Issues of Messianic Identity

HaNotsri

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There is a serious issue of identity in the Messianic movement today. I am sure I have railed against this before, but I was recently having a PM conversation with another member of our forum regarding issues of identity.

I am a believer in Christ who believes in a distinct seperation between the concept of Israel (the Jewish people) and the concept of the Church (the Body of Christ). With that being said, I believe there are members of Israel incorporated into the Body of Christ...being our Messianic Jewish brothers (or Hebrew-Christian, whatever you want to call yourselves). I trust that those gentiles that have given their lives over to Christ have been "grafted-in" to the commonwealth of Israel (that being the Children of God). However, that doesn't make us Israel in the national sense nor in the sense of obligation to being shomer mitsvos. It means that we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham, children of the Living God, and heirs to everlasting salvation through our knowing the God of Abraham.

The people that comprise the children of Israel today, I believe, have representatives of all sh'vatim of ancient Israel despite their being divided up today primarily as Kohenim, Levi'im, and Yisroelim. I trust (and can find biblical support for the fact) that many members of the ten tribes of the ancient kingdom of Israel reincorporated themselves with Judah and her form of worship after the split between the kingdoms. Whether that was of their own accord (as can be seen in the apocryphal book of Tobit) or as a result of migrations south during the time of the Assyrian invasion. While I believe that many members of the northern kingdom were cast away or transplanted into the Assyrian empire, I believe many members of those sh'vatim retained their identity as they incorporated back into the kingdom of Judah. I have no doubt in my mind that God will awaken those descendents spirits and return them to the Jewish people as He has done in recent centuries (i.e. the Falasha Mura, B'nai Menashe, those in Peru, etc). Furthermore, I feel He will ultimately reconcile the issue of Karaim and Shomronim in the larger Jewish religious community (whether or not He lets them return is not my call). The reason why I brought this portion up, is because I don't believe in the "Ten Lost Tribes" myth that has plagued the Messianic world with two-house doctrines, etc. I think there is enough biblical and extra-biblical evidence to suggest this.

In addition to the above, I would like to define a Jew in the traditional Jewish concept as being that born of a Jewish mother (which given the biblical text in the Torah and in Ezra, I can see why they interpret it as such) or that which has halachically converted to Judaism (an Orthodox conversion). The reason why I am doing this, is to define "Who is a Jew?" as I continue to write, so that people are not mistaken as to where I stand.

In the Messianic movement we have a problem of identity. Up until recently, if I had to choose a Messianic umbrella organization that I would have supported as being theologically in line with what I believe regarding this issue, it would have been that of the UMJC. Unfortunately, in light of recent findings, I cannot agree with them any longer.

This next part, I am not saying to offend or affront any of our Orthodox Jewish members (i.e. Talmidah, TheRabbi, ChavaK, ChazakEmunah, Simchat_Torah, etc), I am merely bringing this up because it is the truth of the situation and it brings me into the larger conversation within the Messianic world. Coming from a background where I pursued an Orthodox conversion to Judaism (though I was never m'giyurred) and living among chassidim and other Jews who were either frum from birth OR ba'alei t'shuvas, I too experienced some identity issues. When one pursues gerus there are certain things that one cannot do because he has yet to be converted (and therefore become a Jew). These items include, but are not limited too: not being able to observe the Sabbath in its entirety (performing one melacha...in my case, I either ripped a piece of toilet paper...though in some cases someone left the cholent pot on too high or gentile cleaning crew from the night before shut off the women's section lights), not laying tefillin (in my case, I could...but not say the brachos), or during yontif taking my meal from kitchen so that I am not served by a Jew, etc. Through my learning, I came to respect and understand these concepts. I understand and respect these things within the context of Orthodox Judaism. Even if I didn't necessarily agree.

