Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[Tishri1]

double post

 

[Tishri1]

[QUOTE Originally Posted by: Tishri1 ]





Jesus followers were called "Christians" first in Antioch...so we are Christians..

Yes Jesus WAS a Jew, till the Jews Killed him, or more correctly the Pharisaical Jews killed him.

connie said

WE ALL KILLED CHRIST BY OUR SINS WHICH HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION,........BUT WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW IS THAT JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE,...........NO MAN TOOK IT FROM HIM.

GOD DID THIS TO SAVE US, THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE.

Connie The quote above is not mine what happened? Did someone misquote me or something?

 

[Tishri1]

George W. Bush and the confusions of Evangelical Zionism
'Born again' president seems to think support for Israel is god's will


Misinterpretation of biblical concepts has dangerous consequences, makes it tougher for Palestinians to reclaim their rights
By Adib F. Farha
Special to The Daily Star
Tuesday, July 20, 2004
Analysis
The rapid rise of Evangelical Zionism has become more alarming since the ascent to power of US President George W. Bush, who appears to firmly believe that his blind support of Israel is a fulfillment of God's will, and with the numerical growth of "Christians for Israel"-type organizations. Bush's support emanates both from a religious foundation as well as from electoral politics. Evangelical Zionists, who fall under several denominations, are estimated to count as many as 40 million Americans. This formidable bloc of voters represents a significant additional incentive to the "born again" president to adopt extreme pro-Israeli positions even when they are contrary to America's national interests.
On the surface, well-meaning, God-fearing Christians, who might not be sufficiently well-versed in the Bible and who might take certain selectively retrieved verses at face value, would be tempted to go along with America's blind support of Israel. Taking the literal interpretation at face value, they believe Israel has a "manifest destiny" to possess Palestine.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=15&article_id=6397

horrible article especially when God said he would bless those that bless Israel, and curse those that curse Israel check this out

http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html
http://www.conceptwizard.com/info.html

 

[Fotios]

horrible article especially when God said he would bless those that bless Israel, and curse those that curse Israel check this out

http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/conflict_2.html
http://www.conceptwizard.com/info.html

It's a beautiful article.
God said that in the Old Testamen..remember The Old Testament/Old Covenant has be replaced by the New...I I don't have to regard that passage.

 

[Tishri1]

It's a beautiful article.
God said that in the Old Testamen..remember The Old Testament/Old Covenant has be replaced by the New...I I don't have to regard that passage.

I don't remember God saying He replaced the Old Testiment...He didn't even call the Bible "the Bible" or "the Old" and "New Testiments" People put those lables there....what Jesus, Paul and Everyone else were all teaching from WAS the Old Testiment, that's all they had when they taught, I don't recall any of them saying "Now when You get this letter just throw out the Old Testimant cus My stuff is sooo much bettter" Or "Now I am preaching you this stuff but just forget what I say cus this book is no good anymore, it can't help you anymore"

PS I'm glad you liked the Video

 

[Tishri1]

Do you like to type in big letters so people can see what you're reading?


We have been through this before, Tishri. It would not have made sense for certain aspects of Judaism to be a standard throughout Europe (and beyond) because much of it was limited to the Promised Land, and the rest was fulfilled in Christ.


I brought that up to show that the Apostles did not think the Jewish calendar, Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etc. as binding upon Christians. Unless they too were antisemitic, which is preposterous considering that many of them were Jews.


And this has nothing to do with the four aspects of Judaism that I listed above.

you show me where Jesus said forget God's calendar we can start with that ok...... and Yes I do prefer the big letters and I want certain words to jump out at you....4D would be awesome!

By the way a study on the Festival called Rosh Ha Shannah will explain most of Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea and Revelations concerning the endtimes not to mention when ever Jesus and the Disciples and Paul talk about the endtimes too....and that Festival is ONLY found on GOD"S Calendar...

 

[Tishri1]

Revelation 12:17 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[GraceInHim]

comment - when the destruction of Jerusalem took place, it was 70 ad.. John's Revelation was not written until 95 ad.. John was caught up in the spirit and seen heaven and the end.. so those who say Israel is over with.. needs to explain the early Prophets about Jesus returning to Mt. Zion.. saying that 70ad was the kingdom of God on earth seems as Full Preterism..

