It is funny, "sodomy" is not a sin listed in Scripture.

[SoulBap6]

The sin of Sodom was not homosexuality but found in their lack of hospitality and in rape. In those lawless days, towns would see visitors from outside as a threat. Male on male penetration was used as a means of subjugating those who entered. It was not a homosexual act - there being no orientation involved.

The act of sodomy brought destruction to the Cities and its People. You will not except that Sodomy and Homosexuality is one and the same. The act and the life style of Man on Man which in Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Homosexuality is not wrong to a Homosexual, Burning in lust is pretty strong emotion and temptation but in the eyes of God it is a Sin, and yes it is wrong according to the Bible. You cannot justify Sin to God, you may try and do it to man, but with God who does not change it is SIN.

 

[paul becke]

Certainly sodomy is utterly condemned in the bible, as mentioned in posts above, catamites are mentioned, too, but there is a very simple reason why such references are not more plentiful. The reason is that it would have been like telling people not to beat and rob their parents. The Jews certainly would not have needed preachers to tell them.

 

[paul becke]

The problem is that those things people generally believe to be sinful that aren't mentioned in the Bible, are deemed such because they cause hurt or harm. Any relationship, be it homosexual or heterosexual, within marriage or outside it, can be abusive or harmful - it's that which makes it sinful. But if a relationship provides happiness and fulfillment (in short - a Loving relationship), if it doesn't hurt or harm the people involved or others, then it doesn't seem to me that a God who, after all, is Love will consider it a bad thing.

As for sodomy itself - if conducted in a loving relationship with relevant health risks understood and preferably precautions taken, I can't see how it can be deemed to be wrong.

Bonzo, this is a very facile and shallow myth entertained and pleaded by homosexuals, who will simply not be told, will not come to terms with the idea that Christianity cannot and will not be moulded by them to suit their own taste, in the way that our secular societies have been. You must get your scriptural exegesis from the newspapers.

You use the term 'love' in the way that the secular media use the term, i.e. primarily, in their case, in reference to sexual relations of a necessarily deviant kind, due to the designs of men and women's respective anatomies being complementary.

Christian love is expressed almost entirely by self-sacrifice, but spiritual consolations and rewards nevertheless follow. C S Lewis expressed it perfectly, when he said, as I quote in my signature, 'Love is not affectionate feeling, but a steady wish for the loved person’s ultimate good as far as it can be obtained'

There are few people I have loved and admired as much as my late brother, but, if the matter of degree came into the matter at all, that would have made the idea of any kind of sexual relations with him seem all the more abhorrent to me. Sexual relations would have done anything but enhance my love for him. The same goes for male friends. But why is it that you find it impossible to acknowledge that the Bible prohibits homosexual relations? That does not speak well of your reasoning at all, on a number of levels.

 

[SoulBap6]

Sodomy is a unnatural sex act
sodomy

noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Noncoital carnal copulation. Sodomy is a crime in some jurisdictions. Some sodomy laws, particularly in Middle Eastern countries and those jurisdictions observing Shari'ah law, provide penalties as severe as life imprisonment for homosexual intercourse, even if the relations are between legally consenting adults. Other sodomy laws proscribe a variety of other forms of sexual contact and apply even to married couples. No such regulations are found in the law codes of Denmark, France, Italy, Sweden, The Netherlands, or Switzerland, among other countries.The Wolfenden committee in Britain and the American Law Institute recommended abolition of criminal penalties for sodomy, except in cases involving violence, children, or public solicitation. This position was adopted in England in 1967 and has been adopted in many U.S. states as well.

Bonzo our you Gay? God does not justify Sodomy? If so show me where or is this your interpretation of the scriptures? I find no where in the scriptures that this is Justified .

There is a great deal of hypocrisy among Christians who insist on calling practicing homosexuals 'abominations' - It's those Christians who are not behaving like Christ.

No its practicing Homosexual's is what the bible calls an Abominations. You said we were not behaving Like Christ, but Christ Call the Pharisee Hypocrites, our lord didn't mix words, it makes no difference what I think or you its about what God thinks since he will Judge you and me. According to the Bible Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I did not write this, this is what the lord said, you can take exception with me but you have to deal with God, not with me.

