe want at least that to be true--let's just say everyone except Esau, I guess, since God through his living word Jesus Christ stated that he was hated of God from the beginning of time. (Also, since God doesn't change, he either loves you or hates you. He doesn't change his mind later on, and he sure doesn't hate those he saves).

 

[ClementofA]

Except it is not forced, it is taught... to those God has made born of God.
They are drawn, which mean compelled by an inward working power. Such is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life. It must be granted by God that you come to Christ, else you never will be born of God and believe in Christ.
Just seeing Christ do miracles is not making a person believe in Christ. As did the ancient Israelis in the exodus see all His miracles yet some did not believe. And God destroys all who do not believe in Him.

Compelled means the same thing as forced.

In Calvinism God fates people into hell or heaven forever. It's all about luck, not a free choice. They burn forever because they were born in sin, something that they bear no responsibility for.

"Just seeing Christ do miracles is not making a person believe in Christ."

Sometimes it does, e.g. "doubting Thomas":

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

" And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day." (Matthew 11:23)

Sodom would have repented. If they had seen those miracles. Will they burn in hell forever because God didn't provide them the evidence that would have saved them?

""Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (v.21)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

It seems you don't understand the concept of God's eternal word. *Jesus* said that he hated Esau, before time began. Jesus is God's word. Esau, according to God's word, was not loved by Jesus and we can conjecture that he is not one of the elect according to the foreknowledge, meaning the design, of God. I'm pretty sure he won't be the only one... though I guess universalists maybe want at least that to be true--let's just say everyone except Esau, I guess, since God through his living word Jesus Christ stated that he was hated of God from the beginning of time. (Also, since God doesn't change, he either loves you or hates you. He doesn't change his mind later on, and he sure doesn't hate those he saves).

This is the exact same argument the Jews had at the beginning of the church. That God's salvation was only for "the elect"... which happened to be them. Guess what? They were wrong, just as those who hold the view of the OP are wrong.

by your account Jesus as God's word is a liar for God's Word says:

God loved THE WORLD

John 3:16

End of discussion

 

[Hank77]

1. Babies deserve to go to hell forever. There will be many millions of them there who died before or soon after being born.

Billions and billions of babies and children too young to understand.

Even Spurgeon, who was a devout Calvanist, said that he didn't believe that. What he said was that he didn't serve a God like Molech.

 

[dhh712]

So in what you describe (i'll call it Calvinism):

1. Babies deserve to go to hell forever. There will be many millions of them there who died before or soon after being born.

2. Other people destined for hell have no choice in the matter. Hell was their destiny. Their fate. They were predestined to it by God.

What you didn't say is that God locked all in stubborness in order to show His mercy to all (Romans 11:32).

As to faith, i never said it was not a gift. Clearly it is (Eph.2:8-10).

Also all we have is your word as to the following statement, since no scripture was given:

"If God saved everyone, He would not be just."

A few things that kind of misrepresent the truth: Yes, babies do deserve to go to hell because *everyone* deserves to go to hell. Everyone has a choice and without God's saving grace they choose rebellion against God. We are enslaved to the will of our sinful nature and we can't change it without the miracle of God's saving power.

I don't agree with that, that if God saved everyone he would not be just because the sins of the world have been imputed upon Christ. It's just that God's word is clear that all won't be saved so for some reason, in his eternal counsel he decreed that he will show his mercy to some but not others. That's something you have to take up with God, why he wants it that way. I don't question his word.

 

[Thedictator]

They are drawn, which mean compelled by an inward working power. Such is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life. It must be granted by God that you come to Christ, else you never will be born of God and believe in Christ.

This kind of false teaching come from Satan himself, it make God a God of Favoritism. Acts 10:34, Galatians 2:6 say's God does not show favoritism. 1 Timothy 2:4 say's that God wants all men (humans) to be saved. If it was up to God everyone would be saved, but we play a part in salvation the free will part we have to choose it. God made his choice, everyone, but not everyone choose God.