Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[Noscentia]

Changing the definitions of words will not work here. Calvinism changes God's nature to one the shows favoritism. Someone does not have to have a reason to show favoritism for it to be favoritism.

I don't think it's a problem with definitions, I just don't think you understand what favoritism means. Esau was hated literally before he had ever existed, he had done nothing to earn that position, it was merely because he was not chosen to receive saving faith the same as many others. There was nothing for God to favor. There was nothing inherently better or worse about Esau that separated him from the elect outside of God's choice, which, I reiterate, was not based on who Esau was or what he'd done since he had not even been born yet.

Help me understand then the Arminian God. If the decision of heaven or hell rests entirely on the choice of man, how can we say that God saves? How can we say that God wants to save everyone if it's entirely man's choice? If God wants to save someone and they reject Him then does that make God a failure? Can this God save anyone if no one wants to be saved? It seems to me that this God makes salvation possible, but He doesn't actually save anyone, as that can apparently only be done through each individual's will.

 

[ClementofA]

He did say he hated Esau.

"Have I hated - This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob. This is explained in Malachi 1:3," And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness;" compare Jeremiah 49:17-18; Ezekiel 35:6. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms "love" and "hatred" in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of the expressions of affection; compare Genesis 29:30-31; Proverbs 13:24, "He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes;" Matthew 6:24, "No man can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other," etc.; Luke 14:26, "if any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, etc." "

Romans 9:13 Commentaries: Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

 

[Thedictator]

That statement lacks either reasoning or scripture. I've seen people forsake scripture in favor of reasoning and get it all wrong. I've even seen them forsake reasoning in favor of scripture and get it wrong, too. You were enterprising and forsook them both with that statement. In keeping with the pattern that you've set, I'll add my own reaction:

Beer is an invention of man, a drink of Satan.

It's not theologically or logically any more sound, but the grammar is better.

There is no logic in Calvinism, It is the raving of a mad man named John Calvin. I follow no man, but only the Word of God.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

the "world" should be interpreted in light of revelation 5:9

 

[Hank77]

As Christ said, only those who believe in Him can be saved, and the only ones who come to Him are those brought to Him by the Father, the ones chosen before the foundation of the world.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[prodromos]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In this passage, I think "all" is an example of synecdoche, where the "whole" refers to the "part".

 

[Beaker]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

oh, He DID come to save "the world" BUT, not everyone in that same 'world' will accept Him. John 3:16, For God so loved"the world" that He gave................that 'whosoever' (not everyone in that 'world') believes in Him............"

 

[FrankDux]

That's the problem with cherry picking verses

The very next verse from the OP's, says

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

/end thread

have a nice day

 

[Rajni]

The elect refers to those who have a special salvation since they presently believe:

"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men—especially of those believing." (1 Timothy 4:10)

Yet God is the Saviour of all human beings who ever lived or died, even those not yet believing.

That includes Esau, Hitler, etc

Exactly. Notice, too, that 1 Timothy 4:10 says that He is the Savior of all, "especially"—not "exclusively"—of those who believe.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

What's interesting to note here is that the original word for "draw" in that verse, helkó, means "to drag".
Evidently, we have about as much choice in Jesus saving us as we had in Adam dooming us.

 

[REM]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

I agree but we don't know who belongs to the Lord so we share the Gospel. I still believe that with God all things are possible in the case of a loved one, a child etc. Love and prayer is amazing and Lord is full of Grace.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

Yes it is, especially since promoting universalism is against the rules in any forum other than "Controversial Theology"

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God's Elect is those who choose to be saved by obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everyone can become one of God's Elect.

How have you arrived at your understanding of election?

 

[Hank77]

In this passage, I think "all" is an example of synecdoche, where the "whole" refers to the "part".

I don't think it means 'all' people will be saved. I do think it means that all people will be drawn, but it will be up to them whether they will respond.
The only other way I think He could have meant it is 'all' meaning both Jew and Gentile.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[SnowyMacie]

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

The entire prayer in context...

"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

6 “I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; 8 for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. 15 I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.

20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Hank77]

“God, the offended God most high,
Ambassadors to rebels sends;
His messengers his place supply,
And Jesus begs us to be friends.
Us, in the stead of Christ, they pray,
Us, in the stead of Christ, entreat,
To cast our arms, our sins, away,
And find forgiveness at his feet.
Our God, in Christ, thine embassy
And proffer’d mercy we embrace;
And, gladly reconciled to thee,
Thy condescending mercy praise.
Poor debtors, by our Lord’s request
A full acquittance we receive;
And criminals, with pardon blest,
We, at our Judge’s instance, live.”

by the Rev. Charles Wesley

 

[Yarddog]

That would be the world of believers not everyone in the world.

I just don't think that Hitler will be there.

M-Bob

None of us deserve to get there, so I pray that God finds a way for all.

 

[Kate Pneuma]

God has been known to destroy parts of the Earth when the people there reject him and his teachings. I can't imagine he'd want the people of Noah's time or those in Sodom and Gamorrah in heaven. That being said, He is definitely a merciful God and does want those who love him in heaven. But he will also say "depart from me" and deny us if that is what we did to him.
After all if we're all going to heaven when we die what's the point of living?

Love all!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes it is, especially since promoting universalism is against the rules in any forum other than "Controversial Theology"

Is that not because there is no major Christian denomination representing universalism? I know that most universalists made the mistake of running off with the unitarians many years ago, but that does not invalidate universalism theologically. I set up damnationism, annihilationism and universalism as theories, and read through my Bible to see which one fit the data better. I found that universalism fit the data (the text) better, and by a very large margin. Yes, yes, I know all the arguments against universalism, and have debated them, but I don't want to do a rehash here.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

So in Calvinism God hates babies? For eternity while they burn in hell?

That I think is a terrible thing to say.
M-Bob

 

[ClementofA]

God has been known to destroy parts of the Earth when the people there reject him and his teachings. I can't imagine he'd want the people of Noah's time or those in Sodom and Gamorrah in heaven. That being said, He is definitely a merciful God and does want those who love him in heaven. But he will also say "depart from me" and deny us if that is what we did to him.

After all if we're all going to heaven when we die what's the point of living?

I imagine the Christian persecuting guy named Paul, the worst of sinners, is already in heaven, so saving Sodom should be a piece of cake for Almighty God. In fact God says they would have repented if they had seen Jesus' miracles. Their resurrection will be one they will see, amongst others.

Re your question, one point of living is that killing yourself would be a sin that could get you a seat in the lake of fire. I'd rather avoid that & go straight to heaven.