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Jehova Witness and Church of Scientology

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by gwyyn, Jun 3, 2002.

  1. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    I was just wondering about these *denominations*? Are they true to the teachings of Christ and the Bible? The denominations I'm asking about are Jehovah Witness and Church of Scientology.
     
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  2. The Theory

    The Theory Bagpipes well could he blow.

    +73
    Christian
    Single
    I thought that scientology was started by L.Ron Hubbard, and isn't based at all on Christianity. (nor does it claim to be).

    ::Mostly Harmless::
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Jehovah's Witness believe that Christ was a created being who came into the world to be an "everyman" who would live and die to prove to men that they could live perfectly. They believe that if they live really moral lives and work hard enough for the "church," they will reign with God in heaven. They believe that the Holy Spirit is nothing but a spiritual wind that blows across the earth to let people God is still alive.

    Scientology was invented by L Ron Hubbard as a bar bet, in which he bet his buddies that he could create a religion that people would follow. He made it up to be exactly opposite Christ's teachings. Where Christ would have taught loving your enemies, they teach hating your enemies and hurting them. Where Christ would have taught turning the other cheek, they teach throwing the first punch. Where Christ taught sacrificial living, they teach oppulent, lush living.

    Neither has anything to do with the REAL Christ of the Bible.

    Jehovah's Witnesses went so far as to make up their own bible, called "New World Translation," that took out all the verses and chapters they don't agree with.
     
  4. The Theory

    The Theory Bagpipes well could he blow.

    +73
    Christian
    Single
    Doesn't a lot of celebrities "follow" scientology?

    peace.
     
  5. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    yea i know that movie battlefield earth was supposed to have a scientology theme, and john travolta is into this
    'religion'. I also know that there are people in my area who are into this, cause they just got through building a new "church" in amarillo tx
     
  6. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Yes, a lot of celebrities are into scientology. Tom Cruise, Michael Jackson, Priscilla Presley, etc. They say it appeals to them because they get to determine their own destiny then make it happen without submitting to others or being nice. It allows them to be totally self-centered and to believe that they ARE really better than other humans.
     
  7. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Michael Jackson is a devout Jehovah's Witness..not a scientologist.
     
  8. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    gwyyn,

    No, these are not true teachings about Jesus Christ. One is a gnostic version, the other completely denies the divinity of Jesus Christ. In the apostle's day, these religions would be considered heresy, and contradictory to the scriptures.
     
  9. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Oh, I know this because I am a Jackson Family fan and have read lots of stuff about the whole family and they have always been JW's.
     
  10. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Michael Jackson was kicked out of the JW's more than 15 years ago, because he was a bad example, so they said. He took up scientology to fill the religious gap in his life.
     
  11. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Michael Jackson is still a JW..he was reinstituted, You can go back to being a JW if you decide to live in accordance to what they believe is God's way..His sister Latoya was kicked out because of her stint in Playboy and never reinstated..
     
  12. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

    632
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    so what about menninites(sp) and the amish? we have menninites in this area, they are nice hardworking people? But's all I know, have never really talked to one.
     
  13. lared

    lared Active Member

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    In most ways Jehovah's Witnesses are like everyone else. They have their problems-economic, physical, emotional. They make mistakes at times, for they are not perfect, inspired, or infallible. But they try to learn from their experiences and diligently study the Bible to make needed corrections. They have made a dedication to God to do his will, and they apply themselves to fulfill this dedication. In all their activities they seek guidance from God's Word and his holy spirit.

    It is of vital importance to them that their beliefs be based on the Bible and not on mere human speculations or religious creeds. They feel as did the apostle Paul when he expressed himself under inspiration: "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar." (Romans 3:4, New World Translation) When it comes to teachings offered as Biblical truth, they strongly endorse the course followed by the Beroeans when they heard the apostle Paul preach: "They received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11) Jehovah's Witnesses believe that all religious teachings should be subjected to this test of agreement with the Scriptures, whether the teaching is offered by them or by someone else. They invite you-urge you-to do this in your discussions with them.

