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James Tour demolishes secular claims of solving the origin of life

RTP76

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If you're a young earth Creationist, then something like evolution of course could never make any sense. Paleontology and geology could never really make any sense to you either. If you would like examples, I could share.

Anyway...
CC: @Aussie Pete

Well I think there are definitely some 'kook' creationists that prefer to turn a blind eye to evolution and glibly dismiss it as a whole. The serious creation scientists that are active in the field (ex. Dr. Todd Wood) take a more objective position and do agree that life [at least at the level of created "kinds"] has evolved (changed) over time. I guess my position is [admittedly] what I call "conservative" (in the sense that I don't stray from what is written in scripture), but at the same time if observable reality contradicts my understanding of scripture, I am open to reassessing my understanding of scripture. And to be clear, I don't believe there is an observable reality corroborating evolution from a universal common ancestor (rather, only inferences / conjecture / assumptions)... so again, I go with scripture.

I wrongfully assumed that you believed that the earth was millions of years old. Hence why I was presenting what you view as a false dichotomy. With that said, there is nothing really more to be said on the topic of evolution. Evolution really requires an understanding of geology and even a position of an ancient earth.

If you would like to talk about geology, feel free to let me know, I am a geologist. Otherwise i suppose I'll move on. Common descent and the idea that life evolved over time really is incompatible with young earth global flood beliefs.

All the best.
I've appreciated your input and the discussion. I've read (certainly not all), but a few of your posts within your links on Old Earth Geology Parts 1 and 2 and do enjoy the illustrations you use to support your position. Even if I don't agree on the perspective of time and the natural linkages between conventional geology and evolution, I do still appreciate the informative/educational nature of your posts and the apparent effort that goes into them. If I have any questions about geology, I'll certainly reach out to you and/or start up a separate topic.

Thanks again and God bless brother--I'll probably be 'offline' a bit over Thanksgiving week, so if you or anyone posts something to me, don't take it as ignoring if I don't respond right away : )
 
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Aussie Pete

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CC: @Aussie Pete

Well I think there are definitely some 'kook' creationists that prefer to turn a blind eye to evolution and glibly dismiss it as a whole. The serious creation scientists that are active in the field (ex. Dr. Todd Wood) take a more objective position and do agree that life [at least at the level of created "kinds"] has evolved (changed) over time. I guess my position is [admittedly] what I call "conservative" (in the sense that I don't stray from what is written in scripture), but at the same time if observable reality contradicts my understanding of scripture, I am open to reassessing my understanding of scripture. And to be clear, I don't believe there is an observable reality corroborating evolution from a universal common ancestor (rather, only inferences / conjecture / assumptions)... so again, I go with scripture.


I've appreciated your input and the discussion. I've read (certainly not all), but a few of your posts within your links on Old Earth Geology Parts 1 and 2 and do enjoy the illustrations you use to support your position. Even if I don't agree on the perspective of time and the natural linkages between conventional geology and evolution, I do still appreciate the informative/educational nature of your posts and the apparent effort that goes into them. If I have any questions about geology, I'll certainly reach out to you and/or start up a separate topic.

Thanks again and God bless brother--I'll probably be 'offline' a bit over Thanksgiving week, so if you or anyone posts something to me, don't take it as ignoring if I don't respond right away : )
Thanks for cc'ing me. By the way, there are proponents of a "pre-Adamic" creation that accept that the earth predates Adam and Eve. I'm inclined to believe it. It answers a lot of questions. Of course, others have a young earth view and that's fine by me.
 
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Job 33:6

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The sequence you reference here is inferred and while I do not ignore and do understand the data used in making this inference, I still see it as just an inference. Further, reptile remains have been found in the stomachs of mammals so if we infer 'this' led to 'that' as a succession, I can equally infer that 'this' and 'that' existed at the same time, and I would add that reptiles and mammals, at least in these few cases, apparently also existed in the same locality. That said, I can conclude they co-existed at the same time... with a fairly high confidence level, leaving little to support by inference.

"Further, reptile remains have been found in the stomachs of mammals so if we infer 'this' led to 'that' as a succession, I can equally infer that 'this' and 'that' existed at the same time, and I would add that reptiles and mammals, at least in these few cases, apparently also existed in the same locality. That said, I can conclude they co-existed at the same time... with a fairly high confidence level, leaving little to support by inference. "

The proverbial Cambrian bunny challenge will forever exist for those who doubt that the succession exists.

Do I infer based on evidence that early tetrapods were extinct long before dinosaurs? Yes.

But to date, of the trillions of fossils found world wide, none have defied the succession suggestive of common descent. The proverbial Cambrian bunny most likely doesn't exist. Hence why it remains unseen after so much research and investigation.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Man, you deserve a trophy for that one! Good response!

How about responding to my words? As an example, the transition from fish to amphibians spanned tens of millions of years, so why would the speaker suggest that changes happened "at the same time"?

The transition literally spans some 50 million years from one body type to another.
The origin of tetrapods
I suggest that you ask him. He is willing to respond to genuine enquiries. Trolls, he ignores.
I suggest that you contact Dr Walt Brown also. He literally wrote the book. James Tour is frequently invited to speak, but he does not write books.

