Jesus could do no deed of power there

[Mr. M]

Paul was referring to "another gospel" of the false brothers (Galatians 2:4), the Judaizers, who held that Gentile converts should be circumcised and obey the law of Moses (see Acts 15:5).

Paul anathematizes (curses, curem) all who preach such a "gospel." (Galatians 1:8-9)

I am aware of what Paul was talking about then.
Do you think that there is "another Gospel" today that people preach as a
"church growth strategy", for example, that is anathema?
The point being, what is preached as the Gospel is important "for it is the power of God to salvation".

 

[Clare73]

I know that He will not convict to repentance in the preaching of "another Gospel".
And yet, you still can't answer a simple question:

See post #399, it explains "another gospel" to which Paul was referring.

I don't think "conviction to repentance" was Paul's issue regarding "anther gospel."

 

[Clare73]

I am aware of what Paul was talking about then.
Do you think that there is "another Gospel" today that people preach as a
"church growth strategy", for example, that is anathema?
The point being, what is preached as the Gospel is important "for it is the power of God to salvation".

I'm really not up to speed on what is being preached today as a "church growth strategy," but I know that doesn't sound good.

However, I don't know that we have authority to anathematize anything.

 

[Hmm]

And where's the force when you are disposed to do so?

Well, according to you, He disposes some people - the Elect - to believe in Him and thus to be saved, while everyone else - the Reprobates He disposes not to believe in Him and so they go elsewhere.

The force involved is clear and I have to say if I so happened to be one of the Elect I would definitely feel forced if I had to spend eternity with such a god - I would much prefer the company downstairs.

Is that an assumption on your part, or do you find that in Scripture?

Free will and our required response to grace is everywhere in scripture. I could quote the entire Bible but there's probably a character limit.

 

[Clare73]

Well, according to you, He disposes some people - the Elect - to believe in Him and thus to be saved, while everyone else - the Reprobates He disposes not to believe in Him and so they go elsewhere.

Actually, all men are already disposed not to believe. It's the result of the nature we inherit from Adam.

The force involved is clear

Interesting. . .that you call "force" what the recipients who are actually subject to it deny.

Go figure. . .

and I have to say if I so happened to be one of the Elect I would definitely feel forced if I had to spend eternity with such a god - I would much prefer the company downstairs.

I'm thinking that can be arranged.

Free will and our required response to grace is everywhere in scripture. I could quote the entire Bible but there's probably a character limit.

Except where it isn't:

"Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34) Slaves aren't free. . .or

"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful mind cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8). . .or

"The Scripture declares (Psalms) the whole world is a prisoner of sin." (Galatians 3:22). . .or

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience." (Romans 11:32). . .or
.

 

[Hmm]

Actually, all men are already disposed not to believe. It's the result of the nature we inherit from Adam.

Except that the Elect are guaranteed to have their disposition changed at some point in their life so that they do believe. I'd be interested in any scriptural verses for that.

Interesting. . .that you call "force" what the recipients who are actually subject to it deny.

It happens. Gravity is a force that makes the Earth moving around the Sun although flat earthers people would deny that.

I'm thinking that can be arranged.

I'd be eternally grateful if you would, thanks

 

[fhansen]

No force is required when we are disposed to do so.

As I said, it's still a choice, to accept the gift- or not. And to continue making that same choice throughout our lives-or not. If we must be disposed to do something, or to change, then force is employed. And that's all contrary to the gospel in any case.

 

[Saint Steven]

I hope it doesn't mean anything horrendous in the States.

Best to avoid it, I would say. - lol

 

[Clare73]

Except that the Elect are guaranteed to have their disposition changed at some point in their life so that they do believe. I'd be interested in any scriptural verses for that.

It's not that there is a "disposition guarantee," it's that without it, you won't come. Anyone who is sincerely seeking God has had their disposition changed somewhere along the line, or they wouldn't be interested in him.

The new disposition is the result of being chosen. . .to be holy and blameless in his sight (Ephesians 1:4)--holiness is a work of God, not man. It requires a change of disposition.

Chosen, as was Jacob (Romans 9:10-13), as are the saints (2 Thessalonians 2:13), as are the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"Enabling' is a change of disposition--to come, to believe, rather than to turn away in unbelief.

Repentance is granted (2Timothy 2:25; Acts 11:18, 5:31).

Faith is a gift (Philippians 1:29; Acts 13:48, 18:27; 1 Peter 1:1; Romans 12:3).

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)
It's the Holy Spirit's decision.

