Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[Edial]

If we reject Him, I agree (but Christians by definition do not reject Christ), but Jews are not saved because they are Jews, they are saved if they become a Christian just like everyone else. At that time they are no longer Jews (except ethnically, which is meaningless), but Christians.

It is simple enough, yet many that call themselves believers fight being called Christians.
It is alarming.
AC 11:25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
AC 26:29 Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

when I say Messianic Jews that's the same as saying Christian I forgot to clarify that

Apostle Paul, the "Pharisee of the Pharisees", called himself a Christian.

He did not need to clarify.

Thanks
Ed

 

[Edial]

anyone live on the east coast (USA).. me NH.. going to get 12 inches of snow on sunday.. philly, dc, baltimore about 11" .. wooohoooo

Same in New York.

Ed

 

[Tishri1]

It is simple enough, yet many that call themselves believers fight being called Christians.
It is alarming.
AC 11:25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.


AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
AC 26:29 Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Thanks,
Ed

seems it was the Pagan Gentiles who first coined the phrase not Yeshua himself....not that I personally feel indifferent because of this fact, but Messianic Jews who were being persecuted thru the ages might (I personally don't know of many who don't also call themselves Christian )

The name was evidently given to the followers of Christ by the Gentiles to distinguish them from the Jews since they were Greeks, not Grecian Jews. The Jews would not call them Christians because of their own use of Xristov the Messiah. The Jews termed them Galileans or Nazarenes. The followers of Christ called themselves disciples (learners), believers, brethren, saints, those of the Way. The three uses of Christian in the N.T. are from the heathen standpoint (here), Acts 26:28 (a term of contempt in the mouth of Agrippa), and 1 Peter 4:16 (persecution from the Roman government). It is a clear distinction from both Jews and Gentiles and it is not strange that it came into use first here in Antioch when the large Greek church gave occasion for it.
Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

 

[Tishri1]

EXCUSE ME....?

You're quoting a HERETIC to support your position?

John W. Ritenbaugh was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, a sect that until the mid-1990s denied the Trinity. He and his wife left the WCoG when the WCoG changed its doctrinal stance and accepted the Nicene formula of the Trinity, ca. 1995.

.....quote]

Are you making fun out of me
like I said before...

Forerunner Commentary ,
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown,
John Wesley's Notes ,
Matthew Henry ,
People's Commentary (NT) ,
Robertson's Word Pictures (NT) ,
Scofield,
The websight was one that had many commentaries and this one was among them...are all these people heritics as you say

the quote you are poking fun about came from the Forerunner Commentary.....the one I recently quoted from was Robertson's Word Pictures......Is BOBBY a heretic too

 

[Tishri1]

Apostle Paul, the "Pharisee of the Pharisees", called himself a Christian.

He did not need to clarify.

Thanks
Ed

Ed using the word Messianic is just like using the word Baptist, Lutheren, or Catholic....when you use the word Messianic you are describing your subject, giving more details about them; that's all

 

[Scholar in training]

It is simple enough, yet many that call themselves believers fight being called Christians.
It is alarming.
AC 11:25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
AC 26:29 Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Thanks,
Ed

Actually, "Christian" was first used (in an intentionally derisive tone) by the Romans in reference to followers of The Way. It meant that they were "little Christs". The word does not carry this connotation today, though, and no Christian should be ashamed to be called a "little Christ". But I too have noticed that Messianics intentionally avoid calling themselves Christians. Several Messianic "Christians" on this forum have said that they do not want to be associated with that term, that they are not Christians. Not all Messianics do this, but a lot of them do.

 

[Tishri1]

Actually, "Christian" was first used (in an intentionally derisive tone) by the Romans in reference to followers of The Way. It meant that they were "little Christs". The word does not carry this connotation today, though, and no Christian should be ashamed to be called a "little Christ". But I too have noticed that Messianics intentionally avoid calling themselves Christians. Several Messianic "Christians" on this forum have said that they do not want to be associated with that term, that they are not Christians. Not all Messianics do this, but a lot of them do.

Thanks for posting that Scholar, I know of a few here who are not identifying with the term Christian too and I know why...

