Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[GraceInHim]

[SIZE=-1]"'I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst, and the nations will know that I am the Eternal Lord,' says the Eternal Lord God, 'when I am set apart in you before their eyes. For I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and I will cause you to begin to walk in My statutes, and you will begin to keep My judgments and will do them. Then you will live in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you will be My people, and I will be your God'"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Ezek. 36:22-27). [/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]". . . the mountain of the house of the Eternal Lord will be established on the top of the mountains, and will become exalted above the hills, and all nations will flow to it. Many people will come and will say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Eternal Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths, for out of Zion the law will go forth and the word of the Eternal Lord will go forth from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will rebuke many people. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up a sword against another nation, neither will they learn war anymore"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Isaiah 2:2-4). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"O God, why have You cast us off forever? Why does Your anger continue to smoke against the people of Your pasture? Remember Your congregation which You purchased long ago, the tribe of Your inheritance which you redeemed. Remember this Mount Zion where You dwelt! Lift up Your feet toward the perpetual desolations. The enemy has destroyed everything in the sanctuary. Your enemies have roared in the midst of Your meeting place. . . . They have said in their hearts, 'Let us destroy them altogether!' . . . O God, how long will the adversary reproach? Will the enemy continue to blaspheme Your name forever? . . . Remember this, O Lord, that the enemy has reproached and that a foolish people has blasphemed Your name! Oh do not deliver the life of Your turtledove to the wild beast and do not forget the life of Your poor one forever. Have respect to the covenant, for the dark places of the land are full of the haunts of cruelty. Oh do not allow the oppressed ones to return ashamed! Let the poor and needy ones praise Your name. Arise, O God, plead Your own cause! Remember the way that the foolish ones reproach You daily. Do not forget the voice of Your enemies for the tumult of those who rise up against You continues to increase"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Psalm 74:1-2, 8a, 18-23). [/SIZE]

 

[GraceInHim]

Has the Eternal Lord forgotten? No! Or is it that His people have forgotten His promises? Moses warned of that. He said:

[SIZE=-1]". . . I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt and turn away from the way which I have commanded you. Then evil will come upon you in the latter days because you will practice evil in the sight of the Eternal, provoking Him to anger through the works of your hands"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Deuteronomy 31:29). [/SIZE]
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The Eternal Himself has said to His people Israel through Moses:

[SIZE=-1]"For the Eternal Lord will judge His people and He will have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone and no one bond or free. . . . Now see that I Myself am He and there is no other God besides Me. I kill and I make alive. I wound and I heal, neither is there anyone who can deliver another out of My hand. The reason is that I have raised My hand and I have said: 'If I whet my glittering sword and My hand takes hold on My judgment, I will begin rendering vengeance on my enemies and I will repay those who have hated Me'"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Deuteronomy 32:36, 39-41). [/SIZE]
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He will keep His promise, in the the words of the New Testament,

[SIZE=-1]". . . when the fullness of the times [is] come"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Galatians 4:4). [/SIZE]
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[KEPLER]

Well, that may be your personal opinion, but the Fact is that G-d gave the land to the Israelites and it's Theirs.

Wrong.

The Covenant made at Moab is a "sub-clause" of the Covenant made at Horeb (Sinai). The Moab Covenant (AKA the Palestinian Covenant is where the land-promises are explicitly made) was a distinct from the Mosaic Covenant made at Horeb, but nevertheless, it was dependent upon Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Covenant.

However, the Old (Mosaic) Covenant has passed away and been replaced by a New Covenant (Jer 31) which was ratified by the Cross of Jesus. We all know that the establishment of a Covenant requires the shedding of blood; it was Jesus' blood that satisfied this requirement.

Hebrews 8 explicitly tells us that the New Covenant has replaced the Old.

End of story; no more land.

K

 

[ethereous]

Ok... You quoted a bunch of passages that neither prove nor disprove your side of the arguement.

Jerusalem was forsaken by God and is a curse to all nations of the earth.

