Janie's Got A Gun

[Argy Lacedom]

You are welcome to believe he was defeated.

Indeed he was.

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The injury was muscle strain (doctors diagnosis not mine). I've had enough of those in my life to know they don't go away the way this one did.

You're kidding, right? Every medical practitioner in the world knows soft tissue injuries respond in all sorts of ways.

But this goes much deeper than the vanity that you seem to harbour. Why on earth do you think god would be interested in curing your muscle strain when there are young babies suffering from cancer? Mothers with MS? Fathers with AIDS?

What sort of a monstrous god do you believe in? No caring god would cure your petty injuries before these.

You made the claim that faith healing is false.

No I didn't. You asked me what facts lead me to become a non-believer. One of them was the bible's claim that faith healing happens. There has never been ANY proof that this has ever happened. You then claimed that you had been miraculously cured. You have failed to prove that claim.

Well so far I haven't seen you produce any examples.

Talking snakes, talking donkeys, a flat earth, Moses witnessing his own funeral, rain coming from windows in the sky, the earth standing still for a day, every species of animal in the world fitting onto a tiny boat, a worldwide flood, staffs truning into snakes? These things aren't absurd?

I am simply asking you to prove science has the theory right. Scientfic proof is considered to be achieved when something has been replicated.

You have the wrong idea about science. It does not "prove" theories. Theories are really working hypotheses that explain observations very well. A theory may be accepted by the majority of the scientific world, but it is always recognised that the theory might be overturned if different evidence shows up. The theory of gravity is a case in point. For a few hundred years Newton's theory held. It was overturned when Einstein's general relativity came along. And it is known even now that Einstein is probably wrong because it does not mesh with quantum mechanics at very small scales.

So many athiests want us to use faith to accept science is 100% correct about how the universe came to be yet are happy to reject the use of faith in other matters such as FAITH!

You are wrong on so many levels. Science is never 100% correct. It is a framework, or method, by which we invetigate and try to understand the world in which we live. It actually relies on falsifiable hypotheses. In other words, a fundamental, essential, requirement of a scientific theory is that it be falsifiable. For example, the theory of relativity predicts that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If we found something that did travel faster we would have falsified the theory. That's common to all scientific theories. They are working hypotheses; they can be overturned if contrary evidence turns up.

And that is totally the opposite to religion. Religions make claims that are non-falsifiable. They rely on faith - belief without evidence. In fact most religions specifically forbid trying to find evidence to falsify their claims. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" springs to mind. This is why there are so many different religious sects in the world. There is no way of determining whether any of their claims are correct, so anything goes.

If you think differently then I have a challenge. Prove to me that your god is not imaginary. Show me how your god is different to the tooth fairy.

 

[Tahoenite]

No. I granted them nothing. They were born with innate abilities that are result of their genetic herritage. These abilities have been refined by their invironment including their family life, friends, schooling and life experience.

And let me ask one last time. What is your point?

I appreciate your patience, still working up to my point.

What would your children's opinions and cognitive abilities be like if you denied them the chance to experience family life, friends, work, school, and the environment associated with all of them?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

I appreciate your patience, still working up to my point.

What would your children's opinions and cognitive abilities be like if you denied them the chance to experience family life, friends, work, school, and the environment associated with all of them?

I have no idea where you're heading. I have answered you many times, so let me remind you that you owe me an answer to a question.

Here it is again...

Imagine I design a cage to house some special mice I want to breed. I breed them to make them exactly how I want them to be; inquisitive. In the cage I make lots of doors so they can use their inquisitiveness and amaze me with their antics, because, you know, I love them so much. But I've made one door different from all the rest. If they go through that door I will pour acid in their eyes, break their legs and slowly roast them alive over a hotplate. Who is to blame when the mice go through the door and get tortured, me or my designer mice? Who is the monster, me or them?

 

[Tahoenite]

I have no idea where you're heading. I have answered you many times, so let me remind you that you owe me an answer to a question.

Here it is again...

Imagine I design a cage to house some special mice I want to breed. I breed them to make them exactly how I want them to be; inquisitive. In the cage I make lots of doors so they can use their inquisitiveness and amaze me with their antics, because, you know, I love them so much. But I've made one door different from all the rest. If they go through that door I will pour acid in their eyes, break their legs and slowly roast them alive over a hotplate. Who is to blame when the mice go through the door and get tortured, me or my designer mice? Who is the monster, me or them?

There is a flaw with your analogy, you are comparing God to a scientist that has lab manufactured pet rats, not a father that has children.