For he chose us in him (Christ) before the creation of the world to be holy. . .he predestined us to be adopted as his sons. . .in accordance with his pleasure and will. . .in him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with his purpose and will" (Ephesiains 1:4-5, 11)

It happens. Gravity is a force that makes the Earth moving around the Sun although flat earthers people would deny that.

I'd be eternally grateful if you would, thanks

Oh, I have nothing to do with the arranging. I just happen to know the disposition of the one who does, and am quite comfortable with my estimation of that.

 

[Clare73]

As I said, it's still a choice, to accept the gift- or not. And to continue making that same choice throughout our lives-or not. If we must be disposed to do something, or to change, then force is employed. And that's all contrary to the gospel in any case.

Those who have been disagree with you

It's no more force than forming human beings with a disposition to ice cream.

"Force" is about restraint against our will.
There is no force of restraint against our will in the changing of our disposition by the Holy Spirit.
It is all sweet to our heart.

And why wouldn't it be, we were made for God, to know and love him.

 

[fhansen]

Those who have been disagree with you

It's no more force than forming human beings with a disposition to ice cream.

"Force" is about restraint against our will.
There is no force of restraint against our will in the changing of our disposition by the Holy Spirit.
It is all sweet to our heart.

And why wouldn't it be, we were made for God, to know and love him.

Adam was made to know and love God-yet he effectively dismissed Him. God could've just disposed Adam fully towards Himself-but that would be to go against Adam's will. God doesn't do that because the only way that love is real is when its a choice, when we've come to learn of its value the hard way, and so appreciate what Adam failed to appreciate as he preferred himself and cold pride over God instead. This is why we're here in this relatively godless and loveless word, to begin to develop a hunger and thirst for something more, for something missing, for God, for real, eternal truth and justice and love so that, when He comes calling by His revelation and grace, when He begins to draw and move us towards Himself, we will accept. But not necessarily, or not necessarily with endurance to the end. Those who have experienced this understand this very biblical truth, and the God who authored this plan for man.

God has been in the business of producing something during all the centuries of man's exile from Him, something truly grand and of great worth and that comes about only as the will of His creation comes into line with His own will. Had He simply wanted to stock heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate He would've done that at the beginning, precluding all the sin, evil, suffering, and death down through those centuries that results from man's disassociation from Him. Instead, that time has a purpose, to educate us, so that ultimately we'll finally and fully reverse Adam's decision within ourselves, with the help of grace, with baby steps at first as God takes us by the hand.

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

 

[Clare73]

Adam was made to know and love God-yet he effectively dismissed Him. God could've just disposed Adam fully towards Himself-but that would be to go against Adam's will.

You don't understand "disposition."

God doesn't do that because the only way that love is real is when its a choice, when we've come to learn of its value the hard way,

Is there anything in Scripture to support this line of reasoning?

and so appreciate what Adam failed to appreciate s he preferred himself and cold pride over God instead.

Or did he prefer Eve?

This is why we're here in this relatively Godless and loveless word, to develop a hunger and thirst for something more, for something missing, for God, for real, eternal love so that, when He comes calling by Huis revelation and grace, when he begins to draw and move us towards Himself, we will accept. But not necessarily, or not necessarily with endurance to the end. Those who have experienced this understand this very biblical truth, and the God who authored this plan for man.

Or, are we born in this loveless world because of Adam's sin and death which has marred God's creation?

 

[Mr. M]

I don't think "conviction to repentance" was Paul's issue regarding "anther gospel."

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.

The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

 

[Clare73]

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.

The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

"Another gospel" is not about personal conviction, it's about "another gospel" having no power to save.

There is no salvation in relying on your own works to save you, which "another gospel" of the false brothers, the Judaizers, was.

 

[Mr. M]

"Another gospel" is not about personal conviction, it's about "another gospel" having no power to save.

The letter is to churches in Galatia who were already saved, so having the power to save,
is not the issue.

You said "I don't think conviction to repentance was Paul's issue regarding "another Gospel",
and I am telling you that the point of the letter was addressing false teachers leading them
into keeping the Law and being circumcised to which he said:

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.

And I said

The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

then you said

I do not understand what your issue is.

It is not my issue but yours, in that you don't understand Paul's message, or what being convicted
by the Holy Spirit to the need to repent means. 70 X 7 only works if the Holy Spirit has not been
quenched.

 

[Clare73]

The letter is to churches in Galatia who were already saved, so having the power to save, is not the issue.

Indeed, it was. . .they were deserting God, the one who called them by a pure and unadulterated-by-works gospel, and were perverting the gospel of Christ (Gal 5:1-5).

The letter is to churches in Galatia who were already saved, so having the power to save,
is not the issue.

