Jehova Witness and Church of Scientology

LightBearer

Veteran
Aug 9, 2002
1,916
48
Visit site
✟19,072.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
I appologise for giving the impression I was adding to the verse.  It was never my intention to do so because you'll notive I never quoted the scripture, I only paraphrased it.

John’s baptism was due to be replaced by the baptism commanded by Jesus: “Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Mt 28:19) This was the only water baptism having God’s approval from Pentecost, 33 C.E., forward. Some years after 33 C.E., Apollos, a zealous man, was teaching correctly about Jesus, but he had an understanding of only John’s baptism. On this matter he had to be corrected, as did the disciples whom Paul met at Ephesus. These men in Ephesus had undergone John’s baptism, but evidently after its valid performance had ended, since Paul’s visit to Ephesus was about 20 years after the termination of the Law covenant. They were then baptized correctly in the name of Jesus and received holy spirit.—Ac 18:24-26; 19:1-7.

That Christian baptism required an understanding of God’s Word, and an intelligent decision to present oneself to do the revealed will of God was evident when, at Pentecost, 33 C.E., the Jews and proselytes there assembled, who already had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, heard Peter speak about Jesus the Messiah, with the result that 3,000 “embraced his word heartily” and “were baptized.” (Ac 2:41; 3:19–4:4; 10:34-38) Those in Samaria first believed Philip’s preaching of the good news, and then they were baptized. (Ac 8:12) The Ethiopian eunuch, a devout Jewish proselyte who, as such, also had knowledge of God and the Hebrew Scriptures, heard first the explanation of the fulfillment of these scriptures in Christ, accepted it, and then wanted to be baptized. (Ac 8:34-36) Peter explained to Cornelius that “the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable” (Ac 10:35) and that everyone putting faith in Jesus Christ gets forgiveness of sins through his name. (Ac 10:43; 11:18) All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ command to “make disciples . . . teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” Those who accept the teaching and who become disciples properly get baptized.—Mt 28:19, 20; Ac 1:8.

The case is very different for individuals without any knowledge at all, they would have to get up to speed as it were.  They would need enough knowledge to make a qualified and intelligent decision before they could consider baptism.  This could take many weeks or even months of teaching to get to know God well enough to want to dedicate their life to him.  After all, you wouldn't dedicate your life to a stranger. Baptism is a serious step it sybolises a lifelong dedication do do God's will.  It should'nt be entered upon lightly, it should be a very considered and prayerful decision.
 
Upvote 0

cougan

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2002
766
7
51
Visit site
✟8,856.00
Faith
Christian
Lb you have not shown here that one is saved before baptism. You are trying to claim that someone needs to know a lot before they are baptized. This simply is not true. The plan of salvation is the milk of the word. A person can hear the word of God for the first time and know what they need to know in order to be saved and to know what it is that they are doing. If you teach someone and they belive the good news about Jesus and they ask you what they need to do to be saved. You can tell them that they need to repent and confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin. You of course would tell them that they will have to live their rest of their lives as faithful christians and need to study Gods word to see how they are to live their lifes as a christian. This is all a person needs to know to put christ on in baptism. Some people have faith right away while others may take much longer to accept the truth. Baptism is the most clearest topic in the bible I just don't understand how you can deny that it is part of salvation. Where does the bible teach that baptism is an outward sign for an inward change? Where does it say that baptism is a sigh for others.

Things you can not deny:
Baptism puts you into christ body which is the church 1cor 12:13' gal 3:27 rom 6:3-4 Act 2:47

Baptism is when your sins are forgiven. Acts 2:38 Acts 22:16 rom 6:6 col 2:13

Baptism is part of salvation. Mark 16:16 1Peter 3:21
 
Upvote 0

cougan

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2002
766
7
51
Visit site
✟8,856.00
Faith
Christian
LB I was really hoping that you would comment on the other stuff I have presented. Where do you belive that I am in error regarding the:

Holy Spirit not just being the active force of God
The Kingdom which is the church came at Petacost
Gods word had been preached to ever creature by at least 62AD
Mat 24 1-34 is talking about the destruction of Jeruselm.
Please comment on what I stated about the 144,000.