My point, is that God is a father. Yes He created us like all parents do (maybe not in the same fashion but to the same extent). He does not want to see anyone suffer or perish.

As a father He wants us to grow and become who we want to be. If he kept us in a cage and never let us have a choice what kind of father would He be? He did not He gave us the chance to make choices, even the wrong choices so we can learn and hopefully gain wisdom and better understanding.

Yes He does have some harsh rules and laws, but that is like any father that sets rules for his household. If children do not like them they are welcome to leave when they are old enough. They may get forced out sooner if they pose a threat to the house or family.

What right does He have to punish everyone that does not follow His rules? What if they are not punishments but natural consequence? Most of the perceived punishments from scripture I have understood to be the expected outcome of poor choices and behavior. We as parents try to guide our children to make healthy choices that benefit their lives. But do they always listen?

He is a father trying to help His children grow and avoid as much suffering as possible. He is not a sadistic mad scientist that wants to inflict torment.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

There is a flaw with your analogy, you are comparing God to a scientist that has lab manufactured pet rats, not a father that has children.

Well, if god is the creator he certainly is more like a scientist who has manufactured pet rats than a father.

Fathers have no control over the world into which their children are born, or the size and shape of their bodies or their intellects. Only the mad scientist, god, has this sort of control.

He does not want to see anyone suffer or perish.

Then why did he create hell? Why does he allow people to be tortured for all eternity? Why did he create us imperfectly so that we have a predisposition to sin? Why does he allow us to be contaminated by original sin?

He gave you no choice in relation to your ability to be tempted. If sin is such a bad thing for him why did he make you susceptible to it?

If he kept us in a cage and never let us have a choice what kind of father would He be?

He does keep us in a cage - he keeps us locked in this world. We have no choice as to whether we get to heaven or not. Only he has the key. Would you stay locked and bound on this earth if you had a chance to go to heaven?

He is a father trying to help His children grow and avoid as much suffering as possible. He is not a sadistic mad scientist that wants to inflict torment.

I think you are suffering from battered wife syndrome. You are in an abusive relationship yet you defend your abuser. Like many battered wives you have an unhealthy attachment to your abuser. You think you cannot live without him and think that, deep down, despite all the pain and suffering you are going through, your abuser really loves you.

What is more, this abuser is an imaginary one. You have been convinced of his existence by what others have told you. You have never seen or heard your god. At the best you've only imagined you have.

I think deep down you really understand that your god is as real as the tooth fairy.

 

[Tahoenite]

Well, if god is the creator he certainly is more like a scientist who has manufactured pet rats than a father.

Fathers have no control over the world into which their children are born, or the size and shape of their bodies or their intellects. Only the mad scientist, god, has this sort of control.

Fathers have plenty of choices. You can choose how your children are raised, what school they go to, who they can play or hang out with, what they do with their free time, when they can and can't leave the house.

Then why did he create hell? Why does he allow people to be tortured for all eternity? Why did he create us imperfectly so that we have a predisposition to sin? Why does he allow us to be contaminated by original sin?

He gave you no choice in relation to your ability to be tempted. If sin is such a bad thing for him why did he make you susceptible to it?

To for warn us that there are consequences for our actions. This true in life, people reap what they sow. If someone doesn't obey laws they will eventually get arrested, if a child blows off school long enough it hurts their chances of getting into a university, if someone has poor social skills and is rude they will most likely be without mates.

He gave us a choice, we chose sin. If He did not allow us to make the wrong choice we would not have a choice at all.

He does keep us in a cage - he keeps us locked in this world. We have no choice as to whether we get to heaven or not. Only he has the key. Would you stay locked and bound on this earth if you had a chance to go to heaven?

A cage has no where to go, no one or thing to learn from, and you wait for meals to be brought to you.

We may be bound to earth, we as a species have not been able to explore all that it has to offer, or what humanity as a whole can offer.

We are not in a cage, we may be excluded from going certain places, but that is life there will always be somewhere that is off limits to one person or another.

Getting into Heaven is easy, all you need to do is accept Christ as your savior.

I think you are suffering from battered wife syndrome. You are in an abusive relationship yet you defend your abuser. Like many battered wives you have an unhealthy attachment to your abuser. You think you cannot live without him and think that, deep down, despite all the pain and suffering you are going through, your abuser really loves you.

What is more, this abuser is an imaginary one. You have been convinced of his existence by what others have told you. You have never seen or heard your god. At the best you've only imagined you have.