You said "I don't think conviction to repentance was Paul's issue regarding "another Gospel",
and I am telling you that the point of the letter was addressing false teachers leading them
into keeping the Law and being circumcised to which he said:
And I said
then you said
It is not my issue but yours, in that you don't understand Paul's message, or what being convicted
by the Holy Spirit to the need to repent means. 70 X 7 only works if the Holy Spirit has not beenquenched.
You said "I don't think conviction to repentance was Paul's issue regarding "another Gospel",
and I am telling you that the point of the letter was addressing false teachers leading them
into keeping the Law and being circumcised

And I said:
The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

"Christ having no effect" is the atoning sacrifice to save not being applied to them through faith in Christ's finished work, because their faith is in their own works to save, rather than Christ's work.

They "are trying to be justified by law" (v.4), which necessarily excludes them from grace, they "have fallen away from grace," for justification by law and justification by grace are necessarily mutually exclusive.

It's not about repentance and conviction, it's about choosing law over grace for justification (v.4), it's about "falling from grace" and back into law-keeping, it's about renouncing God's way of justification by Christ's finished work for you.

It's ANATHEMA! (1:9)

 

[Mr. M]

It's not about repentance and conviction, it's about choosing law over grace for justification (v.4), to "fall from grace" and back into law-keeping, renouncing God's way of justification by Christ's finished work for you.

The Law cannot convict a believer of the need to repent from an offense against another.
The Holy Spirit convicts for repentance.
Luke 17:
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if
he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day
returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Falling from Grace has everything to do with repentance. How many times have
you been convicted by the Lord, for say, the way you spoke to someone and you
felt the need to repent? If someone cannot receive correction by the Holy Spirit,
they are not a legitimate child of God. Hebrews 12:8

 

[Clare73]

The Law cannot convict a believer of the need to repent from an offense against another.
The Holy Spirit convicts for repentance.
Luke 17:
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if
he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day
returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Falling from Grace has everything to do with repentance. How many times have
you been convicted by the Lord, for say, the way you spoke to someone and you
felt the need to repent? If someone cannot receive correction by the Holy Spirit,
they are not a legitimate child of God. Hebrews 12:8

You don't think Paul's issue was what is so emphatically addressed in Gal 5:1-5, but is instead about conviction and repentance, nowhere mentioned in Galatians?

Why do you choose a totally unmentioned alternative rather than what is so clearly emphasized in 5:1-5?

 

[Mr. M]

You don't think Paul's issue was what is so emphatically addressed in Gal 5:1-5, but is instead about conviction and repentance, nowhere mentioned in Galatians?

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.

The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

The issue, as clearly stated, is "Christ having no effect unto you". I proposed;

The Holy Spirit cannot convict you for the need to repent under this condition of Christ
having become of no effect unto you, and that you have fallen from Grace.

"Another gospel" is not about personal conviction, it's about "another gospel" having no power to save.
There is no salvation in relying on your own works to save you, which "another gospel" of the false brothers, the Judaizers, was.

The Law cannot convict a believer of the need to repent from an offense against another.
The Holy Spirit convicts for repentance.
Luke 17:
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if
he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day
returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Falling from Grace has everything to do with repentance. How many times have
you been convicted by the Lord, for say, the way you spoke to someone and you
felt the need to repent? If someone cannot receive correction by the Holy Spirit,
they are not a legitimate child of God. Hebrews 12:8

 

[fhansen]

You don't understand "disposition."

In God's plans we can participate in accepting and retaining right disposition, or not.

Is there anything in Scripture to support this line of reasoning?

Yes, it's all throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation-I honestly don't know how people miss it. But it requires understanding as well, and the knowledge of God, all realized by grace. We're to choose good over evil; we're to obey the greatest commandments, thus fulfilling the rest. Love, a gift of grace to be accepted and exercised, is the very definition of good, or righteousness for man. If we find reason to deny this obligation to be personally righteous, we've just found reason to deny the gospel. With true understanding we agree with this statement of a 16th century believer, quoted and taught by the church of Christ:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

Or did he prefer Eve?

Both. But at the end of the day he chose to deny God's authority in any case, an act of pride in itself, of putting man’s opinion over God's, and man's will reigned in this world ever since.

Or, are we born in this loveless world because of Adam's sin and death which has marred God's creation?

Yes! And God uses this unfortunate circumstance to bring about an even greater good from it all at the end of the day. He wasn't surprised by Adam's act of disobedience, of course, but had His plan in place before Adam was even created. As I stated, this world has a purpose; it’s a prodigal’s pigsty for all practical purposes. And the prodigal had something to learn-so that he’d choose the better way.