 

[GraceInHim]

early people tried to say Nero was the Anti-Christ.. this is Preterist.. where are the bodies which rose to heaven? This would of been documented, where is the peace on earth? it is our generation that is seeing the fig tree blossom.. do not be fooled by replacement theology..

 

[Edial]

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not... "Chrono" is from the Greek for "time" and the prefix "ana" means "not". When something is anachronistic, it doesn't fit the timeperiod. It would be anachronistic for Christians today to flee the Tribulation from their flat roofs, or to pray that the Tribulation would not occur during the winter when the transportation revolution has eliminated travel difficulties during winter months.

But no one said that it is to be applied today.
Pre-tribulational rapture has not one verse that proves itself. (I went through that in other threads).
Good morning.
Yet rapture is clearly defined in the Scriptures.

And since you see that the "generation" can be interpreted 2 ways (and I can probably prove that when Christ stated that "this generation certainly will not pass ... ", he meant the Pharisaic Jews of all times), what would your other reason be for following preterism?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Scholar in training]

Revelation 12:17 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Keeping the commandments has nothing to do with ritual cleanness, following the Jewish calendar, etc. Do you know what (some have termed to be) the Noachide laws?

 

[Scholar in training]

But no one said that it is to be applied today.

You don't believe that the rapture (as it is defined by many Protestants) will be a future event? If it will be, then what Jesus said about about the "endtimes" and the "tribulation" needs to be taken into consideration.

Pre-tribulational rapture has not one verse that proves itself. (I went through that in other threads).
Good morning.
Yet rapture is clearly defined in the Scriptures.

Good afternoon.

I believe that the rapture mainly refers to the general resurrection, which is yet to occur.

And since you see that the "generation" can be interpreted 2 ways (and I can probably prove that when Christ stated that "this generation certainly will not pass ... ", he meant the Pharisaic Jews of all times), what would your other reason be for following preterism?

Thanks,
Ed

I think that the interpretation I've offered is completely relevant if the "rapture" is a future event.

 

[Scholar in training]

comment - when the destruction of Jerusalem took place, it was 70 ad.. John's Revelation was not written until 95 ad.. John was caught up in the spirit and seen heaven and the end.. so those who say Israel is over with.. needs to explain the early Prophets about Jesus returning to Mt. Zion.. saying that 70ad was the kingdom of God on earth seems as Full Preterism..

early people tried to say Nero was the Anti-Christ.. this is Preterist.. where are the bodies which rose to heaven? This would of been documented, where is the peace on earth? it is our generation that is seeing the fig tree blossom.. do not be fooled by replacement theology..

Please, you are not differenciating between partial preterism and "full" preterism. The former is orthodox, the latter is most certainly not.

As for when Revelation was written, I agree with scholars who date it earlier than in the 90's.

 

[Edial]

You don't believe that the rapture (as it is defined by many Protestants) will be a future event? If it will be, then what Jesus said about about the "endtimes" and the "tribulation" needs to be taken into consideration.

Yes. It will be a future event.
All I said was - But no one said that it is to be applied today.

The "soon" verses that we have are talking about mean "suddenly", not soon as in time.

You want to discuss specific texts?

Good afternoon

I believe that the rapture mainly refers to the general resurrection, which is yet to occur. .

Good afternoon.
Yes. The rapture is associated with the resurrection, but it is not the resurrection.
There are words "after that" in v.17.

1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

I think that the interpretation I've offered is completely relevant if the "rapture" is a future event.

I am not understanding you.
You believe that "generation" means 30-40 years.
I think I can hermeneutically show that it is not so.

What is the point that you are presenting by saying that rapture is in the future?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Scholar in training]

The "soon" verses that we have are talking about mean "suddenly", not soon as in time.

They may mean both.

You want to discuss specific texts?

Yes, that is the best way to determine their meaning.

Good afternoon.

Yes. The rapture is associated with the resurrection, but it is not the resurrection.
There are words "after that" in v.17.

1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ...