Thus saith the Lord: If ye will not hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened; then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth." - Jeremiah 26:1-3

More information on it can be found here:

http://historicist.com/ojnj/ojnj2.htm

 

[GraceInHim]

[SIZE=-1]"Then the remnant of Jacob will be among the Gentiles, even in the midst of many peoples, like a lion which is among the beasts of the forest and like a young lion which is among flocks of sheep, who, when he passes through them, both treads down and rips into pieces and no one is able to deliver them. Your hand will be lifted up against your adversaries and all of your enemies will be cut off"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Micah 5:7-9). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"This is what will happen in that day. A great panic from the Eternal Lord will be among them[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [the armies of Armageddon who will have gathered to destroy Israel]. Everyone will seize his neighbor's hand and will raise his hand against his neighbor's hand. Judah also will fight at Jerusalem and the wealth of all of the surrounding nations will come to be gathered together, gold, silver and clothing in great abundance" (Zechariah 14:13-14).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"I will whistle for them and I will gather them because I will redeem them. Then they will increase in the way that they once increased. I will have sown them among the peoples [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][the Gentiles] but they will be remembered in far countries. They will continue to live, together with their children, and they will return. I also will return them from the land of Egypt and will gather them from Assyria. I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon and room for them will not be found" (Zechariah 10:8-10). [/SIZE]

 

[Tishri1]

Isaiah 41... 8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend, 9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts, And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you. 10 'Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.' 11 "Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing, and will perish. 12 "You will seek those who quarrel with you, but will not find them, Those who war with you will be as nothing, and non-existent. 13 "For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14 "Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15 "Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains, and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff. 16 "You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away, And the storm will scatter them; But you will rejoice in the LORD, You will glory in the Holy One of Israel. 17 "The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none, And their tongue is parched with thirst; I, the LORD, will answer them Myself, As the God of Israel I will not forsake them. 18 "I will open rivers on the bare heights, And springs in the midst of the valleys; I will make the wilderness a pool of water, And the dry land fountains of water. 19 "I will put the cedar in the wilderness, The acacia, and the myrtle, and the olive tree; I will place the juniper in the desert, Together with the box tree and the cypress, 20 That they may see and recognize, And consider and gain insight as well, That the hand of the LORD has done this, And the Holy One of Israel has created it. 21 ...

 

[GraceInHim]

[SIZE=-1]". . . I Will destroy your cities, and I will destroy your adversaries. Furthermore in anger and in fury I will bring vengeance upon the Gentiles because they did not listen[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [to My call]" (Mic. 5:14b-15, 13b-14 in Heb.). [/SIZE]

Jesus said.. if you have a beam in your eye, why look at a speck in another's eye?? he said... do not judge, or you will.. he said.. if you take a slap, receive another.. gee.. wonder if God will forget the murders of the Jews in 70ad.. and all the years following..

 

[jgonz]

Kepler, you don't believe in G-d honoring His promises to His people? There are countless prophecies about G-d's people being brought back to the Land.

The old covenant has not passed away~ Jesus said it Himself: Matt.5: 17- 19 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[ethereous]

Take note that the word Gentiles is a misnomer. The word gentile is translated from the Greek word ethnos (goy in Hebrew) or ethne (goyim Hebrew) being plural. Simply meaning nation or nations. It is a generic term.

I highly recommend reading The Mystery of the Gentiles: Who are they and where are they now?

 

[GraceInHim]

This judgment which the Eternal would bring upon his erring people would ruin their efforts to remain farmers.

[SIZE=-1]"You will sow but you will not reap. You will tread the olives but you will not get to anoint yourself with oil.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [You will tend the vines] but you will not get to drink the wine because you keep the statues of Omri and all of the works of the house of Ahab and in their counsels you continue to walk. [I will do this] in order to make you to be an astonishment and the residents of it into a hissing, for the reproach of my people you will bear" (Mic 6:15-16).[/SIZE]

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[Oblio]

Kepler, you don't believe in G-d honoring His promises to His people?

I wonder if he has stopped beating his wife too ?


What he (and I and many, many other Christians) disagrees with is who are God's people ?

 

[Tishri1]

Hebrews 8 explicitly tells us that the New Covenant has replaced the Old.



K

no it doesn't....read it with out the words that were added by the publisher....read the whole book in context...read ALL the miriads of Old Testiment scriptures that say otherwise....read Yeshua's words:

Matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Oblio]

read it with out the words that were added by the publisher

The publisher ? You mean the Church ??