    From this it is apparent that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the Bible as the Word of God. They consider its 66 books to be inspired and historically accurate. What is commonly called the New Testament they refer to as the Christian Greek Scriptures, and the Old Testament they call the Hebrew Scriptures. They rely on both the Greek and the Hebrew Scriptures and take them literally except where the expressions or settings obviously indicate that they are figurative or symbolic. They understand that many of the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled, others are in the course of fulfillment, and still others await fulfillment.
     
  14. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

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    The most recent statement is not true. Read "Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave" avaiable at your local Christian bookstore for the Truth about the organization.

    JW's

    1. Deny that Jesus is God.
    2. Have rewritten their "translation" of the Bible, removing any verses which disagree with their theology.
    ex: John 1:1 "the Word was "a" God". They claim this is the correct translation which proves Jesus is not one with the Father. Anyone who studies Greek knows that there is no definite article ( ie "a") in Greek, and so for them to make such assertions to support their lies is dishonest, false, and wicked.
    3. While individual JW's may be well-meaning, hardworking people, their organization uses the Word of God, grossly taken out of context, to mislead the masses and profit financially.
    4. They do not teach a personal relationship with God because God is unapproachable, and one needs a mediator, Christ through the Watchtower Society alone .
    4. Read the book, or any other at your local Christian book store.

    As to menninites and amish...I'm afraid I don't know much. The only amish person I've talked to told me that Jesus is not God, and that's ok with most amish people. That is enough to make me question their doctrine (which Paul instructs us to keep sound!)

    Just because people seem hard-working and good to our eyes means nothing. All men are evil and have forsaken God (Romans 3). It is only Christ who can save, and He needs no organization to do it for Him. Being a good person is worthless without the Lord to free your soul. :bow:

    He is my King, He is my everything! I love Him and He loves me. We'll live together, just wait and see! :D

    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  15. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok othniel, i get your point. But I don't think it's right to consider "everyone" evil because we do not know of their salvation. I meant by saying my statement about the menninites is cause from what I have observed of them they are very family oriented people who stick to themselves and are hard workers. I don't know much about them cause they do not come a knockin on my door on Saturday mornings like the JW. So can someone who "knows" about their beliefs please answer my question.
     
  16. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    +261
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    A great site that is very good and not being unfairly biased but gives the facts straight from a Christian perspective should be able to help you out.

    Jehovah Witnesses

    http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

    P.S. Please tell me if I'm breaking any rules for this forum. I notice that others seem to be allowed to enter input as long as it's approved by Josephus. So please PM me if I'm out of place! Just thought this info would be of great benfit to many reading this.
     
  17. lared

    lared Active Member

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    In response to Othniel:
    1.Of course Jesus is not God almighty. Jehovah is. Jesus is God's son, our redeemer, who died for us.
    2.Many J.W.s do not use the New World Translation as it is not available in their native tongue and yet they are still part of a united brotherhood. We are happy to use any Bible but prefer one that has restored God's name, Jehovah, to its proper place rather then removing it and substituting either the title LORD or GOD in all capital letters. The New World Translation has only been around for about 40 years and yet modern day Witnesses have been around for more then 120 years.
    You answered correctly regarding John 1:1. There were no definite articles in Greek, so today's English translators must insert them where necessary. (For example: the word 'you' in English can be either singular or plural. A Spanish translator must decide upon the context whether to make it Usted (you-singular) or Ustedes (plural). The context of John 1 definitely indicates two individuals.
    3. J.W.s do not mislead or profit. They have no paid clergy class and do not even take up collections or ask for money during their meetings. They give of their time and energy freely to try to be helpful in a spiritual way. There is no monetary reward at all.
    4.Of course they teach a personal relationship with God. How many close friends do you have in which you do not know their names? Right away, Jehovah's Witnesses teach people God's name and its significance.
    5.Why should one have to purchase a book that is slanted. Would you encourage others to purchase a book written by your ex-spouse who exposes all of your imperfections.
    Finally---the definition of a Christian is one who follows and imitates Jesus. In fact we are told to do so.
    Question----Who did Jesus pray to when on earth? a)his heavenly Father b)the holy trinity or c) himself?
    J.W.'s imitate Jesus and do as he did. We pray to our heavenly Father.
    If we are to worship a mysterious trinity or Jesus himself----then we certainly are not Christian but rather making up our own rules and religion.
    Traditions die hard as Jesus exposed regarding the scribes and pharisees.
     