For everyone here,

It is not out of any animosity toward you or I or anyone here, it is a docturnal issue that has not been addressed as much as the docturnal issues between other Christian Denominations ...
some examples:
speaking in tongues
statues
dancing
Christian Rock
Mary

these are all hot issues that the Church as a whole has hashed out and come to terms with....whether we approve or not we still feel we are called to one body, the body of Christ


Those few Messianic (it really is a much smaller number than people think),who you know that have issues they struggle with; have not had as much time to come to terms with them, and that has caused them to separate from identifying themselves as Christians, BUT they are still apart of the Body as believers in Yeshua/Jesus and I believe we will all be one very soon


Everyone has something they wish was different about the Church and when Yeshua comes back His will will be done down here....It may be exactly the way WE knew he would do it... or it may not...

We must be patient with those who are struggling to figure that out, as well as loving toward those who have it all figured out (and it turns out that it is not the way WE have it all figured out)

Just know that the Messianics as a whole feel very much apart of the Body and are only called Messianic the same way a Penticostal, and a 2nd Baptist are called thus

 

[Scholar in training]

For everyone here,

It is not out of any animosity toward you or I or anyone here, it is a docturnal issue that has not been addressed as much as the docturnal issues between other Christian Denominations ...
some examples:
speaking in tongues
statues
dancing
Christian Rock
Mary

Honestly, Tishri, I don't think that these are the hotest issues in Christianity. But I will address them for conversation and because you see them as important:

If you are referring mainly to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement when you refer to speaking in tongues, then be aware that there are people out there who have spoken against it. Dancing and Christian rock seem like trivial things to have a dispute over, unless they specifically detract from worship. The only kind of cases that I can think of are songs that call God your "buddy" or "friend", when "friend" as it is used in the Bible really means something more along the lines of servant, and was never used in the casual sense you see it used today. I won't get into a discussion on St. Mary here, but suffice it to say that no one is "worshipping" her aside from maybe a few animists in South America.

Those few Messianic (it really is a much smaller number than people think),who you know that have issues they struggle with;

I am inclined to say that the number is greater than "a few". I know that there have been disputes on the Messianic congregational forum before between "real" Messianics and those Messianics who will identify as Christian; and at one time there were several Messianics who denied being Trinitarian. Apparently they were so unaware of their surroundings that they wore a faith icon affirming that they held orthodox Trinitarian beliefs.

have not had as much time to come to terms with them, and that has caused them to separate from identifying themselves as Christians

I don't know if Christian rock and dancing are major issues for most Messianics....

BUT they are still apart of the Body as believers in Yeshua/Jesus and I believe we will all be one very soon

This depends on what you mean by "Body". But I won't get into that here.

Everyone has something they wish was different about the Church

Not necessarily.

We must be patient with those who are struggling to figure that out, as well as loving toward those who have it all figured out (and it turns out that it is not the way WE have it all figured out)

We should be patient, but not to the point of scandal or ridicule.

Just know that the Messianics as a whole feel very much apart of the Body and are only called Messianic the same way a Penticostal, and a 2nd Baptist are called thus

Pentecostals and Baptists may identify as Pentecostals and Baptists respectively, but they don't try to avoid being identified as a Christian. This is the difference between them and Messianics.

 

[visionary]

You are right, the things that whould be important are not issues presented so far but the attitude in which it is presented, as with any subject, the more someone is sure they the way that they think is the absolute, the more that they are intolerant of others.

It is more important to work in the spirit of truth, than forcing truth down someone's throat verablly or otherwise. Truth does not need defending. She has an advocate bigger than any of us. He will defend the truth far better than any of us can.

Flavors of the believers has become more bountiful than Baskin Robbin's choices. There are basic foundations that all followers should abide by, walking in the spirit of love, speaking truth without compromise, standing strong on the Word of God over any traditions, and praying without ceasing, ever giving ear to the Holy Spirit whisperings. No one is on the same page of learning and walking in the spirit of truth and righteousness. The Lord is leading and guiding everyone for their own walk with the Lord. They will also be judged by the Lord for their obedience and not by the what the Lord has taught someone else in truth. We are all here to be witnesses of His truth. For His truth has His signature upon it and we are to gather them up like fine rare gems. God never promised that they would only come from one man or one institution. He did however, promise that they would come from Him.

Messianics are a gathering here in the last days, that seeks to find the roots of this faith, some have gone to the days before the gentiles called them Christians. Messianics come in all favors usually manifesting some of the understanding from which they have gathered in their spiritual walks. Some of this will be excess baggage that the Lord will work in their hearts to let go of. Some of it will shine forth as gold and be shared with others as a witness of a wonderful find, like a pearl of great price. So while you may point and find flaws, it doesn't change the heart of the movement. A movement grown first out of a Rabbi's understanding of the Messiah, and the return to hebrew roots. Many gentiles rejoiced and have been grafted into this hebrew root faith. They may have brought what they had with them, but the spirit of rejoicing in the return to Jerusalem, the return to foundation of faith, the return to texts in their original setting, make this movement an exciting adventure in the truths in their proper setting.

