Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

[BobRyan]

You posted

You have argued all over this forum the Christian is under the law. Such is contrary to Jn 15:10 where Jesus says to keep His (Jesus') commands opposed to those of His Father (10 Cs). The NC is based on "better promises," not law (10 Cs).

Your NC is an amended OC and not "NEW." Jeremiah says "cut a new stone" which means start from scratch. Heb 8:6 says based on "better promises," not law. Jeremiah also says "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake.." Verse 33 does not move the covenant they broke to anyone's heart. The covenant they broke was written in stone called the 10 Cs per Deut 4:13 -

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 5:3 makes it clear that covenant was made only with the COI.

Now my free will since you brought it up is to believe and accept Jn 1:17; 3:16; 5:24; 10:1-10; 15:10.

Need to quote JN 10:1-10 here -

1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

bugkiller

But it is the very start of your post where you make a key mistake.

You have argued all over this forum the Christian is under the law. Such is contrary to Jn 15:10 where Jesus says to keep His (Jesus') commands opposed to those of His Father (10 Cs).

That is the most extreme contradiction of the claims of Christ in the Gospel of John - that I have ever seen!!

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a great post summarizing the Bible statement on God's Ten Commandments to see if scripture declares war on them or affirms them.

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God ; Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of GodMark 7:6-13
NT ScriptureJames 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones?And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments

1. Paul teaches that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
3. Paul tellw gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
4. Paul askw that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
6. Paul tells gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
7 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Heb 8:7-11
8. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
(see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
9. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.


Paul does explain his own acceptance of God's Law this way - in Acts 21


Christian church leaders like James were addressing what they consider a false accusation being made against the Apostle Paul.


Acts 21
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

They suggest some solution to the problem with this conclusion

vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Paul relies on the gentiles reading the OT as 'scripture' so he does not need to repeat it in his every letter.

As a result -
1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment


==================================================

Acts 21 - to see just how far Paul was going to affirm the OT Law of God.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
.

 

[ewq1938]

Matt 19
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

As you see, Christ did not list the 4th commandment as needed to enter eternal life. This is an early hint that literally resting on a day of the week was not going to be critical. So, no surprise that Christianity in general doesn't rest on Saturdays but believes Christ fulfilled the Sabbath and became it being a spiritual rest...something we feel is far greater and beneficial to God's children.

I say this just to express the other's sides position not to argue, judge nor fight

I am friends with an SDA pastor and occasionally attend a local SDA church because I like their bible study approach...just don't agree on all things.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Are you still at this lol. You got great staying power I must admit!

You know you've got as much chance of changing anyone's mind as they have got of changing yours!

I know one chap who used to argue this on a Saturday so he could pass his Sabbath day resting and contemplating on spiritual things. As soon as the sun went down, he bid us all good day

 

[BobRyan]

As you see, Christ did not list the 4th commandment as needed to enter eternal life.

Nor did He mention not taking God's name in vain.

Are you suggesting that this means taking God's name in vain is no longer a sin??

If that is your "proof" for such a thing - then at that point ... I find your logic "illusive".

 

[BobRyan]

As the OP reminds us - I prefer the actual word of God - over stories and man-made traditions...

Are you still at this lol. You got great staying power I must admit!

you are free to oppose it. You have free will.

 

[ewq1938]

Nor did He mention not taking God's name in vain.

"Honour thy father" covers that.

 

[ewq1938]

As the OP reminds us - I prefer the actual word of God - over stories and man-made traditions...

Except the new covenant does not command resting on Saturdays so you can't claim it's the word of God from the new covenant. So what's left is "stories and man-made traditions"

Even Christ worked on the Sabbath and so did his disciples and so did the Father!

Joh 5:16 And for this reason the Jews were turned against Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working.

I prefer the actual word of God as seen above

 

[BobRyan]

Except the new covenant does not command resting on Saturdays

On the contrary the New Covenant affirms the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah - in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

If one is to imagine that the LAW of the New Covenant did not include "Do not take God's name in vain" they - could do so... but it would be a mistake.

It is the SAME LAW as Paul points out in Ephesians 6:2 in both OC and NC.

Is it any wonder then that Jesus does not support the notion of "war" between God's Commandments and the Word of Jesus?

John 14
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

 

[BobRyan]

"Honour thy father" covers that.

honor thy father - covers all the Ten Commandments

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[ewq1938]

On the contrary the New Covenant affirms the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah - in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

I see nothing in your entire post that shows resting on a Saturday is commanded in the new covenant nor do I see you dealing with the fact that Christ, the disciples and God the Father worked on saturdays. Do you have anything pertaining to that?