  18. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
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  19. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

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    Jesus is one with God the Father, one with God Almighty. Aside from John 1:1 there are countless places in Scripture which identify their union...including Christ's own words: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30, 17:10-11)

    When asked to show the Father to the disciples, Christ reponds: "Do you not know me?" (John 14:7-10)

    The wise men, the disciples, Thomas, and others worshiped Him and the Bible commands to us worship none but God (Luke 24:51 and Rev. 22:9)

    He was in "very nature God." (Philipians 2:6)

    He had "all the fullness of Deity" in Him. (Colossians 1:19, 2:9)

    Hebrews 1:9 calls both Him, and God, God, in the same sentence!

    The Old Testament also testifies:
    ""The days are coming," declares the Lord , "when I will raise up to David a righteous branch...This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness." (Jer. 23:5-6)

    "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given...and he will be called Wondeful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

    "I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

    The Bible makes it obvious Christ is God. The Bible also makes it clear the Father and Christ have different roles within the Godhead, and Christ is submissive to His Father, but that hardly makes Him unequal. It is a great mystery (as Paul says in Ephesians). But even so, it is the core of the Christian faith, and to believe otherwise, or to listen to those who teach otherwise is to put one's eternal soul in great jeopardy.

    Yes...never with the same doctrine. Most of the earliest writings are now out of print for this reason.

    To do so and change the meaning of Scripture, creating a doctrine which denies the Truth is no less than manipulative and evil. I am not calling you evil, I am calling the WT evil.

    No, it does not "definitely" indicate that at all. It is your opinion, it is what you've been taught...but it is hardly in line with the above quoted passagesnor the following:

    "This is what the Lord says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans- they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god .' "
    (Whole Chapter: Isaiah 45 In context: Isaiah 45:13-15)

    Daniel 3:29
    "Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way."

    JW's may not, but their organization does. What is the one thing a JW must do? Sell books. That money goes somewhere...you can say to furthering the cause...but that's just selling more books, like any other profit-seeking company.

    Explain to me your relationship with God. How often have you spoken with Him today? What have you said? What has He said? How has He led you? How has He tested you?

    Not if they were true...but of course, I'd be afraid to face that Truth and do everything I could to cover it up.

    A Christian has nothing to fear from imperfections.

    That is not true. A Christian is one who is eteranlly saved by Jesus. Out of faith in Our Lord, what you have stated will certainly occur. Of course, if Spirit of God does not live in us, we have no hope of ever succeeding.

    Meanwhile, I know Buddhists who follow and imitate Jesus.

    So, what exactly does Isaiah 9:6 mean? Of course Christ prayed to His Father. That does not make Him not God. That makes Him a different person than the Father, but hardly not God.

    Strange how the first believers did worship Christ, isn't it. (On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.
    (Whole Chapter: Matthew 2 In context: Matthew 2:10-12)


    Matthew 14:33
    Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
    (Whole Chapter: Matthew 14 In context: Matthew 14:32-34)


    Matthew 28:9
    Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
    (Whole Chapter: Matthew 28 In context: Matthew 28:8-10)


    Matthew 28:17
    When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
    (Whole Chapter: Matthew 28 In context: Matthew 28:16-18)


    Luke 24:52
    Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.
    (Whole Chapter: Luke 24 In context: Luke 24:51-53)


    John 9:38
    Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
    (Whole Chapter: John 9 In context: John 9:37-39)
    )

    And you prove it by your ignorance of the obvious Truth's in Scripture, based not on other Scripture, but on the teaching of the WT...which, is an idolatrous organization.


    :cry: This is so very sad. I apologize to anyone who this hurts, but I must speak the Truth.

    Jerimiah 20:9
    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  20. lared

    lared Active Member

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    Everything you have said is so twisted, it is not worth a response. And your grand finale is very condescending. I am glad to be part of an organization which is no part of the world, unselfish, and busy declaring the good news of the kingdom.
    To anyone else listening, if you have specific questions, perhaps issues that Othniel has brought up, they can be answered scripturally by any Witness that you may meet up with.
    I do not wish to continue a conversation with him.
     
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