Issues of Messianic Identity

[stone]

We must live on different planets!

Why so you say that?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Why so you say that?

Greater organization? In the MessyAntic movement? Ach du lieber! Was fur pferdsheiss ist das?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Umm..what was their background, Ger? Reform? Conservative? I bet if you asked in detail you might see the same pattern.



I've never heard that before- except for from pentecostals, of course (perhaps this is why the Messianic movement is Pentecostal in it's beliefs and practices, a kind of substitute???).

The Orthodox Jews I know who have found the truth about Yeshua and the NT have maintained their personal lives as Jews but participate in the life of the Church too. It's not always easy, but then again, is being a Jew ever easy? For example, one chap (who now attends the Coptic Church) got rid of his tallis and tefillin and all of his Hasidic books (but things like the Talmud he gave away to a friend) until he asked his priest about it. The priest called me and I said he should have been encouraged to keep them (not necessarily the books, just the scriptural stuff) and in due course some of the other Jews and some parishners I know all put in to have his things replaced. Another man I know started a once a month fellowship for male Jewish Christians- this is attended by all kinds, MJs, Catholics, clerics and even one seeker. Not all keep the mitzvot, (but then again, they didn't all keep them as Jews either) but the most Orthodox among them are all attending mainstream churches. It's just an observation.

Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh* Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance.

 

[ContraMundum]

Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

Not in my area. Maybe this is so in your part of the world- which has always had a very Calvinist streak anyway- you know them! If you live in the USA you will always have the problem of the "evangelical liberation army" (which is what I call them) and their manifold self-proclaimed "watchdog" ministries that think the world is Calvinist/Reformed/Baptist and who will never accept ancient ecumenical consensus and instead will fight you every step of the way with their antinomian dogma.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh*

...which is why I remain- to teach and preach a better understanding from within. I get to tell more Christians in a month about the obligations Jews must accept than most Messianics would in their whole lifetime! I'm very fortunate.

Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance.

Well, the Jews better get used to it because the conversion of the Jews to accepting the Messiah Yeshua is prophecied and in the meanwhile the rest of the Church needs to get it's act together and stop stripping away our identity- the Church must prepare to recieve the Jews properly and let the Jewish people remain distinct and observant and also be prepared to turn back the clock on a couple of things too (no way will I go into that here though! You guys are not involved anyway).

Likewise, Gentiles leaving the Church to be more "Jewish" will not help anybody, but rather, seems to be more and more of a stumbling block to Jews. We can tell when it's just not Kosher. Just be yourself, people. This is truth.

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra, this was cute. The Anglican communion is anything but stable right now. This is not meant to be a "bash the Anglican Church" post -- but only to reply to your comment which inferred that Anglicanism had it together more than MJ. I think at this point in time, you are probably right. However, the direction of movement for MJ is towards greater organization and self understanding. Anglicanism is moving in the opposite direction -- you know I'm speaking such things as the schism with the ECUSA. I pray for your church DAILY.

Well, like I always say- if you want to be an Anglican, you need to pick your sides now. Be either liberal, traditionalist or conservative because the split is already happening. Which is precisely why I don't encourage anyone I know to be an Anglican unless they wish to be part of my communion, which is conservative. I'd rather see people go elsewhere otherwise.

On the other hand, you are correct- my comment was relative, but also it was a general observation- most orthodox Jews I know who have converted go to EO or RC churches, with a couple of Anglicans (traditionalists) and one Lutheran. However, we all see these streams of the Church as stable, comparatively speaking. But, then again, nothing earthly ever remains exactly the same, does it?

 

[simchat_torah]

I would agree with Contra... Anglican does have it "put together" more than MJ'ism. Anglicans have a single ruling body, don't have issues with identity, and have common worship practices from one church to the next.

All of which, sadly, can't be said of MJi'sm. MJ's have multiple ruling bodies, even some tiny little cult like sects, all of whom claim to be THE one true Messianic sect. MJ don't know who they are for the most part, their identity crisis is what will destroy them to the core imo.... if it isn't solved fast. Finally, MJ worship is drastically different from congregation to congregation (this can be viewed as a good or bad thing). You could step into one MJ congregation and feel as though you're at a pentacostal revival. The next could feel very Orthodox and deeply rooted in Judaism. But most feel like Baptist churches, with flavors of both Judaism and Charismatic churches.

So, yeah, I'd have to agree with Contra. Despite whatever issues face the governing body of Anglicans, MJ's are in a much worse shape overall.

 

[visionary]

I would agree with Contra... Anglican does have it "put together" more than MJ'ism. Anglicans have a single ruling body, don't have issues with identity, and have common worship practices from one church to the next.