 

[paul becke]

Untrue, there is no part of the Bible that condemns sodomy per se. The word derives from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, but, as has already been pointed out, the sin of Sodom was rape and a lack of welcome. From the wikipedia entry for sodomy:

No specific sin is given as the reason for God's great wrath.

From the wikipedia entry on catamites:

In its modern usage the term catamite refers to the passive partner in anal intercourse.
In its ancient usage a catamite (Latin catamitus) was a pubescent boy who was the intimate companion of a young man in ancient Rome, usually in a pederastic friendship.

You admit that the references are not plentiful and you say that this is because the Jews would not have needed preachers to tell them. But that's a very poor argument. It would apply far more to adultery, which has obvious hurtful effects in comparison to a loving committed homosexual relationship which has positive benefits. If a deed were unlikely to be listed because it would be so obviously wrong, then we should expect adultery not to be listed often. Yet adultery is listed many times as a wrongdoing.

It matters not one jot how many times it is prohibited in scripture, if it is so prohibited once. Why do you think a commandment against sodomy does not figure in the Decalogue? Because it was so obviously anathema to the Jewish and Christian faiths. On the other hand, adultery always seems to have been a very widespread problem, remaining so, of course, to this day, and is all too natural (as opposed to supernatural).

In Judaeo-Christian culture, insofar as it would have been engaged in, sodomy would always have been covert, furtive, a secret practice, partly because it is anathematized in scripture, and partly so deemed according to the Jewish and Christian traditions. Well, anyone and everyone who has a little testosterone, has the potential for sodomy, but have you ever heard of a homosexual saint? And Christians are all called to be saints. There would have been more than one or two saints, I should think, who have committed adultery.

The bottom line is, moreover, that if you do not see sodomy as intensely morally ugly, while life may offer you many other things which you and many others find highly desirable, Christianity is not one of them, as scripture makes clear. If you can't see it as ugly, as a Christian, you would have to accept from God that it is. I have to accept that fornication with a beautiful woman outside of marriage is ugly. I would prefer it were not so, being quite superficial in that way, but it is.

The pink pound has wielded so much power in recent decades, it's evident that homosexuals now can't come to terms with the notion that there is something that they are unable to impose on society. Indeed, some are doing their best to crush it, on those very grounds. But they know in their hearts that they cannot win in the end, because they know the truth as well as the rest of us. It won't stop them. But they will be stopped in God's good time; which is not too far off by the look of things.

 

[paul becke]

It's pointless arguing with you any more. You will not accept truth. It was enough to see hear you say C S Lewis was not a good theologian to realise that. And the Catholic church has had a few decent theologians down the centuries too.

I've told you the way it is, but it has not the slightest effect. Now we just have to wait and see who wins.

 

[paul becke]

Bigotry is refusing to accept the plain words of scripture, reinforced, were it needed, by 2000 years of Christian tradition, based on scripture, commented upon by the early Fathers of the Church and many great saints and scholars down the centuries; all because you are determined that what you say is 'the gospel'. I don't have to insist. I've discharged my responsibility by stating the truth. Now it's up to you to see the error of your ways. But you won'ty if the past is any guide. You'll come back a sharp as a tack. Eternity is a long time.

 

[paul becke]

It's the opinion of a great many accomplished theologians that C. S. Lewis was not a very good theologian. He was, after all, not a trained theologian, nor a trained philosopher. He had a lot of heart, and I like a lot of his work, especially this outburst from Puddleglum:

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

Strikes a chord with what Desmond Tutu was saying about a homophobic God - he wouldn't want to worship one, would rather be true to goodness and go the other way even if it was to his doom.



Change in the church is already unstoppable. The demographics make it so. Among older Christians who grew up in an era where homophobia was acceptable, there are many who cling to the old lies about the Bible. But among younger Christians there is not so much of a majority. The world is changing - for the better.

Brave words, but it seems extremely doubtful Tutu will have the opportunity to worship God. His popularity seemed to have gone to his head a long time ago.

Tell me, why do you go on about 'diversity' and 'rainbows', when, if you had your way, rainbows would be just the one colour? 'Diversity' means 'heterogeneity', not 'homogeneity'. It seems you all speak out of both corners of your mouth. As usual, you want it both ways. That's what makes it impossible to have a rational exchange with you.