 

[GraceInHim]

[SIZE=-1]"Now many nations also are gathered against you, that are saying, `Let her be defiled and let out eyes look upon Zion!' But they do not know the thoughts of the Eternal Lord. Neither do they understand His counsel, because He will gather them like threshing sheaves on the threshing floor. `Rise up and thresh, Oh daughter of Zion because I will make your horn like iron and I will make your hoofs like brass, and you will beat many peoples into pieces, for I will consecrate their spoils to the Eternal Lord and their wealth to the Lord of the entire earth"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (Mic. 4:11-13). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Announce this among the Gentiles: `Prepare for war. Stir up the warlike men; Let all of the men of war draw near and come up. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weak one say: `I am a strong, warlike man!' Come to help; yes, come, all of you nations from all around and gather yourselves together. There lead your mighty warriors, Oh Eternal Lord! Let the nations be stirred up and let them come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][i.e., "The Eternal Lord will judge!], for there I will sit to judge all of the Gentiles from all around. Thrust in the sickle because the harvest is ripe. Come, tread [the Lord's wine press] because the wine press is full. The wine vats overflow because their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes will be in the valley of decision [i.e., where their fate will be decided by the Eternal Lord, their judge]. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Now learn a parable about the fig tree. When its branch is yet tender and it is putting forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you will see all of these things, you will know that it is near, even at the doors. Truly I say to you, `This race[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [of Israel] will not pass away until all of these things are fulfilled. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no man knows, no, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father alone" (Matt. 24:32-36).[/SIZE]
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What should be my reaction to Micah's message? Surely the tragic events which yet face the nation of Israel before their hope of the centuries is fulfilled should stir one's heart to a careful investigation of his or her relationship to the Lord and to the One who will gather Israel into His earthly kingdom. Surely Yeshua's words in Matthew 10:28-30 give the one who is longing for the answer to this question.

[SIZE=-1]"Come to Me, all of you who are laboring and are heavy laden, for I will give rest to you. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for My yoke is easy and My burden is light."[/SIZE]
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[Tishri1]

The publisher ? You mean the Church ??

they were not written by the Author they were ADDED by someone other than the Author Himself

 

[Tishri1]

bravo Gracie, for all your scriptures

if there is overwhelming proof that the enemy is gathering AGAINST Israel as a nation in these last days, then we should be careful to note WHICH SIDE WE ARE ON....God's side or the enemy's side.....God's side is not going to lose

 

[GraceInHim]

bravo Gracie, for all your scriptures

if there is overwhelming proof that the enemy is gathering AGAINST Israel as a nation in these last days, then we should be careful to note WHICH SIDE WE ARE ON....God's side or the enemy's side.....God's side is not going to lose

God's.. follow him all the way..

 

[ethereous]

I wonder if he has stopped beating his wife too ?


What he (and I and many, many other Christians) disagrees with is who are God's people ?

Exactly.

There are lots of clues in the Bible on determining who is Israel and who is not.

Here are a few.

David had the promise of a future appointed place for Israel. (2 Samuel 7: 10)

This appointed place was to be in the Isles afar off from Palestine. (Isaiah 41: 1 Jeremiah 31: 10)

Israel’s name was to be “Great”. (Genesis 12: 2)

Israel was to be exceedingly fruitful. (Genesis 28: 14, Genesis 49: 22-26, Numbers 23: 10, Isaiah 27: 6, Hosea 1: 10, Zechariah 10: 8)

Israel was to spread abroad to the west, east, north and south. (Genesis 28: 14, Isaiah 43: 5-6)

Israel was to have a new home. (2 Samuel 7: 10, 1 Chronicles 17: 9)

Israel’s home north west of Palestine. (Isaiah 49: 12, Jeremiah 3: 18)

Israel to be undefeatable, defended by God. (Numbers 24: 8, 9, Isaiah 54: 15-17, Micah 5: 8)

Israel to have control of the seas and be the Great Naval Power of the World. (Numbers 24: 7, Deuteronomy 33: 19, Psalm 89: 25, Isaiah 60: 5)