I have waited for a long time for a JW to actually defend their postion. Everyone I have ever tried to study with either claims up or doesnt show up. Or they do like lared has done and just state what the believe and dont try to back it up with scripture. I'm counting on you LB and I am very impressed with you and admire you for actually presenting scripture to back up what you are stateing. I hope that you continue to do so and I really hope that you will keep this discussion alive. I am not trying to wast anybody time here I just want to know why from scripture you hold the views you do.

Thanks
Cougan
 
Upvote 0

LightBearer

Veteran
Aug 9, 2002
1,916
48
Visit site
✟19,072.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Originally posted by cougan
You are trying to claim that someone needs to know a lot before they are baptized. This simply is not true. The plan of salvation is the milk of the word. A person can hear the word of God for the first time and know what they need to know in order to be saved and to know what it is that they are doing. If you teach someone and they belive the good news about Jesus and they ask you what they need to do to be saved. You can tell them that they need to repent and confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin. You of course would tell them that they will have to live their rest of their lives as faithful christians and need to study Gods word to see how they are to live their lifes as a christian. This is all a person needs to know to put christ on in baptism. Some people have faith right away while others may take much longer to accept the truth. Baptism is the most clearest topic in the bible I just don't understand how you can deny that it is part of salvation. Where does the bible teach that baptism is an outward sign for an inward change? Where does it say that baptism is a sigh for others.

Things you can not deny:
Baptism puts you into christ body which is the church 1cor 12:13' gal 3:27 rom 6:3-4 Act 2:47

Baptism is when your sins are forgiven. Acts 2:38 Acts 22:16 rom 6:6 col 2:13

Baptism is part of salvation. Mark 16:16 1Peter 3:21



I did'nt say know alot, I said know the basics.
Lightbearer.

Being an active minister of the gospel and having an accurate understanding of basic Bible teachings

That becoming a Christian needs to be an informed and considered decision which could take weeks or months of aquainting yourself with God, Jesus and their purposes and requirements before commiting, Jesus implied by when he said, "”Whoever is not carrying his torture stake and coming after me cannot be my disciple. For example, who of YOU that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense”, Luke 14:27-28.

Baptism is a serious step and God does not want anyone to take it lightly.

Also Jesus said "Make a disciple out of someone and teach them all of my commandments. Note: this does not imply, give a message and walk away. A christian who is following Jesus command about making disciples has a heavy responsability to help that one personally and at cost to oneself. This can be a long proccess.

Jesus did not say make disciples by baptizing them as you imply, but rather make disciples then baptize them. What makes a person a disciple (in the discipline of), is it his baptism or that the person is following the teachings. Clearly it is the latter.
 
Upvote 0

cougan

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2002
766
7
51
Visit site
✟8,856.00
Faith
Christian
What in the world are you talking about. I did not call you any names nor I have lost an arguement. I did'nt even know that we were argueing. I thought we were trying to reason from the scriptures. What are considering name calling? If you talking about me refering to Russlle Rutherford and the Watchtower society as false prophets, I am asking you to explain to me how they cannot be considered that. The bible itself says that you can tell if someone is a profet of God if what they say comes to pass. Deut 18: 21-22. Mr Russle claimed to be a prophet of God and said the end of the world would come in 1914 when it didnt he changed his mind and said it would be in 1916. Mr Rutherford also claiming to be a prophet claimed that in 1925 that people were going to be raised from the dead that was in the war and that old men would become young and people would grow back their hair and missing limbs. THE WATCHTOWER made 44 predictions between May 1940 to April 15 1943 about the end of the world and Armageddon, which never came to pass. Do you deny this? Is my information wrong? I do not see it wrong to call them false prophets if the bible calls them false prophets. Do you not agree that if a self proclaimed prophet predicts somthing over and over again and it doest come true that it would be safe to call them a false prophet? I will stop calling them a false prophet as soon as you provide me information that shows that they did not make these claims or that they came true.

If your unconfortable with the truths I have uncovered and are not just sure how to respond I understand. Theres no need to just come up with any excuse you can to keep from answering the questions. Well anyway LB I hope you change your mind and show me the error of my ways. If I am wrong I will change my ways, would you?

God bless you LB,

Cougan
 
Upvote 0