The words "after that" (translated by some versions as "then") is only meant to refer to those believers who are still alive at the time of Christ's coming, not to a "taking away" of believers during the "rapture".

I am not understanding you.

You believe that "generation" means 30-40 years.
I think I can hermeneutically show that it is not so.

The word "generation" is indeed a focus. I do believe that, in this case, it means 30-40 years, because of the context in the rest of the chapter, which is quite clearly oriented around Jerusalem as it existed in the first century (i.e. flat roofs, winter months, Sabbath). The time factor here is why I think it is important that you believe the popular interpretation of the rapture and tribulation, because if they are to occur in the future, then so will the rest of what Jesus said about the tribulation in the same chapter.

 

[Edial]

OK. We are out of place in this thread.
Do you want to open a thread concerning preterism?

There is one thing I can assure you though, popular interpretation does not have that certain appeal that it ones had on me.

All interpretations must go through Scriptures.

"Generation" and "soon" can be readily shown to mean not what the preterism teaches.

You want to go for it?

Ed

 

[Scholar in training]

OK. We are out of place in this thread.
Do you want to open a thread concerning preterism?

You can start one in the Eschatology forum if you want to.

There is one thing I can assure you though, popular interpretation does not have that certain appeal that it ones had on me.

That's good to hear.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

Connie The quote above is not mine what happened? Did someone misquote me or something?

Opps,....ok.......I corrected it.......sorry my mistake I presume.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

I don't remember God saying He replaced the Old Testiment...He didn't even call the Bible "the Bible" or "the Old" and "New Testiments" People put those lables there....what Jesus, Paul and Everyone else were all teaching from WAS the Old Testiment, that's all they had when they taught, I don't recall any of them saying "Now when You get this letter just throw out the Old Testimant cus My stuff is sooo much bettter" Or "Now I am preaching you this stuff but just forget what I say cus this book is no good anymore, it can't help you anymore"

PS I'm glad you liked the Video

Praise God Paul didn't even say this!!!

God shows us the end from the beginning which in Genesis is very important to even these last days. We so much, as Paul had, need ~all~ of God's Word, if not man will create idol's in the land (in the heart) of who they believe God really is. Just like the other nations who were in The Promised Land before Israel came. God says "we are" (God as One but three) compared to no one, equal to no one at all - BUT HIMSELF. As the other nations of the world had already done in times past. But with God's Whole Council man is directed aright, but if left aside from His teaching we do certain things in our hearts that is not Godly as God had to correct Israel about. We are no different, so we must hear God's Word.

Notice what God talks about in Isaiah to HEAR and to WARN-----> 'transgressors':
1. See Bel Bowing down - transgressors are no different if they don't HEAR GOD.
2. See Nebo Stooping - transgressors are no different if they don't HEAR GOD.
3. God talks about idols of men
4. God talks about being heavy loaded - burdens

But God says Listen to Me:
1. That I am God who started you to be from the womb.
2. From even your old age I am He,....I will carry you etc.
3. And to remember the things of old,....no one is like me
4. But many have made gods but they can't hear you,....
5. There is false worship going on because it's not who made you, they can't saved you from your troubles

OH WE SURELY CAN HEAR GOD'S HEART ON THESE VERSES, EH?

Isa 46
46:1 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. <---THAT'S ALL OF US WHO HAVE EVER SINNED!!
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
KJV

Matt 13:52
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
KJV

I bless you Tishri1, yes we ever need God's Whole Word even when we are old and weak, but while we are still young we must find 'Rest' in God's Word lest we give our strength to another.

Ps 132
Connie

 

[Jesus Is Real]

comment - when the destruction of Jerusalem took place, it was 70 ad.. John's Revelation was not written until 95 ad.. John was caught up in the spirit and seen heaven and the end.. so those who say Israel is over with.. needs to explain the early Prophets about Jesus returning to Mt. Zion.. saying that 70ad was the kingdom of God on earth seems as Full Preterism..

Ah you wrote out your name,.....precious. I like it.

Good post,....nice insight on the time or 70 AD verses 95 AD.

Just know the Truth,.....and then let HIM--JESUS set you even more free-er!