Here we go:
“What random process could possibly explain the simultaneous evolution of the eye’s optical system, the nervous conductors of the optical signals from the eye to the brain, and the optical nerve centre in the brain itself where the incoming light impulses are converted to an image the conscious mind can Comprehend?” Wernher von Braun, foreword to From Goo to You by Way of the Zoo by Harold Hill

“It must be admitted, however, that it is a considerable strain on one’s credulity to assume that finely balanced systems such as certain sense organs (the eye of vertebrates, or the bird’s feather) could be improved by random mutations. This is even more true for some of the ecological chain relationships
(the famous yucca moth case, and so forth). However, the objectors to random mutations have so far been unable to advance any alternative explanation that was supported by substantial evidence.” Ernst Mayr, Systematics and the Origin of Species . Of course, the writer could not even contemplate the idea that God created all things

“The eyes of early trilobites, for example, have never been exceeded for complexity or acuity by later
arthropods. … I regard the failure to find a clear ‘vector of progress’ in life’s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.” [Stephen Jay Gould, “The Ediacaran Experiment”
It's only puzzling if you believe in evolution.

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 175. It is indeed an absurd proposition.

“Thus so far as concerns the major groups of animals, the creationists seem to have the better of the argument. There is not the slightest evidence that any one of the major groups arose from any other. Each is a special animal complex related, more or less closely, to all the rest, and appearing, therefore, as a special and distinct creation.” Austin H. Clark, “Animal Evolution,” Quarterly Review of Biology

“Every series of breeding experiments that has ever taken place has established a finite limit to breeding possibilities.” Francis Hitching, The Neck of the Giraffe: Where Darwin Went Wrong

“All competent biologists acknowledge the limited nature of the variation breeders can produce, although they do not like to discuss it much when grinding the evolutionary ax.”
William R. Fix, The Bone Peddlers: Selling Evolution

I tried and failed to distil these arguments rather than quote them verbatim. Since you have such a fixed mindset, I have no doubt that you will reject the statements from noted evolutionists, including Darwin himself.
It's been said that an infinite number of monkeys with keyboards will eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare. The problem is that in 50-70 years, the chimpanzees will be dead. And looking at the internet, the more people on keyboards, the more incoherent the internet becomes.
 
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Job 33:6

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From goo to you by Harold hill? Lol. Quotes just don't get more legitimate than this one.

I see more quote mines of Gould and Darwin who lived in the 1800s.

"Fix has an M.A. degree in behavioral science from Simon Fraser University and is the author of several books promoting the paranormal."

Oh boy.
 
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Aussie Pete

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From goo to you by Harold hill? Lol. Quotes just don't get more legitimate than this one.

I see more quote mines of Gould and Darwin who lived in the 1800s.

"Fix has an M.A. degree in behavioral science from Simon Fraser University and is the author of several books promoting the paranormal."

Oh boy.
Don't bother refuting the arguments. Stick to insults and mockery. I'd be disappointed otherwise.
 
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Job 33:6

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Don't bother refuting the arguments. Stick to insults and mockery. I'd be disappointed otherwise.

Ok? Fine, I'll explain your quote mines and lack of legitimate commentary. Let's begin here:

"“The eyes of early trilobites, for example, have never been exceeded for complexity or acuity by later
arthropods. … I regard the failure to find a clear ‘vector of progress’ in life’s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.” [Stephen Jay Gould, “The Ediacaran Experiment”

Quote Mine Project: Gould, Eldredge and Punctuated Equilibria Quotes

From the very same paper:

"But I also believe that we are now on the verge of a solution, thanks to a better understanding of evolution in both normal and catastrophic times."

"I have devoted the last ten years of my professional life in paleontology to constructing an unorthodox theory for explaining the lack of expected patterns during normal times -- the theory of punctuated equilibrium. Niles Eldredge and I, the perpetrators of this particularly uneuphonious name, argue that the pattern of normal times is not a tale of continuous adaptive improvement within lineages. Rather, species form rapidly in geological perspective (thousands of years) and tend to remain highly stable for millions of years thereafter. Evolutionary success must be assessed among species themselves, not at the traditional Darwinian level of struggling organisms within populations. The reasons that species succeed are many and varied -- high rates of speciation and strong resistance to extinction, for example -- and often involve no reference to traditional expectations for improvement in morphological design. If punctuated equilibrium dominates the pattern of normal times, then we have come a long way toward understanding the curiously fluctuating directions of life's history. Until recently, I suspected that punctuated equilibrium might resolve the dilemma of progress all by itself
." -Gould

For anyone who actually knows anything about Stephen J Gould, we know that he was an avid supporter of biological evolution. He openly discussed transitional fossils for which he affirms there are an "abundance" of. In his research he also suggests allopatric speciation as a means of evolution which could explain the fossil record.

Regarding the above quote mine, in the very same research paper, he goes on to describe how evolution could produce precisely what we see in the fossil succession and beyond that he explains why what we see in the fossil succession supports the theory of evolution.

Can you accept that Gould supports biological evolution and acknowledges an abundance of transitional fossils? @Aussie Pete
 
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