I think deep down you really understand that your god is as real as the tooth fairy.

Actually I came to believe in God well before I became a Christian. I did not become a real Christian until I read the bible. You may think that the rules and commandments are strict and pointless. I have found them to be an incredible grounding rod and guide on how to approach life and people. I have yet to find any social guidance in scripture that is flawed in anyway.

I am not a Christian because I think I have to be, I am a Christian because it makes the most sense.

 

[Tahoenite]

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[Argy Lacedom]

Fathers have plenty of choices. You can choose how your children are raised, what school they go to, who they can play or hang out with, what they do with their free time, when they can and can't leave the house.

God never played or hung out with me. He has ignored me and kept himself hidden. I have asked him time and time again to reveal himself to me unambiguously, but he obviously doesn't care enough to do that. Not a very good role model for fathers, unless you think letting your kids go do what they want is a good thing.

But my real biological father, on the other hand, is a real treasure. Someone to look up to and admire. He at least tried to guide me. He took a personal interest. He didn't stay away from home or use go-betweens to communicate with me.

>If sin is such a bad thing for him why did he make you susceptible to it?

To for warn us that there are consequences for our actions.

??? That doesn't make any sense. How does sinning forewarn us of anything? Sorry, you'll have to explain that concept to me in much more detail.

This true in life, people reap what they sow

I think you have a very limited imagination. What is god's aim? If it is to have us live in heaven with him in harmony for all eternity why did he create this world of suffering for us? Why did he create a world where it is so hard for people like me to believe that he exists. And why do I run the risk of spending eternity in hell just because I have an inability to believe?

Why didn't he just create us in heaven and be done with it?

He gave us a choice, we chose sin.

We only choose sin because god predisposed us to sin.

Look at it this way. If you had a choice in how you were created would you deliberately choose to give yourself a sinful personality? Of course not. But god did not give you a choice. He created you with a sinful nature without your consent.

Getting into Heaven is easy, all you need to do is accept Christ as your savior.

I have come to the conclusion that that is a lie. A lot of people have told me that, but never God. If he esists then he knows I am sceptical and he knows that I know that he, being all powerful, would be able to do it with no effort at all. So, why doesn't he tell me directly in a way that I understand unambiguosuly? If you are telling the truth why doesn't he back you up?

I have yet to find any social guidance in scripture that is flawed in anyway.

So you think it's right to kill homosexuals for being homosexuals? You think it's right to kill children who misbehave for their parents? You think it's ok to make blood sacrifices? Should men who have sex with menstruating women be cast out of society? Should a priest's daughter who "plays the harlot" be burned to death? Is it wrong for crippled or disabled people to approach the alter?

Is it wrong to punish the children for the sins of his parents? And lastly, the big one; Is it right that an innocent man be put to death in place of a guilty one?

 

[Tahoenite]

God never played or hung out with me. He has ignored me and kept himself hidden. I have asked him time and time again to reveal himself to me unambiguously, but he obviously doesn't care enough to do that. Not a very good role model for fathers, unless you think letting your kids go do what they want is a good thing.

But my real biological father, on the other hand, is a real treasure. Someone to look up to and admire. He at least tried to guide me. He took a personal interest. He didn't stay away from home or use go-betweens to communicate with me.

Sounds like He blessed you greatly. A common understanding for Christian parents is that we are supposed to reflect God's love through the way we raise our children.

??? That doesn't make any sense. How does sinning forewarn us of anything? Sorry, you'll have to explain that concept to me in much more detail.

God's for warning that the punishment for sin is death, and possibly hell. He told us what to expect if we sin. Still didn't stop Adam and Eve.

I think you have a very limited imagination. What is god's aim? If it is to have us live in heaven with him in harmony for all eternity why did he create this world of suffering for us? Why did he create a world where it is so hard for people like me to believe that he exists. And why do I run the risk of spending eternity in hell just because I have an inability to believe?

You don't have the inability to believe, you have made the choice not to. If you honestly looked for God to learn from Him, you would find Him. If you look for Him to confront or mock Him, you will never find Him.

Why didn't he just create us in heaven and be done with it?

What will a child learn if they are given everything and never have to work for it?

We only choose sin because god predisposed us to sin.

Look at it this way. If you had a choice in how you were created would you deliberately choose to give yourself a sinful personality? Of course not. But god did not give you a choice. He created you with a sinful nature without your consent.

That is a funny statement since I was not raised a Christian. In my upbringing almost everything was permissible. I got fed up with it when people would not call something that was wrong, wrong. Everything was ok. For some reason I rebelled against my upbringing and became a bible believing Christian.