The Torah will always be something that is an obligation upon all of Israel to keep whether or not they place their trust in Christ, it never has been an obligation upon gentiles. However, in the context of Messianic gentiles, I believe that they should be able to take upon themselves as little or as much of the yoke of the Torah as they wish (aside from the moral commitments...which are universal) provided that they have an understanding that this is not something that they must do or have that same sense of obligation in the way that Israel does. Gentiles also need to remember, recognize, and respect the importance of Israel's relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam...as the chosen people of God. We need to recognize her role in God's plan of salvation. However, I do not believe that Jews in the Messianic movement should brush aside the desire of Messianic gentiles to observe the Torah if they so wish. Observance of the Torah's commands are blessing and all who wish to partake, should be able too. This tension between Jews and gentiles in the movement causes all sorts of problems including the advent of cultish movements like the two-house movements (which I feel is a reactionary movement to gentiles feeling as if they aren't important AS gentiles so they make this stuff up or stretch biblical exegesis to its limit to suggest they are part of Israel as described above) or in many cases causing gentiles to pursue conversion to Judaism (which shows that they have their faith mixed up in placing Torah observance before Christ).

It seems now that some Messianic organizations are further adding flames to the fire by offering "conversion" programs within Messianic circles. There are so many problems with this concept. Paul was against this. The conversions would be illegitimate and not accepted anywhere within the Jewish world. It would further divide the Messianic and Jewish communities. It would further alienate gentiles followers as second-class citizens. It may further members joining these two-house cults as it would be "easier" than going through any conversion process (which would make them feel less important AS THEY ARE in the Kingdom of God). Furthermore, it's simply not needed. There would be no advantage spiritually to the person converting (Paul attests to do this!).

The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation
 
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Lulav

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There is a serious issue of identity in the Messianic movement today. I am sure I have railed against this before, but I was recently having a PM conversation with another member of our forum regarding issues of identity.

I am a believer in Christ who believes in a distinct seperation between the concept of Israel (the Jewish people) and the concept of the Church (the Body of Christ). With that being said, I believe there are members of Israel incorporated into the Body of Christ...being our Messianic Jewish brothers (or Hebrew-Christian, whatever you want to call yourselves). I trust that those gentiles that have given their lives over to Christ have been "grafted-in" to the commonwealth of Israel (that being the Children of God). However, that doesn't make us Israel in the national sense nor in the sense of obligation to being shomer mitsvos. It means that we are heirs according to the promise of Abraham, children of the Living God, and heirs to everlasting salvation through our knowing the God of Abraham.

The people that comprise the children of Israel today, I believe, have representatives of all sh'vatim of ancient Israel despite their being divided up today primarily as Kohenim, Levi'im, and Yisroelim. I trust (and can find biblical support for the fact) that many members of the ten tribes of the ancient kingdom of Israel reincorporated themselves with Judah and her form of worship after the split between the kingdoms. Whether that was of their own accord (as can be seen in the apocryphal book of Tobit) or as a result of migrations south during the time of the Assyrian invasion. While I believe that many members of the northern kingdom were cast away or transplanted into the Assyrian empire, I believe many members of those sh'vatim retained their identity as they incorporated back into the kingdom of Judah. I have no doubt in my mind that God will awaken those descendents spirits and return them to the Jewish people as He has done in recent centuries (i.e. the Falasha Mura, B'nai Menashe, those in Peru, etc). Furthermore, I feel He will ultimately reconcile the issue of Karaim and Shomronim in the larger Jewish religious community (whether or not He lets them return is not my call). The reason why I brought this portion up, is because I don't believe in the "Ten Lost Tribes" myth that has plagued the Messianic world with two-house doctrines, etc. I think there is enough biblical and extra-biblical evidence to suggest this.

In addition to the above, I would like to define a Jew in the traditional Jewish concept as being that born of a Jewish mother (which given the biblical text in the Torah and in Ezra, I can see why they interpret it as such) or that which has halachically converted to Judaism (an Orthodox conversion). The reason why I am doing this, is to define "Who is a Jew?" as I continue to write, so that people are not mistaken as to where I stand.

