It's Not Too Soon to Debate Gun Control

[Hank77]

and proof of safe storage would be proper requirements.

One could have a gun safe, or trigger guards but that doesn't mean they will use them.

 

[mark46]

You must understand

1) Criminals and sick people will kill hundreds with knives if they must. The number of guns matters not at all. Access to guns will not stop the NUMBER of crimes. The number of deaths can be controlled by every MAN in the US over 12 carrying a gun at all times.

2) Semi-automatic weapons are no more a danger than knife. Besides, they are need to kill deer.

3) Republicans (actually anyone) who supported any change to gun laws would lose all finding from the NRA, in addition to the NRA influenced organization including the RNC and many lobbying organizations.

4) It is totally irrelevant that in countries with similar cultures to ours, there are fewer guns and lots less gun violence.

5) It is also irrelevant that registering guns and keeping a national database of guns would help law enforcement in their prosecution of criminals.

 

[lasthero]

I was stating that the president is trying to deal with issues we find in poorer neighborhoods.

How, exactly?

What's he done in the past year to help poorer neighborhoods out?

What's he proposed to do?

 

[jardiniere]

So, you want to bulls eye gun owners because of what criminals do?

Yes-I think it will throttle the transfer of guns to criminals, and reduce crime by gun. If a gun owner doesn't care who he sells guns to, they should indeed be responsible. Sort of how like laws make parents responsible for the damage their children do.

I don't think most gun owners have an issue with what you said (insurance, etc), but I would have an issue with you assuming the worse - it almost sounds like all 'gun owners' faults that nut cases go off on a killing spree.

I'm NOT a gun owner by the way.

I am.

Most registered gun owners aren't the ones going out, and doing these crazy things.

I most certainly agree. However, it's not like people doing the crimes are buying only black market guns, are they? I don't think so. When we start holding dealers and other gun owners responsible for selling guns that they possess, they will be a lot more careful who they sell them to. Sell only to other registered gun users. It's not like you would need to have a gun to be a registered user, just like you don't have to have a car to have a driving license.

 

[mark46]

Criminals and the mentally ill with a car or explosives.

THEREFORE, reducing the number of semi-automatics weapons available will NOT reduce the number who die through violence with guns.
======
I apologize for my being taught by my teachers in grade school that this type of logic makes no sense.
I pray for those who think that this logic makes sense, and I pray for the country, since such folks have elected their representative as president of the US.

3 of the worst ever mass murders in America didn't even facilitate a gun:

Worst School Massacre in US history: Bath, Michigan School Massacre. 1927. Murder accomplished with explosives. 44 victims (equal to the Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres combined).

Worst Domestic Terrorist Attack in US History: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. 4/19/95. Murder accomplished with a rental truck full of fertilizer based explosives. 168 dead (including many children in an on-site daycare).

Worst Foreign-based Terrorist Attack in US History: September 11, 2001, attacks on NYC, PA, Pentagon. Murder accomplished with box cutters and commercial airliners. ~3,000 people dead.


There are mass murders all over the world without the use of guns. The worst by far is this murder by fire that killed 198.

Daegu subway fire, Daegu, South Korea: 2/18/2003. 198 killed, 147 injured. A 56-year-old unemployed taxi driver, dissatisfied with his medical treatment, sets fire to a crowded train.

Arson, Stabbing Rampage in Seoul South Korea: 10/20/2008. 6 people dead, 5 from stabbing. 7 others wounded, 4 seriously. An angry man felt people “looked down on him.”

Anti-police stabbing spree in Shanghai, China: 7/2008. 6 Police Officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded. 28-year-old man angry at police attacked a police station with a knife.

Akihabara Massacre, Chiyoda City, Tokyo, Japan: 6/8/2008. 7 people killed (3 struck by car, 4 by stabbing), many more injured. Man slammed into a crowd with his car, then jumped out and began stabbing people to death.

18 year old slashes 4 to death in Sitka, Alaska, US: 3/25/2008. 4 people killed. 18-year old (old enough to purchase a rifle over the counter) kills 4 people, related to him, with a 5-inch knife.

Stabbing Spree kills 2, Tsuchiura, Japan: 3/23/2008. 2 killed, 7 wounded. Man “just wanted to kill anyone.”

Stabbing spree wounds 41, 6 seriously in Berlin Train Station:5/26/2006. 41 wounded, 6 seriously. Thankfully no one died in this attack, but not for lack of trying on the part of the drunk 16 year old.

4 killed in stabbing spree in London, UK: 9/2004. 4 killed, 2 wounded. Mentally ill man attacks mostly older people.

6 killed over Xbox dispute in Deltona, Florida, US: 8/6/2004. 6 killed. 4 men (all old enough to legally purchase firearms) bludgeon 6 people to death with baseball bats over purloined Xbox.

Osaka School Massacre, Osaka Japan: 6/8/2001. 8 children dead, 13 other children and 2 teachers wounded. Committed by 37 year old former janitor armed with a kitchen knife.

 

[Hank77]

The mayor loves to tell people its guns from surrounding states, but if you read enough news stories? It's a convenient tale that is politically satisfying to him, and not reality. Yet, they leave him alone...because he does all the 'right' things overall - and well connected. If he loses in the next election? Someone with his same 'groupthink' will take over, and nothing will change. It makes me cynical, because you see all these innocents die...and they do nothing.

Their gun laws aren't saving them, because their government ignores problems they decide NOT to deal with. It's heartbreaking, and cruel. It really is.

Boy, I was thinking all those exact things last night.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yeah, I get all that. I really do. He is not the best speaker and he says a lot of stuff in the wrong way. I am more interested in what actually gets accomplished.

Not a whole lot, for better or worse.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to hyjack the thread and make it about Trump. I was stating that the president is trying to deal with issues we find in poorer neighborhoods. Including gun violence. But he made a comment that is haunting him. Even if it was not his intention to racist or even offensive, he did offend people.

Agreed -- and in times like this, as in the wake of another massacre (which, sadly, are coming more and more frequently) diplomacy and tact are of the utmost importance. Our current president has absolutely none of these qualities, and, according to some of his supporters, was elected precisely because he has none of these qualities...

They were sick and tired of "political correctness" (which I will concede occasionally gets ridiculous), so they elected a man who is utterly incapable of being politically correct even when the situation absolutely calls for it.

Every time Donald goes off his teleprompter, thousands of conservatives facepalm.

 

[LostMarbels]

Inner cores have definitely been gentrified. I remember working in downtown Seattle about ten years ago. It was a nice and safe place, until it got dark. I remember, especially on third avenue, where all the poor blacks were waiting around bus stops, to be extra careful and aware if I found myself there after a later than normal work day. The busses becam their connectivity to the "inner city" from the CD (central district) when now has also been somewhat gentrified.

I don't know where "they" live any more. I'm in KY now. I certainly know where "they" live in Louisville, now. And yes, those are dangerous areas.

I gonna be direct. I hate racist and everything they stand for. It is something I struggle with in my Christian walk, may God forgive my judgment.

I live in the south, this little comment here: "It was a nice and safe place, until it got dark." Means: It was a nice and safe place, until 'N' ers came around, in the south anyways. If that is your meaning don't bother responding to my post, I got nothing to say to you.

If not, I'd really like to understand what you mean by "they" when you are referring to other human beings. And what exactly you meant by the neighborhood 'got dark'.

 

[jardiniere]

Do you want guns registered or gun owners registered?

Both. Frankly, I'd like everyone to be registered to own a gun. Because that will make sure it's difficult for government to remove everyone's guns. (I'm actually in favor of the 2nd amendment, but I do think we need to demand more responsibility from owners.) Register everyone with a mandatory class in gun use, safety and law. Just like you have to pass a test for driving.

What is the purpose of fingerprinting?

Improving crime investigation.

Gun insurance or gun owner insurance?

Gun owner insurance. I think normal household insurance covers gun loss.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I gonna be direct. I hate racist and everything they stand for. It is something I struggle with in my Christian walk, may God forgive my judgment.

I live in the south, this little comment here: "It was a nice and safe place, until it got dark." Means: It was a nice and safe place, until 'N' ers came around, in the south anyways. If that is your meaning don't bother responding to my post, I got nothing to say to you.

If not, I'd really like to understand what you mean by "they" when you are referring to other human beings. And what exactly you meant by the neighborhood 'got dark'.

I think he means when the sun goes down.

 

[LostMarbels]

I think he means when the sun goes down.

Maybe. But the way he quoted "they" every time caught my attention.

I apologize for any offense if I spoke incorrectly. If not and it was a racist comment, at least I don't intend to be any more offensive than the comment I responded to.

 

[Hank77]

I think it's interesting that you make a post about black people when the post you quoted was about gang members and thugs... it makes me think of the "What does a thug look like?" and the gymnastics people used to pretend that they don't mean black.

Gang members and thugs != black people

When you're talking about gangs, they entail more than Bloods or Crips. They also include Latin Kings, MS-13, the Mafia, Black Dragons, Flying Dragons, Bandidos, Cossacks, etc.

This thread was actually going along quite well and in a civil manner until.....
This thread is not about racism or anything that Donald Trump, Republicans, Democrats, etc. may say.
So please, please, contribute some wisdom on gun control regulations. Thanks.

 

[Almost there]

I gonna be direct. I hate racist and everything they stand for. It is something I struggle with in my Christian walk, may God forgive my judgment.

I live in the south, this little comment here: "It was a nice and safe place, until it got dark." Means: It was a nice and safe place, until 'N' ers came around, in the south anyways. If that is your meaning don't bother responding to my post, I got nothing to say to you.

If not, I'd really like to understand what you mean by "they" when you are referring to other human beings. And what exactly you meant by the neighborhood 'got dark'.

"Got dark" means the sun went down. That's why I mentioned that the lateness of the hour mattered. By "they", I mean poor kids that just "hang around". At first I ignored them and considered them to be like I was when I was a "lower middle class" kid just hanging around. But I came from an intact family. I learned these kids were "not like me" in their culture. They were potentially dangerous. Yes, they were mostly black, but it was not the race that concerned me, with one exeption - I learned to be rightly concerned that they may be racist against ME. I saw some pretty harrowing stuff there.

BTW, one day my wife and I were on a bike ride and had stopped for coffee in teh international district of Seattle (used to be called Chinatown). Suddenly some asian kid, looking to be about 15, came running around a corner about half a block away. Soon, about 15 more "kids" came around the corner chasing him. They caught him and proceeded to kick and beat the living daylights out of him, while lots of people looked on. I ran over there and started grabbing kids off of the "pile" and one taxi stopped and the driver and I were the only people there that didn't just stop and watch.

In that case, "they" were a bunch of asian kids. I'm not a racist, but I am most definitely a "culturist". This means that typically an activity will be "mostly" comprised of one race or another, but it's not really about the race of the people involved. It is about the subculture of the people involved.

I put it this way:

You are walking down a dark street where there seems to be nobody else around, and a bunch of young men (6-8) approach from the other direction. As they approach, which group makes you most nervous

Group 1: They are wearing slacks and polo shirts or button down dress shirts and talking about a professor they hate, or they are chiding one of the guys about his car being a beater. They are all black.

Group 2: They are wearing hoodies and pants slid down 8" below the waistline. They are punching each other and talking about where they can get some beer or dope. They are laughing about one of them getting a girl pregnant. They are all white.

Before you answer, let me ask you this: If group one is all white and group two is all black, is your answer different? For me it isn't. My concern comes from their apparent culture, not their race.

 

[SummerMadness]

One could have a gun safe, or trigger guards but that doesn't mean they will use them.

Speaking of pools, there are laws and regulations in place for people with pools in their yards. When there are drowning deaths, depending on the circumstances, there is a review of the laws to see if they are adequate.

When it comes to guns, there are complaints about reviewing laws or attempts to change the subject. For instance, with the terrorist attack in NY, one of the changes that should be instituted are erecting more barriers. like what is used at airports and other buildings considered targets for terrorism. When it comes to shootings, there doesn't seem the urgency to address failures in the law. The main problem when it comes to addressing the law is citing that "criminals don't follow the law," as if there is this separate society of criminals that kills everyone. In fact it's more complex than that, with many people not being criminals before they decide to commit a mass shooting. Considering that only stolen guns account for only 10-15% of guns used in crime, we do need to do a better job in tracking guns and better coordinate background checks for state and federal databases. Some people often mention mental health, but they just say mental health issues while ignoring the president revoked gun checks for people with mental illnesses. Why? Because Obama. If we're going to keep talking about mental illness, then we need to actually do something to address violence and mental illness (the mentally ill also make up a sizable proportion of the people killed by police).

My post wasn't directed at you, but speaking on the subject in general.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

This thread was actually going along quite well and in a civil manner until.....
This thread is not about racism or anything that Donald Trump, Republicans, Democrats, etc. may say.
So please, please, contribute some wisdom on gun control regulations. Thanks.

It got a little sidetracked because every time gun regulations are brought up people point to gang members as being the only ones who ignore laws and use guns in nefarious ways. They point to ineffectual gun laws not preventing gang violence in major cities as if that has anything to do with totally separate issue of random mass shootings that often are what spark the gun conversation and not gang violence.

 

[LostMarbels]

Criminals and the mentally ill with a car or explosives.

THEREFORE, reducing the number of semi-automatics weapons available will NOT reduce the number who die through violence with guns.
======
I apologize for my being taught by my teachers in grade school that this type of logic makes no sense.
I pray for those who think that this logic makes sense, and I pray for the country, since such folks have elected their representative as president of the US.

Not a whole lot, for better or worse.



Agreed -- and in times like this, as in the wake of another massacre (which, sadly, are coming more and more frequently) diplomacy and tact are of the utmost importance. Our current president has absolutely none of these qualities, and, according to some of his supporters, was elected precisely because he has none of these qualities...

They were sick and tired of "political correctness" (which I will concede occasionally gets ridiculous), so they elected a man who is utterly incapable of being politically correct even when the situation absolutely calls for it.

Every time Donald goes off his teleprompter, thousands of conservatives facepalm.

I'll post a radical idea that is going to get you mad at me, but the killings are going to continue until conservatives give up their gun rights. There are people that are so passionate about an idea that they will act out. Bomb an abortion clinic. Beat Gays. Attack other races. I think a large part of this a frenzied public that intends to show how dangerous guns are.

Both groups targeted in the last 2 weeks were white conservative Christians, by white males that are dead, and can no longer testify. Next, I think attacks on minorities are going to be possed as retribution.

 

[SummerMadness]

"Got dark" means the sun went down. That's why I mentioned that the lateness of the hour mattered. By "they", I mean poor kids that just "hang around". At first I ignored them and considered them to be like I was when I was a "lower middle class" kid just hanging around. But I came from an intact family. I learned these kids were "not like me" in their culture. They were potentially dangerous. Yes, they were mostly black, but it was not the race that concerned me, with one exeption - I learned to be rightly concerned that they may be racist against ME. I saw some pretty harrowing stuff there.

BTW, one day my wife and I were on a bike ride and had stopped for coffee in teh international district of Seattle (used to be called Chinatown). Suddenly some asian kid, looking to be about 15, came running around a corner about half a block away. Soon, about 15 more "kids" came around the corner chasing him. They caught him and proceeded to kick and beat the living daylights out of him, while lots of people looked on. I ran over there and started grabbing kids off of the "pile" and one taxi stopped and the driver and I were the only people there that didn't just stop and watch.

In that case, "they" were a bunch of asian kids. I'm not a racist, but I am most definitely a "culturist". This means that typically an activity will be "mostly" comprised of one race or another, but it's not really about the race of the people involved. It is about the subculture of the people involved.

I put it this way:

You are walking down a dark street where there seems to be nobody else around, and a bunch of young men (6-8) approach from the other direction. As they approach, which group makes you most nervous

Group 1: They are wearing slacks and polo shirts or button down dress shirts and talking about a professor they hate, or they are chiding one of the guys about his car being a beater. They are all black.

Group 2: They are wearing hoodies and pants slid down 8" below the waistline. They are punching each other and talking about where they can get some beer or dope. They are laughing about one of them getting a girl pregnant. They are all white.

Before you answer, let me ask you this: If group one is all white and group two is all black, is your answer different? For me it isn't. My concern comes from their apparent culture, not their race.

Neither makes me nervous because they're not because clothes mean nothing to me and a group of young kids horsing around with each other is of little concern to me. But what does this have to do with gun control? Nothing.

 

[bhsmte]

This thread was actually going along quite well and in a civil manner until.....
This thread is not about racism or anything that Donald Trump, Republicans, Democrats, etc. may say.
So please, please, contribute some wisdom on gun control regulations. Thanks.

When one has an obsession, they tend to interject that obsession, to just about everything.

 

[Almost there]

I'll post a radical idea that is going to get you mad at me, but the killings are going to continue until conservatives give up their gun rights.

Though I agree, I would add that the killings would continue even after this hypothetical giving up of gun rights. The empirical evidence, worldwide, is pretty clear. The problem is that some people have issues. The good news is that very few people are impacted by this sort of stuff. It's a news story, to be sure, but it certainly doesn't kill as many people as cars. And I don't expect anyone to be giving those up soon. And the right to own them is not even constitutionally protected.