I have come to the conclusion that that is a lie. A lot of people have told me that, but never God. If he esists then he knows I am sceptical and he knows that I know that he, being all powerful, would be able to do it with no effort at all. So, why doesn't he tell me directly in a way that I understand unambiguosuly? If you are telling the truth why doesn't he back you up?

If the Lord came to you directly it would probably scare you into believing, and that is not what the Lord wants. He whispered to Elija and that almost made his knees buckle.

All the other Christians on these forum and in RL that give similar arguments back me up.

So you think it's right to kill homosexuals for being homosexuals? You think it's right to kill children who misbehave for their parents? You think it's ok to make blood sacrifices? Should men who have sex with menstruating women be cast out of society? Should a priest's daughter who "plays the harlot" be burned to death? Is it wrong for crippled or disabled people to approach the alter?

These are some very good questions, and I do not believe under the new testament that Christians should perform executions unless it is part of their duties under a legitimate governing body.

Homosexuality as well as any other sexual sin becomes a gateway for people to deviate from God's ideal for sex between husband and wife. If homosexuality was considered acceptable, anything else should be also.

I always took it as children that would be misbehaving to be teens if not older. Who's conduct caused criminal level disturbance in their society and when the parents could not control them, the village did. Seems like a effective way to keep young people polite.

Blood sacrifices, the punishment for sin is death. Someone or something always pays for a sin.

Why can't a man give his wife a week off if she is menstruating? I think that law was put into the bible to protect women, not limit men.

I do not know why they burned priests' daughters who prostituted themselves.

God set the standard that nothing imperfect could approach Him. Thankfully Jesus can heal any disability, and did so for many.

Is it wrong to punish the children for the sins of his parents? And lastly, the big one; Is it right that an innocent man be put to death in place of a guilty one?

Should a child suffer for their parents sins? When do they not? Parental shortcomings and poor choices always fall on their children. If a parent is a criminal, the child is raised without that parent. If a parent has bad habits the child will inherit those. If a parent has poor money managing skills the child will have nothing when they reach adulthood.

Who would let an innocent man pay the price for the guilty one. Does the innocent man have a choice in the matter?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Sounds like He blessed you greatly.

Yes. And my dad did it without help.

A common understanding for Christian parents is that we are supposed to reflect God's love through the way we raise our children.

Thanks goodness that didn't happen with my parents. They were not absent, they were with us daily and they did not use surrogates. Unlike your god.

God's for warning that the punishment for sin is death, and possibly hell. He told us what to expect if we sin. Still didn't stop Adam and Eve.

If you believe that we are all sinners then it actually has been a pretty ineffective warning, no?

You don't have the inability to believe, you have made the choice not to.

If belief is as simple as a choice then you must accept that you have the ability to choose not to believe in him. I challenge you to prove that it is a choice by choosing to disbelieve in his existence.

That is a funny statement since I was not raised a Christian.

The statement has nothing to do with you being a christian. It has to do with the fact that, whatever way you were brought up, God never gave you a choice as to whether you were born with a sinful personality. He gave you a sinning nature without your consent.

If the Lord came to you directly it would probably scare you into believing, and that is not what the Lord wants.

You're joking, right? Jesus never had that problem. Moses seemed able to cope, as did Saul of Tarsus and the three sisters of Fatima. Get a grip man. Stop making excuses for your absent imaginary friend!

All the other Christians on these forum and in RL that give similar arguments back me up.

Obviously you're all wrong together.

Homosexuality as well as any other sexual sin becomes a gateway for people to deviate from God's ideal for sex between husband and wife. If homosexuality was considered acceptable, anything else should be also.

What is your precise objection to homosexuality? Is it that one man can love another (in which case you would condemn Jesus for loving his disciples)? Is it because of anal or oral sex? Let me remind you that homosexuals can do nothing that a heterosexual couple can do. Heterosexual couples indulge in anal sex and oral sex.

So let me ask you again as clearly as I can. What is it, precisely, that is uniquely objectionable to homosexual love?

And why is it just to kill them for it?

I always took it as children that would be misbehaving to be teens if not older.

So to prevent this you believe it is just and fitting that disobedient children should be killed?

Blood sacrifices, the punishment for sin is death. Someone or something always pays for a sin.

So why does the person who sins get away with it while the innocent sacrifice is killed?

Why can't a man give his wife a week off if she is menstruating? I think that law was put into the bible to protect women, not limit men.