In the Messianic movement we have a problem of identity. Up until recently, if I had to choose a Messianic umbrella organization that I would have supported as being theologically in line with what I believe regarding this issue, it would have been that of the UMJC. Unfortunately, in light of recent findings, I cannot agree with them any longer.

This next part, I am not saying to offend or affront any of our Orthodox Jewish members (i.e. Talmidah, TheRabbi, ChavaK, ChazakEmunah, Simchat_Torah, etc), I am merely bringing this up because it is the truth of the situation and it brings me into the larger conversation within the Messianic world. Coming from a background where I pursued an Orthodox conversion to Judaism (though I was never m'giyurred) and living among chassidim and other Jews who were either frum from birth OR ba'alei t'shuvas, I too experienced some identity issues. When one pursues gerus there are certain things that one cannot do because he has yet to be converted (and therefore become a Jew). These items include, but are not limited too: not being able to observe the Sabbath in its entirety (performing one melacha...in my case, I either ripped a piece of toilet paper...though in some cases someone left the cholent pot on too high or gentile cleaning crew from the night before shut off the women's section lights), not laying tefillin (in my case, I could...but not say the brachos), or during yontif taking my meal from kitchen so that I am not served by a Jew, etc. Through my learning, I came to respect and understand these concepts. I understand and respect these things within the context of Orthodox Judaism. Even if I didn't necessarily agree.

The Torah will always be something that is an obligation upon all of Israel to keep whether or not they place their trust in Christ, it never has been an obligation upon gentiles. However, in the context of Messianic gentiles, I believe that they should be able to take upon themselves as little or as much of the yoke of the Torah as they wish (aside from the moral commitments...which are universal) provided that they have an understanding that this is not something that they must do or have that same sense of obligation in the way that Israel does. Gentiles also need to remember, recognize, and respect the importance of Israel's relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam...as the chosen people of God. We need to recognize her role in God's plan of salvtion. However, I do not believe that Jews in the Messianic movement should brush aside the desire of Messianic gentiles to observe the Torah if they so wish. Observance of the Torah's commands are blessing and all who wish to partake, should be able too. This tension between Jews and gentiles in the movement causes all sorts of problems including the advent of cultish movements like the Two-House movements (which I feel is a reactionary movement to gentiles feeling as if they aren't important as gentiles so they make this stuff up or stretch biblical exegesis to its limit) or in many cases causing gentiles to pursue conversion to Judaism (which shows that they have their faith mixed up in placing Torah observance before Christ).

It seems now that some Messianic organizations are further adding flames to the fire by offering "conversion" programs within Messianic circles. The conversions would be illegitimate and not accepted anywhere within the Jewish world. It would further divide the Messianic and Jewish communities. It would further alienate gentiles followers as second-class citizens. It may further members joining these Two-House cults. Furthermore, it's simply not needed. There would be no advantage spiritually to the person converting.

The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes, her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have.

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation
:thumbsup::amen:
 
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christianmomof3

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I think that your particular identity crisis may stem from the Storm Trooper outfit that you are wearing.
I believe the Storm Troopers are the bad guys, aren't they?
They would not be Israeli, would they?
:sorry:

The solution to all of these problems is respect. There is no longer Jew or gentile in Christ, that doesn't mean we don't have our roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

1. Messianic gentiles need to recognize and respect Israel's special role and relationship with God. This includes, her obligation to observe the Torah and understanding that we don't have that obligation (even if we choose to observe it for our own blessing)

2. Messianic Jews need to recognize the gentile desire to observe the Torah in the Messianic world, despite our lack of obligation to do so. It helps us identify in a more biblical way with our God and with the nation of Israel to whom we are grafted. And it allows to live in way that our Savior and Messiah would have.

3. We need to recognize that we are one body with our unique roles in purposes in God's plan for salvation.
I agree that love and respect are important.
We can only be one in Christ.
 
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ContraMundum

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A Hearty, agreeable Amen.