Likewise, it's now been proved that the notion that homosexuality is genetic, was long ago blown out of the water, yet they still claim they are discriminated against in the same way people are discriminated against for the colour of their skin. In any other group of people that would be a shockingly obstinate, duplicitous misrepresentation, but they ceased to shock a long time ago. Were it true, there would surely be a Nobel prize for anyone who found the gene that made my dog want to copulate with my leg.

 

[paul becke]

Slavery was endorsed by the church for ever such a long time too.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

It matters not whether the person attempts to justify their prejudices on religious grounds. The fact that they are prejudices (pre-judging without conclusive evidence) makes the act bigotry. There is no conclusive proof to be had from scripture on the subject of sodomy or homosexual relationships.

'There is no conclusive proof to be had from scripture on the subject of sodomy or homosexual relationships.'

I rest my case.

 

[paul becke]

Christianity accepted slavery in the earliest times, because it was not a revolutionary army. If they had resisted it in the early years, it would have been crushed. The Church was to evolve, and this it did. Grace must be allowed to build upon nature.

The Catholic church absolutely condemned slavery, I believe in the 1700s, when the African slave trade had begun its demonic course. It might have been during the 1600s.

However, it was mainly, I believe the non-conformist churches who played an active role in the US, in helping slaves escape.

 

[paul becke]

And is still doing... That's my point. The passages from scripture which for so long had supported those who argued for slavery, were shown to be inconclusive, and the Church moved forward.

I've explained that. It evolved once circumstances enabled it to; not because Christianity could ever have condoned it, in principle. Yaweh forbade the Jews from enslaving another Jew, stating it to be detestable to him. How much more for Christians, to whom the call to evangelize all peoples was paramount, all peoples being other brothers and sisters and potential other Christs.

But how about that utter deceitfulness of the homosexual activists with all that talk about diversity, rainbows, genetic inheritance, etc?

 

[Alithis]

The act of sodomy brought destruction to the Cities and its People. You will not except that Sodomy and Homosexuality is one and the same. The act and the life style of Man on Man which in Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Homosexuality is not wrong to a Homosexual, Burning in lust is pretty strong emotion and temptation but in the eyes of God it is a Sin, and yes it is wrong according to the Bible. You cannot justify Sin to God, you may try and do it to man, but with God who does not change it is SIN.

this was an interesting argument ..but false methinks

homosexual is merely a modern term given to describe ..those who choose to practice male to male sexual activity or "unatural acts" .. they think that if they change its name it some how excuses it as sin - it does not . not that you said it did mind .
they think right and wrong is defined by what society chooses to establish as "law" and if it is .by those standards "lawful" then it is not wrong .which is ludicrous of course .

they say that if a boy is born on September the 2nd ...and turns 16 on sep2nd that if a man has sexual activity with him on sep the 1st -he is a pedophile.. but if he does it on sep 2nd he is a homosexual ...so somewhere defiling a boys innocence 24 hours later is ok ?... it is Not !.Let God be true and every man a liar - God will judge and be right in his judgments .

much of western Christianity uses similar excuses by the way ..they use terms like "defacto relationship".. to excuse fornication.. etc .. some how that devious serpant is still lying to us ion the garden ..still trying to say .."Did God really say?" ..well here is the answer to that .. YES God did really "say" and his word is faithful and true

 

[tundrawolf]

I'll tell you the truth as a man who formerly engaged in homosexual behavior.

The recipient of anal sex is going to be in pain, regardless of the amount of lubrication used. Lubrication must always be used, and in large amounts.

Due to the way the anus muscle structure was designed, it never was created to have *anything* penetrate it. The pain, and even agony from it being penetrated is a warning from God.

Virgins experience pain during initial sex, is much less intense, and does not last- it goes away, never to return.

Anal sex is always painful, until your muscles are so stretched out that the recipient no longer feels pain.

When a woman is baring her naked body to a man, she is trusting him. She is loving him. She is hoping he will treat her as God designed her to be. His mate, his love, his earthly treasure. (Because I don't care how erotic praise and worship songs are. No Christian is going to be sharing their bed erotically with God. That's the purpose of their mate. Sorry.)

She is saying, "Here I am, bared before you, naked, vulnerable... Afraid."