It has nothing to do with "giving the wife a week off". If she does not consent it is rape. God's punishment applies even if there is consent - Do you think banishment from society a just punishment for a consensual act?

I do not know why they burned priests' daughters who prostituted themselves.

That's not the question I asked. I asked if it was a just punishment? Is it?

God set the standard that nothing imperfect could approach Him.

Balderdash. God is supposed to be everywhere. How can the imperfect not be near him? And you have got the wrong end of the stick. It wasn't a case of approaching god, it was a case of approaching alters. If we are all imperfect (as you must agree) then everyone should be prevented from approaching alters, not just cripples.

Should a child suffer for their parents sins?

That is not the question. The question is "should a child be punished for his parents sins"? Is it just for the innocent to be punished in place of the guilty?

Who would let an innocent man pay the price for the guilty one.

You really don't understand Christianity do you? According to Paul, an innoent man (Jesus) was punished so that the guilty (us) could go free.

The punishment of the innocent to free the guilty is the whole foundation of Christianity. If you don't understand that then you do not understand the religion you purport to follow.

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[Amisk]

I really wonder if the problem in North America with guns is not so much the guns, as it is the glorification of violence produced in Hollywood, and show in the living rooms on a daily basis.

A Canadian T.V. Net work recently celebrated 50 years on the air. They held a phone in program in which listeners phoned in their comments on the changes through the years on the movies shown.

One viewer suggested that she would like to see more of the old time movies, like "Beverly Hillbillies" etc. Her comments caused the anchorman to wonder if those old time movies could hold the attention of views now days, in which crime and police shows have become the prime time movies.

Violence seems to be so in grained in the modern day psychic that anything less has become Polly Anna in the view of the viewers.

 

[Tahoenite]

Argy, I thought you may actually be looking for some insight into why Christianity functions the way it does. This seems to be far from the truth.

Obviously you're all wrong together.

You have already made up your mind, you are not looking for answers you are looking to argue. Which benefits no one. I feel sorry for you.

 

[TheDag]

Well, if god is the creator he certainly is more like a scientist who has manufactured pet rats than a father.

Fathers have no control over the world into which their children are born, or the size and shape of their bodies or their intellects. Only the mad scientist, god, has this sort of control.

Then why did he create hell? Why does he allow people to be tortured for all eternity? Why did he create us imperfectly so that we have a predisposition to sin? Why does he allow us to be contaminated by original sin?

He gave you no choice in relation to your ability to be tempted. If sin is such a bad thing for him why did he make you susceptible to it?

He does keep us in a cage - he keeps us locked in this world. We have no choice as to whether we get to heaven or not. Only he has the key. Would you stay locked and bound on this earth if you had a chance to go to heaven?

I think you are suffering from battered wife syndrome. You are in an abusive relationship yet you defend your abuser. Like many battered wives you have an unhealthy attachment to your abuser. You think you cannot live without him and think that, deep down, despite all the pain and suffering you are going through, your abuser really loves you.

What is more, this abuser is an imaginary one. You have been convinced of his existence by what others have told you. You have never seen or heard your god. At the best you've only imagined you have.

I think deep down you really understand that your god is as real as the tooth fairy.

Yet again alot of these questions come from hopefully not understanding christian doctrine or deliberately misunderstanding. You focus on one part while ignoring the flip side.

You ask why children are punished for parents sin that is just an acknowledgment of what happens naturally like many things. For example my wife has trouble not swearing because when she was growingup every second word from her dad was a swear word. However I find it easy not to swear because if we ever did as kids my parents quickly told us off. So behaviour and choices made by parents affect children. Surely that isn't difficult to understand. Alot of the ceremonial laws are simple hygiene practices some of which are still followed today. Others are no longer required because of advances in technology. Same with food laws. Like a stop sign on the road. It isn't there just for the fun of it to make us stop but rather to bring order to the roads and prevent accidents. it is there for our protection.


I will get back to your earlier post when I have more time. I wrote most of the response and had computer problems.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

For example my wife has trouble not swearing because when she was growingup every second word from her dad was a swear word. However I find it easy not to swear because if we ever did as kids my parents quickly told us off. So behaviour and choices made by parents affect children.

No one said that behaviour is not influenced by environment. But that is not what the Christian doctrine of original sin is about. You cut your wife some slack because of her upbringing, but according to christian dogma god doesn't extend the same courtesy. Children inherit the guilt for the sins of their parents and are punished by god for all eternity because of it.

