Are they both recording the words of Christ and are they both being inspired by the same Holy Spirit?
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The view of specific events as described by two different men.
Quasar92
This is another of those posts which rips out of its context the historical fulfillment of past events in an attempt to make modern Dispensational Theology work.
Nobody can deny that the Book of Jeremiah was written during the time that Israel was going into and was in captivity in Babylon. It was a tremendous time of trouble for that nation. It is a historical fact. Daniel knew the captivity was about to end during his time, based on the words of Jeremiah. The captivity did end about 70 years after it started, just as Jeremiah had predicted.
Nobody can deny there was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18. It is a historical fact. This was the 70th week of Daniel, as confirmed by the 1599 Geneva Bible.
Nobody can deny that the same warning to flee from Jerusalem to the mountains is found in Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21. Therefore the verse before each of those verses must be related.
We know that the first Abomination of Desolation occurred during 167 BC, when Antiochus Epiphanes had a pig slaughtered on the altar of the Jewish temple, he also killed thousands of Jews in Jerusalem and he stopped the temple sacrifices. Based on Luke 21:20-24, we know something similar happened during 70 AD. The Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah each year, because a reference is found in John 10:22. Josephus confirms in his writings that the Jews of his time understood that Antiochus had fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel, exactly as predicted 408 years after Daniel made the prediction.
From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "
In Matthew 24:15 Jesus was telling his Jewish audience that something similar to 167 BC would happen again during 70 AD. Luke spelled it out for his more Gentile audience in Luke 21:20, that it would occur when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
During 66 AD Roman forces under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city and then left for some unknown reason. The Jews killed thousands of Roman soldiers during the retreat. The Romans would return a few years later to destroy the city during 70 AD.
The early Christians heeded the warning of Christ in Matthew 25:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 and fled from the city before the final siege of 70 AD. This is also a historical fact.
The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, modern Dispensational Theology's Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart. After that point, ripping past events out of their historical context is no longer necessary.
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Show me by the Scriptures where Israel lost 2/3 of its population during the 70 years they were exiled into Babylon and Persia, rather than gaining in population.
Do you think the Babylonians took all of the Israelites to Babylon?
Do you think they put the old men and women and small children in a wagon and hauled them safely to Babylon?
Or was it more like the "Trail of Tears", when the Cherokee were forced to leave their homes?
How many of those Native Americans died on the trip?
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Jacob's trouble was fulfilled in Jeremiah's day.When are you going to stop kidding yourself, in attempting to make the exile of Israel to Babylon/Persia for 70 years come anywhere close to the 3.5 years of Jacob's trouble, described in the seven seals, the seven trumpet and the seven bowl judgments described in Rev.6 through 16.
Your views have already been thoroughly refuted Scripturally, in the OP, posts #25, 33 and 36. It is long past your conceding and moving on!
Quasar92
Jacob's trouble was fulfilled in Jeremiah's day.
Prophecy:
Jeremiah 30:5
For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Fulfillments:
Jeremiah 8:16
The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.
Jeremiah 6:25
Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.
Jeremiah 12:12
The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the Lord shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.
Jeremiah 16:5
For thus saith the Lord, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people, saith the Lord, even lovingkindness and mercies.
Prophecy:
Jeremiah 30:6
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Fulfillments:
Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.
Jeremiah 6:24
We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.
Prophecies:
Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:10
But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Fulfillments:
Jeremiah 11:12
Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
Jeremiah 14:8
O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?
Jeremiah 29:10
For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jeremiah 46:27
But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
There is no relationship between Jacob's trouble of the Babylonian captivity, and the great tribulation.
The correlations in Jeremiah between prophecies and fulfillments have been demonstrated using the actual words and expressions for validation. What similar demonstrations can you provide?Post #44 pertains to you as well, refuting you in all aspects of your claim Jacob's trouble took place in Jeremiah's time. As all of those posts clearly reveal, Jacob's trouble takes place concurrently with the Great Tribulation, which it is, yet to occur.
Quasar92
Your views have already been thoroughly refuted Scripturally, in the OP, posts #25, 33 and 36. It is long past your conceding and moving on!
The correlations in Jeremiah between prophecies and fulfillments have been demonstrated using the actual words and expressions for validation. What similar demonstrations can you provide?
It is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 which has refuted those who rip verses out of their historical context to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, that has done the refuting on this forum.
God's Word is like a sharp two-edged sword which cuts John Nelson Darby's doctrine to pieces, as clearly seen in the video below.
Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology
Pastor John Otis
Israel will be made an international city which doesnt belong to Israel any longer.
Post #44 pertains to you as well, refuting you in all aspects of your claim Jacob's trouble took place in Jeremiah's time. As all of those posts clearly reveal, Jacob's trouble takes place concurrently with the Great Tribulation, which it is, yet to occur.
Quasar92
It is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 which has refuted those who rip verses out of their historical context to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, that has done the refuting on this forum.
God's Word is like a sharp two-edged sword which cuts John Nelson Darby's doctrine to pieces, as clearly seen in the video below.
Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology
Pastor John Otis
Ahh, yet another poster with "Darby on the brain". Anyone who even does rudimentary research on this knows that Darby hardly held the copyright to that theology. It goes way back to the early days of the church with documented proof. There is ample evidence that many were teaching dispensational ideas long before Darby. Sir Isaac Newton is one who did a full century before Darby came on the scene.
And who cares? Why do so many feel threatened by pre-trib, dispensational theology? In the vein of William Shakespeare, "ye doest protest too much, me thinks". Seems to me that dispensational theology seems to really cut a nerve with these folks. If they are secure in their beliefs, then it should matter not to them. After all, it isn't what justifies us before God.
Remember, Yeshua did not say "they will know you by your eschatological position". He said they would know us by our love for one another. And He prayed to the Father that we would be as one as He and the Father are one. Is it any wonder that so many in the world want nothing to do with "those darn Christians" when they see the church acting just like the world, nit picking and food fighting over doctrinal stuff that is not the key to being made righteous before God?
Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
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Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
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We do owe much to Newton for his contributions in the associated scientific disciplines. But you probably don't want to be citing him as any doctrinal authority. From Wikipedia:Sir Isaac Newton is one who did a full century before Darby came on the scene.
What evidence do you have that contradicts that of Wikipedia?Wiki is not necessarily the final authority on knowledge or historical events. I have quite a few of Newton's commentaries and have read them. Try it sometime instead of relying on others to do your homework.
And those that refute the idea have little knowledge of the OT passages that discuss the end times events.
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