I really feel like I'm not alone when I read this. Thanks HaNostri. Maybe you understand me when I tell you that many, many agree with you in the world.

Anyway- I think there is a deeper issue. I believe our society and culture is suffering from a kind of post-modern identity crisis, and people tend to search high and low for a feeling of self, looking for meaning in a relationship which can be cultural or religious or political. In days gone by people preserved these things amongst themselves and brought their children up to think that their way was the only fitting way. This was both good and bad, IMHO. It was good in that a strong culture and identity gets you through things, but bad because often heavy inculturation or thought programming is toxic. So, imagine what we have now- people seeking meaning to the point of it becoming toxic!

I really am beginning to think Eric Hoffer had some very good points about our world. :D
 
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HaNotsri

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I think that your particular identity crisis may stem from the Storm Trooper outfit that you are wearing.
I believe the Storm Troopers are the bad guys, aren't they?
They would not be Israeli, would they?
:sorry:

LOL...okay I am a clone trooper then. I am fighting for the Republic!

Thanks everyone for the kind words. This really has been on my heart as of late.
 
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GeratTzedek

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I don't mind being the only one to disagree. But then, I'm the only person here wishing for conversion to Judaism.

There have ALWAYS been those gentiles welcomed into the Jewish People, i.e. Ruth. Conversion happens because the GerTzedek truly exists. To deny this option to a Ger is to be irresponsible. A Ger doesn't convert "for salvation," but because there is something within that drives them to say "Do not urge me to leave you... Your people shall be my people."

HaNotsri: What have you to say to me? Are you going to try to convince me that this is all in my imagination? Or that if I just ignore Judaism it will go away? I'm 46. Twice I've tried to leave it behind. It comes back to hit me in the head as if attached to me by a rubber band.

Part of the problem, HaNotsri, is that as you said, the UMJC's conversion process to Judaism would not be recognized by any bet din. This is not true. Our entire conversion process is overseen by a bet din. If you wish to say it is not recognized by most or even the overwhelming majority, fine. But don't think that this isn't done the way it's done in any other Judaism. And please acknowledge that we do have a Rabbinical Council from which a bet din can be formed for all the various reasons.
 
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Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too.

I have my opinion, but I'd love to hear yours. Maybe it's not the same in your area?

BTW- I don't mean nominal Jews, or part-Jews, or "maybe" Jews, I mean people who grew up in an Orthodox home, had a bris, bar-mitzvah etc etc....and I don't mean *all* of them, just most/many of them that convert.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too.

I have my opinion, but I'd love to hear yours. Maybe it's not the same in your area?

BTW- I don't mean nominal Jews, or part-Jews, or "maybe" Jews, I mean people who grew up in an Orthodox home, had a bris, bar-mitzvah etc etc....and I don't mean *all* of them, just most/many of them that convert.
I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joinging the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Why doesn't anyone ask the question: how come people from Orthodox Jewish backgrounds who accept Yeshua as Messiah rarely stay in the MJ movement and always seem to end up in the mainstream churches after a while? That's the general experience of most (actually, all) of the ones I know personally and the story I'm hearing from people abroad too


Psychology. If you are going to make a break it has to be decisive. Given that for an orthodox Jew to become a believer in Jesus has very heavy consequences.
 
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Henaynei

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I don't mind being the only one to disagree. But then, I'm the only person here wishing for conversion to Judaism.

There have ALWAYS been those gentiles welcomed into the Jewish People, i.e. Ruth. Conversion happens because the GerTzedek truly exists. To deny this option to a Ger is to be irresponsible. A Ger doesn't convert "for salvation," but because there is something within that drives them to say "Do not urge me to leave you... Your people shall be my people."

HaNotsri: What have you to say to me? Are you going to try to convince me that this is all in my imagination? Or that if I just ignore Judaism it will go away? I'm 46. Twice I've tried to leave it behind. It comes back to hit me in the head as if attached to me by a rubber band.