All of which, sadly, can't be said of MJi'sm. MJ's have multiple ruling bodies, even some tiny little cult like sects, all of whom claim to be THE one true Messianic sect. MJ don't know who they are for the most part, their identity crisis is what will destroy them to the core imo.... if it isn't solved fast. Finally, MJ worship is drastically different from congregation to congregation (this can be viewed as a good or bad thing). You could step into one MJ congregation and feel as though you're at a pentacostal revival. The next could feel very Orthodox and deeply rooted in Judaism. But most feel like Baptist churches, with flavors of both Judaism and Charismatic churches.

So, yeah, I'd have to agree with Contra. Despite whatever issues face the governing body of Anglicans, MJ's are in a much worse shape overall.

I agree, so in a back handed way, I agree with you too Contra. Messy Messianics are like two year olds and into everything.

Since God is the Father, He will have to be the guiding force in this matter, all I can say is that I have been lead here in faith and until God has lead me further or somewhere else this is where I stay. I believe others have too experienced this calling and are waiting to see what God will do with the mess. Maybe He needs to call us all out into the desert and organize us into a marching army ready to go forth. There are things that are consistant through out the Messianic and one is the feasts.

 

[ContraMundum]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.

None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

 

[visionary]

I guess the saddest thing of all is that already the MJ movement is divided into denominations with disctinctives- One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical- to name a few. In some cases, these differences are irreconcilable.

God is in charge though- of all His people, all who call on His Name. This is why we should never panic about it.

The Lord will prune, water, and fertilize His plant. We will see the fruit of His labor.

 

[GuardianShua]

Why so you say that?

Hey, I aways have people asking what planet Im from.

 

[GuardianShua]

People are always asking me for charactor references. I just tell them; ask anyone, they will tell you that Im a charactor: All right.

 

[GuardianShua]

Oh come now. Progress has been made within the Catholic church as far as allowing for Jewish practices. Apparently likewise in Anglicanism. But the standard evangelical response is STILL "What are you doing that for? You are free from the Law." The odds are astronomical that if Jew converts to Christianity, that his grandchildren will no longer identify as Jews.

The best thing I know of that is going on INSIDE the church are organizations such as the International Association of Hebrew Catholics. But if you go into their forum and chat with them, their idea of Jewish identity is simple sentimentality, making lighting shabbat candles, and even for those that observe mitzvot, they believe they do so out of choice and not obligation. Sigh* Conversion to Christianity is still the number one source of assimilation and leaving observance.

I was listening to a Catholic tv program yesterday, and they talked about reconciling the different churches to them. It seems that they have a number of P.R. programs going on. What say you?

 

[stone]

Hey, I aways have people asking what planet Im from.

hmm... maybe something to do with stormtroopers?

 

[HaNotsri]

None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

It doesn't matter if it doesn't "fit" them. They are a force to be reckoned with within the Messianic community. The fact of the matter is, it has been the Messianic movement and groups whether they be from any of the groups you mentioned above that has helped influence some of the cults that exist.

 

[ContraMundum]

None of those are MJ denominations. There is the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMJ (the smallest, most fundamentalist one). Just because other groups come along and want to take upon themselves the title of MJ doesn't mean it fits them. If a group that doesn't baptise wants to advertise they are baptists, would it make it true?

You misunderstood- those things I described (One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical) are theological distinctives that various MJ groups have adopted.

I'm not that dumb, you know.

 

[ContraMundum]

I was listening to a Catholic tv program yesterday, and they talked about reconciling the different churches to them. It seems that they have a number of P.R. programs going on. What say you?

The RCC has had "PR" programs (for want of a better word) going on for centuries and centuries. I've been pretty close to some of them on my side of things.

According to them, it's all about fulfilling the mind of Christ that we all be "one" with the same close unity as He and the Father are "one". This of course bears some serious thought too, because everyone must ask themselves whether or not they are doing anything to this end.

 

[visionary]

As long as it is not "one with compromising the truth".

 

[GeratTzedek]

You misunderstood- those things I described (One Law, Two House, Charismatic, Evangelical) are theological distinctives that various MJ groups have adopted.

I'm not that dumb, you know.

An MJ group can be more or less evangelelical, or more or less charismatic. However, One Law and Two House are anti-thetical to MJ's core belief that the union of Jews and gentiles in Yeshua is a union of differentiation. Thus, you will always find those teachings forbidden in MJ denominations.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Contra:

And how many Jews within the Anglican Church have you helped bring into observance? And how many more have simply blown observance off.

Again, conversion to Christianity remains the number one reason for Jews walking away from both People and Covenant. I worked within the church for YEARS trying to make a difference, and I feel like all I have is a very sore and bloody forehead for banging my head against the wall. The ONLY place I see any REAL progress against assimilation is within the Messianic movement.

Does that mean I think Yeshua-faith Jews MUST leave the churches for MJ? NO! Obviously you are doing just fine. I know others doing well. But you are exceptions rather than the rule.