If, as a man, you decide to penetrate her anus, the orifice that stinking feces comes out of, which is around 80% bacteria (Which is why it is warmer than the vagina. Bacterial breakdown creates heat) you *will* be stretching those muscles, often unto agony for her.

Each thrust will further pummel her body, hurting her. It won't stop either. She won't get used to it. Not the first time, not for a while.

No matter who she is, she will experience pain.

You are saying, as a man, as the provider, as the protector of her body and the house, that when she is vulnerable, you are choosing to hurt her physically during a time when you should be bonding with her in pleasure.

Ever wonder why your wife gets bouts or fits of rage against you? In my opinion, it could be because in the bedroom you are choosing to demean her, to hurt her, and to defile your own body- as well as hers.

(For the lack of sounding overly Catholic) sperm contains sperm that can become a child. This is the beauty of sex- you are creating life.

Now consider when God calls something an abomination.

Could it be, that you are spilling your seed, your [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] into feces (Or passages that carry feces) is something disgusting to God? It's like spitting in His face, and telling Him He did not do a good enough job on her body. If you consider it from a heavenly perspective, it is actually the ultimate insult to what God has set up.

Whenever your wife thinks about love making, is she going to remember your body coming together with hers, and the pleasure she received from it? Or is the pain of an act so unnatural, it makes God sick when men do it going to come to her mind? You are pleasuring yourself at her expense.

How is she going to feel clean after you have torn her inside in such a way? "Messes" after anal sex are common. Yes, she feels as she should now, a real princess- cherished by her man.

How is she going to feel special after you tore her with each thrust? She may rather you tear some other woman than submit to you, again.

How is she going to sigh in pleasure at the thought of the night you two spent in bed? She'd rather have a headache and ignore you when you are feeling frisky.

As a man living in America today, I can honestly see resentment and bitterness in the attitudes of so many women. And I can trace a lot of it to selfish, uncaring men. Who is your wife to you? Is she your everything on this world? Do you cherish her? Do you long to spend time with her, to talk to her? Is she your best friend? Who is your best friend- can they give you their body like your wife does?

When your wife says she is not comfortable with it, and does not want to try it- honor that. Is it worth the selfish pleasure if your marriage comes to ruin because of the bitterness now in her heart?

If you doubt what the Bible says about heterosexual anal sex, see what it says about people engaging in what is "Natural". There is NOTHING natural about painfully tearing sensitive muscles during intercourse and spilling your seed in one of the filthiest places in the human body.

 

[now faith]

Tundrawolf

Your post was very blunt and graphic,but needed to be written.

I might say it was written very well,only someone with your past experience could convey,how a woman feels during and after this UN natural act.

Men who do this have no idea of the demeaning nature of this act.

I am of the opinion your writing on this should be shared also in the secular world.

I hope God willing it is.

 

[Alithis]

I think he has presented as warped a view as any i have ever seen

 

[now faith]

I think he has presented as warped a view as any i have ever seen

Why?

 

[tundrawolf]

I think he has presented as warped a view as any i have ever seen

How many times have you been sodomized?

 

[tundrawolf]

Why?

Because he wishes to engage in this aberrant behavior without consequence, the same reason non Christians lash out at the Gospel, they want to remain in their sins.

To be honest, I expected this sort of reply from non- Christians attempting to justify their lusts, and refusing to accept the reality of what it does to the vast majority of women out there, but to see it from a "Christian" it really cuts deep. But, the church today has become so watered down and polluted it really doesn't surprise me.

Just saddens me.

 

[now faith]

Because he wishes to engage in this aberrant behavior without consequence, the same reason non Christians lash out at the Gospel, they want to remain in their sins.

To be honest, I expected this sort of reply from non- Christians attempting to justify their lusts, and refusing to accept the reality of what it does to the vast majority of women out there, but to see it from a "Christian" it really cuts deep. But, the church today has become so watered down and polluted it really doesn't surprise me.

Just saddens me.

It is a very difficult subject to address void of emotional responses.

But it should be.

So that the taboo aspect can be brought from exotic thrill seeking,to reality as you have done.

 

[SwordofPeace]

those who have the Holy spirit don't need to debate these things, the angels communicate it mind to mind, telepathicly. they don't need to debate with you what is evil and why it's evil. The devil just wants to talk about ungodly sexual acts as a way to urinate on Christians.