Also, if we are to believe the justifications put forward by christians for the blood sacrifice of Jesus, we must accept that God is willing to accept that the punishment of the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is a just thing to do. If we followed that reasoning in real life we would be happy to send a son to the electric chair because the father commited murder. It seems that god is more interested in dishing out punishment than who deserves to get it. God needed blood and he didn't care where it came from.

Alot of the ceremonial laws are simple hygiene practices some of which are still followed today.

So how does that make killing homosexuals and disobedient children a just thing to do? Or burning a priest's daughter for "whoring"? Or wearing clothes of two fibres? Or wearing a rounded beard?

 

[TheDag]

No one said that behaviour is not influenced by environment. But that is not what the Christian doctrine of original sin is about. You cut your wife some slack because of her upbringing, but according to christian dogma god doesn't extend the same courtesy. Children inherit the guilt for the sins of their parents and are punished by god for all eternity because of it.
This is just further proof you don't understand. What I was talking about which was in response to something you said is different to original sin.

Also, if we are to believe the justifications put forward by christians for the blood sacrifice of Jesus, we must accept that God is willing to accept that the punishment of the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is a just thing to do. If we followed that reasoning in real life we would be happy to send a son to the electric chair because the father commited murder. It seems that god is more interested in dishing out punishment than who deserves to get it. God needed blood and he didn't care where it came from.

and still further proof you don't understand. One has to start to question if you listened to what you were taught when younger or if you tried to understand things.

So how does that make killing homosexuals and disobedient children a just thing to do? Or burning a priest's daughter for "whoring"? Or wearing clothes of two fibres? Or wearing a rounded beard?

I suppose I should have made it clearer what exactly I was responding to however being rushed for time I didn't. You obviously know what it was responding to as you didn't mention it here.

I find it funny that you keep repeating questions but when provided with evidence in other threads that counter your point you keep insisting that your right. So come on be honest are you interested in answers or are you actually as appears just interested in arguing?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

That's a pretty pathetic response! Merely claiming that I don't understand doesn't contribute one iota to the discussion.

What have I got wrong? Didn't god have a perfectly innocent man brutally killed so he could forgive those who are guilty?

So come on be honest are you interested in answers or are you actually as appears just interested in arguing?

I am interested in the answers, but you keep avoiding the questions.

God demanded that homosexuals be killed. That couples who make love while the woman is menstruating be banished. That disobedient children be killed.

My question is whether you think these are just punishments in any circumstances. And if so, should we adopt them?

 

[TheDag]

That's a pretty pathetic response! Merely claiming that I don't understand doesn't contribute one iota to the discussion.

What have I got wrong? Didn't god have a perfectly innocent man brutally killed so he could forgive those who are guilty?

I am interested in the answers, but you keep avoiding the questions.

God demanded that homosexuals be killed. That couples who make love while the woman is menstruating be banished. That disobedient children be killed.

My question is whether you think these are just punishments in any circumstances. And if so, should we adopt them?

well tell you what when you acknowledge answers given and rather than just going well I don't want to believe that then I'll start taking you seriously again.
Hint: I'm not talking about this thread but several previous ones.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

It is not possible for anyone, including you, to force me to believe anything. That takes logic and good argument. If I have rejected your answers (and without you providing me links I can't imagine what those might be) then it is probably because they made no sense.

Anyway, back to this thread. ...

My question is whether you think the punishments I listed are just punishments in any circumstances. And if so, should we adopt them?

 

[TheDag]

It is not possible for anyone, including you, to force me to believe anything. That takes logic and good argument. If I have rejected your answers (and without you providing me links I can't imagine what those might be) then it is probably because they made no sense.

Anyway, back to this thread. ...

My question is whether you think the punishments I listed are just punishments in any circumstances. And if so, should we adopt them?

interesting why you put the words including you in the opening sentence. I'm not trying and never have tried to force anyone to believe.

Actually in the thread I didn't post an argument but rather proof that some things have happened which you claimed did not. I'm not talking about things like faith healing that you say can't be verified but rather matters that are easily verified. I am being deliberately vague here because your rejection in the case I'm talking about along with posts here show what your motives are. Interestingly though the sermon at my church was on this very topic today.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

I am being deliberately vague here because your rejection in the case I'm talking about along with posts here show what your motives are.

I am perfectly happy to address anything specific. But I suspect you do not provide the links because you are unsure of your argument and it suits you to make vague and unsubstantiated claims.

Again, back to this thread. Let me repeat...

My question is whether you think the punishments I listed are just punishments in any circumstances. And if so, should we adopt them?


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