We are all learning, and we are all wanting to be prepared to meet the Lord. We know that in the summary of all faiths is the personal relationship with God which is the true key that unlocks the mystery of godliness. I would not want you to trip and fall because of some term or definition that didn't work with your theology, I pray that you continue to grow closer to the Lord, have great inspirations as you read His Word, the courage to walk alone if necessary to obey the Lord, and the heart of love for your fellow man that the Lord has. May you be given the gift of tolerance, long suffering, and most of all patience.

 

[Edial]

Thanks for posting that Scholar, I know of a few here who are not identifying with the term Christian too and I know why...

For everyone here,

It is not out of any animosity toward you or I or anyone here, it is a docturnal issue that has not been addressed as much as the docturnal issues between other Christian Denominations ...
some examples:
speaking in tongues
statues
dancing
Christian Rock
Mary

these are all hot issues that the Church as a whole has hashed out and come to terms with....whether we approve or not we still feel we are called to one body, the body of Christ


Those few Messianic (it really is a much smaller number than people think),who you know that have issues they struggle with; have not had as much time to come to terms with them, and that has caused them to separate from identifying themselves as Christians, BUT they are still apart of the Body as believers in Yeshua/Jesus and I believe we will all be one very soon


Everyone has something they wish was different about the Church and when Yeshua comes back His will will be done down here....It may be exactly the way WE knew he would do it... or it may not...

We must be patient with those who are struggling to figure that out, as well as loving toward those who have it all figured out (and it turns out that it is not the way WE have it all figured out)

Just know that the Messianics as a whole feel very much apart of the Body and are only called Messianic the same way a Penticostal, and a 2nd Baptist are called thus

The only denominations that I am aware of that have members that avoid calling themselves Christians are the Catholics and the Messianics.
Catholics also came from a pagan background.

The issue is deeper than that.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Tishri1]

Honestly, Tishri, I don't think that these are the hotest issues in Christianity. But I will address them for conversation and because you see them as important:

If you are referring mainly to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement when you refer to speaking in tongues, then be aware that there are people out there who have spoken against it. Dancing and Christian rock seem like trivial things to have a dispute over, unless they specifically detract from worship. The only kind of cases that I can think of are songs that call God your "buddy" or "friend", when "friend" as it is used in the Bible really means something more along the lines of servant, and was never used in the casual sense you see it used today. I won't get into a discussion on St. Mary here, but suffice it to say that no one is "worshipping" her aside from maybe a few animists in South America.


I am inclined to say that the number is greater than "a few". I know that there have been disputes on the Messianic congregational forum before between "real" Messianics and those Messianics who will identify as Christian; and at one time there were several Messianics who denied being Trinitarian. Apparently they were so unaware of their surroundings that they wore a faith icon affirming that they held orthodox Trinitarian beliefs.


I don't know if Christian rock and dancing are major issues for most Messianics....


This depends on what you mean by "Body". But I won't get into that here.


Not necessarily.


We should be patient, but not to the point of scandal or ridicule.


Pentecostals and Baptists may identify as Pentecostals and Baptists respectively, but they don't try to avoid being identified as a Christian. This is the difference between them and Messianics.

sorry but you missed the whole heart of what I posted.....Ripping apart my post and debating the points in it totally takes the Spirit in which I wrote it away....all those issues were there as examples only not an exhaustive list and certainly not the subject of my post

If the only contact you have with Messianics is on the Web then you are missing out on a wonder experience....Messianics love the Body of Messiah and are NOT against the Church!That kind of talk can only lead to further separation of The Body

 

[Tishri1]

Catholics also came from a pagan background.

ALSO? could you give PROOF that Messianics are PAGAN?

pa·gan
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

[Middle English, from Late Latin country-dweller, civilian, from , country, rural district. See pag- in Indo-European Roots.]
.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Pagan
adj : not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam [syn: heathen, heathenish, ethnic] n : a person who does not acknowledge your God [syn: heathen, gentile, infidel]

he·don·ism
n.