 

[ewq1938]

honor thy father - covers all the Ten Commandments

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

It does not cover the 4th commandment which is why it's never commanded in any of the NT and that verse is speaking about the new covenant commandments not the OT commandments. The 4th is not part of the NT and that's why the majority of Christians since the start of Christianity up until this current day do not keep it. We have a better and fulfilled Sabbath in Christ himself.

 

[BobRyan]

I see nothing in your entire post that shows resting on a Saturday is commanded in the new covenant

This thread is about Christ's claim that He was not opposing His Father's commandments, His Father's Word

As for the NEW Covenant...let's start by actually quoting it.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Now then - exegesis states that we allow Jeremiah to reference the LAW of God known to him at the time he is writing - to define his own term in his own text. So then at the time of the writing of Jeremiah 31 was there anything to tell us that they had deleted the Ten Commandments from the LAW of God -- or at least downsized the TEN - to "just nine"??

 

[ewq1938]

This thread is about Christ's claim that He was not opposing His Father's commandments.

As for the NEW Covenant...let's start by actually quoting it.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Now then - exegesis states that we allow Jeremiah to reference the LAW of God known to him at the time he is writing - to define his own term in his own text.

And the law mentioned is not the old law but the new law of the new covenant.

 

[stuart lawrence]

As the OP reminds us - I prefer the actual word of God - over stories and man-made traditions...



you are free to oppose it. You have free will.

I already showed you. If the fourth commandment, as written is written on the mind and placed on the heart of believers, they MUST be conscious they commit sin by failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath.
Now I will credit you with actually discerning that is true.
However, due to your beliefs, you didn't accept it, reasoning that Catholics pray to the dead so are in violation of the first commandment.
That doesn't hold up. Catholics dont believe they are contacting the dead, but the alive in heaven and asking them to intercede for them. In their view they are in no way being unloving to God.
If a law was written on their mind and placed on their heart forbidding them to contact people they believe are in heaven, That would be different.
Its a pity you know, because I really enjoyed reading your posts in the thread about the resurrection. But I do understand, for you thus Is the defining subject to be discussed.

All i will say is, in my own life i have been burdened much at times concerning sin, but never I respect of failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

I already showed you. If the fourth commandment, as written is written on the mind and placed on the heart of believers, they MUST be conscious they commit sin

I already showed you John 16 - two key statements.

1. vs 1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

2. vs 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Then of course James 4
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

All of which argue against the "I always know when I am wrong" type of solution to that problem.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I already showed you John 16 - two key statements.

1. vs 1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

2. vs 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Then of course James 4
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

All of which argue against the "I always know when I am wrong" type of solution to that problem.

But we agree, the law on stone God desires us to keep is written on our minds and placed on our hearts.
Many things christians take different views on. I would suggest not everything I written on the mind and placed on the heart. But what is specifically placed there, I believe believers would know

 

[BobRyan]

But we agree, the law on stone God desires us to keep is written on our minds and placed on our hearts.

Under the New Covenant...

But as Christ points out.

John 16 - two key statements.

1. vs 1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

2. vs 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Then of course James 4
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 2
17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

They did not view themselves as law-breakers - yet... they were.



All of which argue against the "I always know when I am wrong" type of solution to that problem.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Under the New Covenant...

But as Christ points out.

John 16 - two key statements.

1. vs 1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

2. vs 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Then of course James 4
16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 2
17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

They did not view themselves as law-breakers - yet... they were.



All of which argue against the "I always know when I am wrong" type of solution to that problem.

Who would make the disciples outcasts I the synagogues?
Non believers, those who do not have the law within them

Why could Jesus not teach the disciples all he wanted to? For the holy spirit had not yet been sent. Now he has, and he has written the law on stone believers are required to keep in their minds and placed It on their hearts.
As you would agree, all believers agree they commit sin if they break nine of those commandments as written, for that law is within them

 

[BobRyan]

Who would make the disciples outcasts I the synagogues?

People who had the true Bible, worshiped the true God - but who were blindly convinced by their priests to reject God's prophets/evangelists/apostles.,

People like Saul who later became Paul and said that God forgave him because he acted out of ignorance -- as I already pointed out in my response to you on the thread about liking Seventh-day Adventists.

Phil 3
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

1 Tim 1
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief