It just doesnt seem fair. (Warning huge Rant)

[RDKirk]

If people really have had no opportunity to hear about God and his salvation, then they have had no opportunity to reject him either.
I believe that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for rejecting him, when in fact they were never told about him.

As stated in Psalm 19, and read in the book of Job, as described by Paul in Romans 1, and as Paul actually witnessed in Athens-- there is enough God visible in creation that any adult has all the information necessary to acknowledge His existence and grasp His essential virtuous nature. No adult has an excuse for not doing at least that much.

 

[GTW27]

It just doesn't seem fair that my mother, dad, sister, brother in law...etc all have to burn and suffer for an eternity just because they don't believe in Christ and it doesn't matter what I say to them they will ALWAYS be unbelievers.


Yet, I'm somehow saved because I'm a believer? Please! Why the heck should we be saved and the rest of the world has to burn? I mean do we HONESTLY believe this crap? And how the heck can we enjoy our eternities KNOWING that our friends and loved ones are out there suffering?

And Annihalationism is even worse than suffering forever. Why? Because Annihalationism teaches that unbelievers won't burn for forever but their very souls get destroyed! Idk about you? But to me that sounds WORSE than burning for forever. Its designed to soften the blow but to me it just sounds 50,000 times worse. The scariest part of that reality is that one day we will cease to exist. Idk about you guys but I'd RATHER eternal suffering than to just one day cease to exist. That was the scariest part of atheism to me was when I believed that one day I would die and cease to exist. I became a Christian because I didn't want to accept that reality. I didnt WANT to perish. But honestly atheism sounds ridiculous to me now. Yes, there IS a God. I've seen him and I'd be a fool to stop believing in him but honestly? How can I believe in God's justice? It is just SO unfair and either way you slice it it makes God sound like a tyrant. Whether Annihalationism is true or if they burn forever it doesn't change the outcome. It is just all seriously screwed up. Yet I continue to love and serve God anyway. I think its just time I accepted that I didn't choose God but God chose me and that the rest of my family just wasn't chosen by God. God took pity on me instead. The sooner I accept that the better.

As we grow in Him He grows in us. And as He grows in us, understanding increases. In other words, what you can not see now, you will understand then. And when you understand then, you will finally be able to see His plan from the beginning is perfect. It is not His desire that any should perish. In the mean time, keep praying for the lost, and do not lose heart, for He hears you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It just doesn't seem fair that my mother, dad, sister, brother in law...etc all have to burn and suffer for an eternity just because they don't believe in Christ and it doesn't matter what I say to them they will ALWAYS be unbelievers.

Yet, I'm somehow saved because I'm a believer? Please! Why the heck should we be saved and the rest of the world has to burn? I mean do we HONESTLY believe this crap? And how the heck can we enjoy our eternities KNOWING that our friends and loved ones are out there suffering?

And Annihalationism is even worse than suffering forever. Why? Because Annihalationism teaches that unbelievers won't burn for forever but their very souls get destroyed! Idk about you? But to me that sounds WORSE than burning for forever. Its designed to soften the blow but to me it just sounds 50,000 times worse. The scariest part of that reality is that one day we will cease to exist. Idk about you guys but I'd RATHER eternal suffering than to just one day cease to exist. I didnt WANT to perish.

....And Annihalationism is even worse than suffering forever. Why? Because Annihalationism teaches that unbelievers won't burn for forever but their very souls get destroyed! Idk about you? But to me that sounds WORSE than burning for forever......

I would rather not suffer either one.

That aside, the concept of Hell in the Bible is shown mainly in a few places in the NT

The only people shown being threatened with "gehenna" in the NT are the Jewish religious rulers in Mattew 23, which is eerily similar to the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation. It appears to be a Jewish/Hebrew construct from the Old Testament:

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Then there is this "covenantle" parable showing a Rich man being tormented in a flame:

LUKE 16:24
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham! [NC Faith/Life?] have mercy on me! and send Lazarus [Resurrection]!
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am [OC Law/Death?] tormented in this flame.' "

And here in Revelation 14:11

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

I have a thread at this link concerning "gehenna" and "lake of fire" for those interested [there are a plethora of threads on CF concerning "hell"]
Blessings

Is the "Gehenna" of Matt 23:33 the Lake of Fire in Revelation?

...............

...............

.

 

[moonlit]

God gave us freewill - to submit, believe, repent, follow Him and be saved, or to continue as a sinner and be led by our emotions and ego.

 

[Strong in Him]

As stated in Psalm 19, and read in the book of Job, as described by Paul in Romans 1, and as Paul actually witnessed in Athens-- there is enough God visible in creation that any adult has all the information necessary to acknowledge His existence and grasp His essential virtuous nature. No adult has an excuse for not doing at least that much.

Acknowledging that he exists, yes - though some explain it away by the big bang, chance, evolution etc, if they think bout it at all.
But a person won't know about his love for sinners, his patience, mercy, grace, gift of the Holy Spirit and many more blessings, unless they are taught, and experience these things for themselves.

 

[Dave L]

If people really have had no opportunity to hear about God and his salvation, then they have had no opportunity to reject him either.
I believe that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for rejecting him, when in fact they were never told about him.

So then it would be better if Jesus never came to earth and God never spoke at all?

 

[Dave L]

There is always an option

Really? How about someone in a vegetative state or in a coma?

 

[Strong in Him]

So then it would be better if Jesus never came to earth and God never spoke at all?

No.

 

[Dave L]

No.

It seems all would end up in heaven had he stayed away, according to your reasoning.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I would rather not suffer either one.

That aside, the concept of Hell in the Bible is shown mainly in a few places in the NT

The only people shown being threatened with "gehenna" in the NT are the Jewish religious rulers in Mattew 23, which is eerily similar to the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation. It appears to be a Jewish/Hebrew construct from the Old Testament:

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Then there is this "covenantle" parable showing a Rich man being tormented in a flame:

LUKE 16:24
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham! [NC Faith/Life?] have mercy on me! and send Lazarus [Resurrection]!
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am [OC Law/Death?] tormented in this flame.' "

And here in Revelation 14:11

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

I have a thread at this link concerning "gehenna" and "lake of fire" for those interested [there are a plethora of threads on CF concerning "hell"]
Blessings

Is the "Gehenna" of Matt 23:33 the Lake of Fire in Revelation?

...............

...............

.

I wouldn't want to suffer either either. But if I had to pick one id choose being tormented forever over ceasing to exist. The scariest part of being human to me is death. I don't want to die but then again, nobody does its a reality every human has to live with. So the concept of being tormented for forever at least I have eternal life and will never die. I'd still thank Jesus for sending me there if that was my ultimate fate because at least I wouldn't have to die. True I probably would prefer death because my torment would be unbearable but... Idk... I'd still prefer that over ceasing to exist. Ceasing to exist is by FAR the scariest thing I've ever heard of. Its true, before I was born into this world I ceased to exist but... Idk... Now that I actually know life I want to live for forever. Whether in comfort or in torment. I mean I'm a Christian so I definitely will never have to taste the second death but lets say for the sake of argument somehow I'm not saved. I'd still prefer that judgement than the latter. I highly doubt I'll change my mind either.

 

[Strong in Him]

It seems all would end up in heaven had he stayed away, according to your reasoning.

If Jesus hadn't come, we might not have known how much God loved us.
If we'd believed in God - through nature and by reading the OT - and wanted to become one of his people, we'd have had to convert to Judaism. Humans cannot, and never will be able to, atone for their own sin - we can't "make it up to God".
John says, "THIS is love; that God gave his Son for us", 1 John 3:16. If God had never given his Son for us sinners, Romans 5:8; we wouldn't know what love was.

The OT prophesies Jesus'coming, in any case. If he never came, they would be untrustworthy.

 

[Dave L]

If Jesus hadn't come, we might not have known how much God loved us.
If we'd believed in God - through nature and by reading the OT - and wanted to become one of his people, we'd have had to convert to Judaism. Humans cannot, and never will be able to, atone for their own sin - we can't "make it up to God".
John says, "THIS is love; that God gave his Son for us", 1 John 3:16. If God had never given his Son for us sinners, Romans 5:8; we wouldn't know what love was.

The OT prophesies Jesus'coming, in any case. If he never came, they would be untrustworthy.

According to your logic, God would be more loving had he remained silent and had Jesus not come to earth. All would be saved instead of most being damned.

 

[Strong in Him]

According to your logic, God would be more loving had he remained silent and had Jesus not come to earth. All would be saved instead of most being damned.

Not at all; when did I say that?

If God had created his universe and remained silent, we might have been perfect - he would not have given Adam a command not to eat from the tree. But the devil was still thrown down to earth, so who knows? And if God had always been completely silent - ignoring those he made - no one would have ever had a relationship with him. He must have spoken to Adam before he commanded him, as he told him to tend the garden and name the animals.
Would that have been heaven? Being perfect, but not knowing the One who made us because he didn't want to speak to us?

If Jesus had not come to earth, the only people in the world who might have been saved would have been his people, the Jews; not Gentiles.

Since God DID speak though, and Jesus DID come to earth; that's academic.

 

[Dave L]

If people really have had no opportunity to hear about God and his salvation, then they have had no opportunity to reject him either.
I believe that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for rejecting him, when in fact they were never told about him.

Not at all; when did I say that?

If God had created his universe and remained silent, we might have been perfect - he would not have given Adam a command not to eat from the tree. But the devil was still thrown down to earth, so who knows? And if God had always been completely silent - ignoring those he made - no one would have ever had a relationship with him. He must have spoken to Adam before he commanded him, as he told him to tend the garden and name the animals.
Would that have been heaven? Being perfect, but not knowing the One who made us because he didn't want to speak to us?

If Jesus had not come to earth, the only people in the world who might have been saved would have been his people, the Jews; not Gentiles.

Since God DID speak though, and Jesus DID come to earth; that's academic.

In your logic, all would be saved had Jesus never came to earth.

 

[Strong in Him]

In your logic, all would be saved had Jesus never came to earth.

Not at all - like I said.
How would all have been saved? Even the Jews who had God's law couldn't keep it, and the rest of the world had no clue.

 

[Dave L]

Not at all - like I said.
How would all have been saved? Even the Jews who had God's law couldn't keep it, and the rest of the world had no clue.

Strong in Him said: ↑
If people really have had no opportunity to hear about God and his salvation, then they have had no opportunity to reject him either.
I believe that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for rejecting him, when in fact they were never told about him.

 

[Hieronymus]

God sends no one to hell, it is man's choice that sends him to hell

I think it's God's choice to save, rather.

 

[Strong in Him]

Strong in Him said: ↑
If people really have had no opportunity to hear about God and his salvation, then they have had no opportunity to reject him either.
I believe that God is merciful and will not condemn someone for rejecting him, when in fact they were never told about him.

That doesn't say, or mean, that I think people would have been better off if Jesus had never come.
Jesus didn't come in the OT era - were people better off then? Were they saved then, without Jesus?

I was responding to your post where you said that the Caananites, Sodom, Gomorrah etc never had an opportunity to listen to God or choose him.
If people never get to hear about God - and I'm thinking now of remote tribes somewhere who have never heard the Gospel - I don't believe they will be judged by God for rejecting it. How can you reject someone you have never heard of and don't know?
God is judge and God is just, merciful and loving; he will do what is right.
I don't believe that it is possible that he will condemn someone because they haven't heard of Jesus - I could be wrong though. God sees the heart and sees thoughts and motives that we have no clue about.

But this is not at all the same as saying that if Jesus hadn't come then the whole world would be saved. THAT is like saying that God made a mistake when he sent Jesus and would have saved more people without him.

 

[Jane Hakes]

That's true because Adam was born perfect and sinless yet was still able to rebel against God because of his freewill and because Eve tricked him. So shouldn't that mean that Adam is now in hell? Yet many people seem to believe that Adam and Eve are in heaven right now. Hmm... I wonder...

The law does not save people in the Old Testament; their faith saves them. If they believe in God and the promises He made of sending a Redeemer (it's all through the OT), and they repent and turn from their wicked nature, they will be saved (Ezkiel 18: 26-28 is just one such promise).

 

[Strong in Him]

That's true because Adam was born perfect and sinless yet was still able to rebel against God because of his freewill and because Eve tricked him.

Eve didn't trick Adam, the serpent tricked Eve.
Adam knew perfectly well what God had commanded - he just chose to disobey.