Part of the problem, HaNotsri, is that as you said, the UMJC's conversion process to Judaism would not be recognized by any bet din. This is not true. Our entire conversion process is overseen by a bet din. If you wish to say it is not recognized by most or even the overwhelming majority, fine. But don't think that this isn't done the way it's done in any other Judaism. And please acknowledge that we do have a Rabbinical Council from which a bet din can be formed for all the various reasons.
to this I say, Omeyn!:thumbsup:
 
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Henaynei

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I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joining the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.
true, that.... reversing assimilation.... restoring that which was cut off...
 
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ContraMundum

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I guess you just don't know enough yeshua-faith Jews to get a valid sampling. I know quite a few Jews in MJ who have never EVER been members of Christians churches.

Umm..what was their background, Ger? Reform? Conservative? I bet if you asked in detail you might see the same pattern.

Unfortunately, the standard conversion line of gentile churches is, "You are baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now stop doing your Jew stuff." Any Jew who becomes a believer under such well intentioned but disastrous thinking will assimilate. By joinging the MJ movement, they are rediscovering their identity, which the churches tried to kill.

I've never heard that before- except for from pentecostals, of course (perhaps this is why the Messianic movement is Pentecostal in it's beliefs and practices, a kind of substitute???).

The Orthodox Jews I know who have found the truth about Yeshua and the NT have maintained their personal lives as Jews but participate in the life of the Church too. It's not always easy, but then again, is being a Jew ever easy? For example, one chap (who now attends the Coptic Church) got rid of his tallis and tefillin and all of his Hasidic books (but things like the Talmud he gave away to a friend) until he asked his priest about it. The priest called me and I said he should have been encouraged to keep them (not necessarily the books, just the scriptural stuff) and in due course some of the other Jews and some parishners I know all put in to have his things replaced. Another man I know started a once a month fellowship for male Jewish Christians- this is attended by all kinds, MJs, Catholics, clerics and even one seeker. Not all keep the mitzvot, (but then again, they didn't all keep them as Jews either) but the most Orthodox among them are all attending mainstream churches. It's just an observation.
 
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Psychology. If you are going to make a break it has to be decisive. Given that for an orthodox Jew to become a believer in Jesus has very heavy consequences.

True, but there are other reasons too.
For example stability, theology, and spiritual safety. In actuality, I think those things were most important for me and from what I gather the same for my immediate fellow sojourners. It's good to be in a place that isn't going to change overnight- that's what we're used to, I guess. It's also comforting to be in a place that has already worked out what it believes and also has clear signs of continuity from 1st Century Judaism. We've all talked about that together. It's always interesting.

There's always psychology involved in religious and even philosophical and political decisions.

Good call.
 
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SGM4HIM

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This identity crisis of Yeshua followers is not new and Paul deals with this issue and his concerns among 1st century converts in several places.

If conversion by an MJ to Judiaism , becoming a "righteous proselyte" is something that helps one connect and experience richness of Jewish experience, I say fine as long as one feels the New Testament is still an authentic continuation of the Tanach and does not deny the diety of Yeshua. Sadly for some, it is a slippery slope into unbelief in being "complete in Yeshua."
 
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True, but there are other reasons too.
For example stability, theology, and spiritual safety. In actuality, I think those things were most important for me and from what I gather the same for my immediate fellow sojourners. It's good to be in a place that isn't going to change overnight- that's what we're used to, I guess. It's also comforting to be in a place that has already worked out what it believes and also has clear signs of continuity from 1st Century Judaism. We've all talked about that together. It's always interesting.

There's always psychology involved in religious and even philosophical and political decisions.

Good call.
Contra, this was cute. :D The Anglican communion is anything but stable right now. This is not meant to be a "bash the Anglican Church" post -- but only to reply to your comment which inferred that Anglicanism had it together more than MJ. I think at this point in time, you are probably right. However, the direction of movement for MJ is towards greater organization and self understanding. Anglicanism is moving in the opposite direction -- you know I'm speaking such things as the schism with the ECUSA. I pray for your church DAILY.
 
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