1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
2. Philosophy. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
3. Psychology. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

[Greek pleasure; see in Indo-European Roots + -ism.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Hedonist
n : someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures [syn: pleasure seeker]

Ne·o-Pa·gan·ism
n. Any of various religious movements arising chiefly in the United Kingdom and the United States in the late 20th century that combine worship of pagan nature deities, particularly of the earth, with benign witchcraft.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Neo-Paganism
Neopaganism Revived or new paganism.

exuse me? And would that be me? I don't think so!

 

[Edial]

seems it was the Pagan Gentiles who first coined the phrase not Yeshua himself....not that I personally feel indifferent because of this fact, but Messianic Jews who were being persecuted thru the ages might (I personally don't know of many who don't also call themselves Christian )

1. If one is born-again, he should be able to distinguish between "Christians" and Christians. So, the persecution argument does not apply.
2. The born-again Christian Jews should also realize that because of their forefathers' blunt rejection of the Jewish Messiah the persecution was allowed, since God temporarily withdrew his hand.
3. It can also be as simple as plain-old nationalistic issue - pride. Nothing deep.
I know nationalism. I am an Armenian. The first Christian country in the world is Armenia (301 AD).
But because of their nationalism (pride) they are in the spiritual pits right now.

The name was evidently given to the followers of Christ by the Gentiles to distinguish them from the Jews since they were Greeks, not Grecian Jews. The Jews would not call them Christians because of their own use of Xristov the Messiah. The Jews termed them Galileans or Nazarenes. The followers of Christ called themselves disciples (learners), believers, brethren, saints, those of the Way. The three uses of Christian in the N.T. are from the heathen standpoint (here), Acts 26:28 (a term of contempt in the mouth of Agrippa), and 1 Peter 4:16 (persecution from the Roman government). It is a clear distinction from both Jews and Gentiles and it is not strange that it came into use first here in Antioch when the large Greek church gave occasion for it.
Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

Robertson's Word Pictures presents a historical view. It does not address the fact that history is shaped by God.

Therefore I present the Scriptural picture.

Below, Apostle Paul (the former Pharisee and a law-abiding Jew) freely associates himself with being a Christian.

AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
AC 26:29 Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Below, ALL believers are called Christians and are told not to be ashamed to bear that name.

1PE 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sun2]

When did we get derailed?

 

[Edial]

You are right, the things that whould be important are not issues presented so far but the attitude in which it is presented, as with any subject, the more someone is sure they the way that they think is the absolute, the more that they are intolerant of others.

I do not agree with this definition.
Intolerance towards opponents can be associated with any subject (as you noted), except the subject of the Scriptural truth.
Now I do not claim to really know the Scriptures, that is why I quote the references.
It is open to all to respond.

And if one does see the truth as defined in the Scriptures, one cannot be intolerant towards the opponents.
Otherwise he does not see the truth.

It is more important to work in the spirit of truth, than forcing truth down someone's throat verablly or otherwise.

Anyone's (including my) approach of presentation can be improved.
However, the direct approach is easier to transmit and it is a preferred approach, as far as I see it in the Scriptures.

Also, the Spirit of truth is referred to the Holy Spirit. If you think that He is absent in what I say concerning the Messianic topic - it is your opinion. I cannot objectively prove that you are wrong. (Yet, I am not saying you are correct).

Truth does not need defending. She has an advocate bigger than any of us. He will defend the truth far better than any of us can.

I do not agree with your first sentence.
Christ told us to defend the truth.

PHP 1:7 ... for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me.

"Defend", is the Greek word apologia.

Flavors of the believers has become more bountiful than Baskin Robbin's choices.
There are basic foundations that all followers should abide by, walking in the spirit of love, speaking truth without compromise, standing strong on the Word of God over any traditions, and praying without ceasing, ever giving ear to the Holy Spirit whisperings. No one is on the same page of learning and walking in the spirit of truth and righteousness. The Lord is leading and guiding everyone for their own walk with the Lord..

OK.

They will also be judged by the Lord for their obedience and not by the what the Lord has taught someone else in truth. We are all here to be witnesses of His truth.

Yes. He is the one who ultimately judges.
Yet he also told us to judge each other.

1CO 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.

For His truth has His signature upon it and we are to gather them up like fine rare gems. God never promised that they would only come from one man or one institution. He did however, promise that they would come from Him.

Agree.

Messianics are a gathering here in the last days, that seeks to find the roots of this faith, some have gone to the days before the gentiles called them Christians.

Apostle Peter called all Christians.
(You are appealing to history).