Israel to be envied and feared by all nations. (Deuteronomy 2: 25 & 4: 8 28:10 Isaiah 43: 4 & 60: 10, 12, Micah 7: 16-17, Jeremiah 33: 9)

Israel to lose a colony, and then increase demanding more room. (Isaiah 49: 20)

Israel to lend to other nations, borrowing from none. (Deuteronomy 15: 6 & 28: 12)

Israel to reign over many nations, be reigned over by none. (Deuteronomy 15: 6)

Israel was to have a new name. 9Isaiah 62: 2 & 65: 1-15, Hosea 2: 17)

Israel was to have a new religion. (Jeremiah 31: 34-34, Hebrew 8: 13 & 9: 17 show the New Covenant brought in, Luke 1: 77, Galatians 3: 13, John 11; 49-52)

Israel was to lose all trace of her linage. (Hosea 2: 6, Hosea 1: 9-10, Hosea 2: 17, Isaiah 42: 16)

Israel was to be a people glorying in Christ. (Isaiah 41: 16, Acts 5: 31, Romans 11: 26, Luke 2: 32

Israel was to carry the Gospel to the entire world. (Genesis 28: 14, Isaiah 43: 21, Micah 5: 7, Witnesses: Isaiah 43: 10-12, not church, see verse 14)

Israel is to punish Edom in the last days. (Ezekiel 25: 14, Obadiah 18, Isaiah 11: 14, Amos 9: 12)

Israel must be as sand for multitudes. (Hosea 1: 10)

Israel was to retain the Israel system of weights and measures. (Leviticus 19: 36, 37)

Israel to have immense Colonies. (Isaiah 54: 3)

Israel the wealthiest nation. (Deuteronomy 8: 18, Isaiah 60: 11)

The national heraldry must be the Lion and the Unicorn. (Numbers 24: 8, 9)

 

[GraceInHim]

Micah places his discussion of that trial in such a way that it is evident that this, too, is one of the great events which must precede the establishment of Israel's kingdom in old Zion under the Messiah. The New Testament book of Matthew has an extensive section describing graphically this judgment of living Israel in 25:14-30. Yeshua told a parable about His own extended time away from Israel and of the judgment which would take place upon His return.

[SIZE=-1]"For it [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][the kingdom of heaven] is like a man traveling into a far country. He called His own servants and gave his goods to them. And to the one He gave five talents, to another He gave two and to another He gave one, to each man according to his own ability, and He went off on his way. Then the one who had received the five talents went and he traded with them and made another five talents. In the same way the one who had received the two [talents], he also gained two more. But the one who had received one [talent] went and he dug in the earth and buried his Lord's money. After a long time the Lord of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. Then the one who had received five talents brought the other five talents saying, `Lord, You gave to me five talents. See, I have gained five talents more besides them.' His Lord said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things. I will make you a ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your Lord.' The one who had received two talents also came and said, `Lord, you gave to me two talents. See, I have gained two other talents besides them.' His Lord said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; You have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of Your Lord. Then the one who had received the one talent came and he said, `Lord, I knew that you were a hard man, reaping where you had not sown, and gathering where you have not spread abroad, and I was afraid and I went and I hid Your talent in the earth. See, You have that which is Yours.' His Lord answered and said to him, `Wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and that I gather where I have not spread abroad. Therefore you should have put my money to the money changers. Then by the time of my coming I would have received my own [talent] with interest. Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten talents because to every one who has shall be given, and he will have abundance. But from him who has not, even that which he has will be taken away. And throw the unprofitable servant into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt. 25:14-30). [/SIZE]
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This parable which speaks of Israel while her Lord is far away is immediately followed by teaching concerning the judgment of the Gentiles and the separation of the wicked from the righteous before the entry of the righteous into the great Messianic kingdom (Matt. 25:31-45).

 

[ethereous]

You better be very careful which side you are on. For God is not forgiving of traitors and those who twist his Word. The enemies of Israel have been leveling their attacks against them since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The largest blow was the manipulation of Scripture with the Masoretic Texts. Ofcourse who is suprised that so many of you do not see the truth. There will only be 144,000 elect of Israel at the end time. So you can continue to filibuster with long passages that have no bearing to the arguement at hand or you could read God's word and stop taking him for a liar because it says what it says whether you believe it or not.