1PE 4:16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

You are presenting a historical argument.
Since God shapes history, His word trumps it.

Messianics come in all favors usually manifesting some of the understanding from which they have gathered in their spiritual walks. Some of this will be excess baggage that the Lord will work in their hearts to let go of. Some of it will shine forth as gold and be shared with others as a witness of a wonderful find, like a pearl of great price..

OK.

So while you may point and find flaws, it doesn't change the heart of the movement. A movement grown first out of a Rabbi's understanding of the Messiah, and the return to hebrew roots...

Rabbi's understanding of the Messiah?
Some might consider it to be a nationalistic argument.

God chose Israel because they cried out to him due to slavery in Egypt. He saved them because of His mercy.
They remembered about God because of Abraham's relationship with God, the forefather of the Semites.
And because of the seed that was planted in Israel due to exodus, Christ was born a Jew - to continue with the salvation.

That is why the gospel is to be presented to the Jews first. Because it was shown to them first at the desert.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Also, God developed a personal relationship with Israel when He found her as a baby, naked and bleeding (Ez.16).
But there is no one else in this world that he loves more than His Son.
And through Him (regardless of the nationality) all must go to the Father.

RO 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, ...

God came to save ALL who would call on the name of Jesus. It is the master plan, as shown in the Scriptures.

When Christ came, he came for the Israel - that's why only 12 were given to him.

But when He got all the authority - the master plan is revealed.

Many gentiles rejoiced and have been grafted into this hebrew root faith. They may have brought what they had with them, but the spirit of rejoicing in the return to Jerusalem, the return to foundation of faith, the return to texts in their original setting, make this movement an exciting adventure in the truths in their proper setting. ...

The gentiles follow the Christ who was born a Jew. They humbled themselves (or I should say, God humbled them). Some still would not become Christians because they hate the Jews.

The Messianics are looking (for most parts) the old personal relation with God. Nothing wrong with that. They are entitled.
But the plan is different.

We are all learning, and we are all wanting to be prepared to meet the Lord. We know that in the summary of all faiths is the personal relationship with God which is the true key that unlocks the mystery of godliness....

OK.

I would not want you to trip and fall because of some term or definition that didn't work with your theology,...

I presented that the Apostles (the Jews) associated themselves with Christians. Peter directly called all Christians and told them to be proud of bearing that name.

My point is that many Messianics avoid that name.

I pray that you continue to grow closer to the Lord, have great inspirations as you read His Word, the courage to walk alone if necessary to obey the Lord, and the heart of love for your fellow man that the Lord has. May you be given the gift of tolerance, long suffering, and most of all patience.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

When did we get derailed?

. We took the scenic route.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[visionary]

Ed

...until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

The only denominations that I am aware of that have members that avoid calling themselves Christians are the Catholics and the Messianics.
Catholics also came from a pagan background.

The issue is deeper than that.

Thanks,
Ed

Knownledge of this kind puffs up.

Are you praying?

 

[Jesus Is Real]

1. If one is born-again, he should be able to distinguish between "Christians" and Christians. So, the persecution argument does not apply.
2. The born-again Christian Jews should also realize that because of their forefathers' blunt rejection of the Jewish Messiah the persecution was allowed, since God temporarily withdrew his hand.
3. It can also be as simple as plain-old nationalistic issue - pride. Nothing deep.
I know nationalism. I am an Armenian. The first Christian country in the world is Armenia (301 AD).
But because of their nationalism (pride) they are in the spiritual pits right now.


Robertson's Word Pictures presents a historical view. It does not address the fact that history is shaped by God.

Therefore I present the Scriptural picture.

Below, Apostle Paul (the former Pharisee and a law-abiding Jew) freely associates himself with being a Christian.

AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
AC 26:29 Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

Below, ALL believers are called Christians and are told not to be ashamed to bear that name.

1PE 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed,

The spirit of what you are trying to make in thinking that ANY Messianics MUST call themselves Christian's is again: "BREAKING THE PATTERN OF GOD." It's actually a spirit of control, even when I do this - God is no respector of persons.

When ever Moses, a leader of the people - just like you seem to believe you are - I have no problems with that as you Follow Christ I am also benifited by your Love in Christ, but when ever Moses 'BROKE THE PATTERN' which in time would open up a better covenant he Lost then chance to enter the Promised Land with the Children of Israel.

We all must be aware of this, as well, lest we fall by this same example in not entering the Rest of God - on this side of the New Covenant.

Be Make Whole in Christ,
Connie