Israel-Hamas Thread II

[essentialsaltes]

Hamas agrees to latest Gaza ceasefire proposal, source in group says​

Hamas has agreed to the latest proposal from regional mediators for a Gaza ceasefire and hostage release deal with Israel, a source in the Palestinian armed group has told the BBC.

The proposal from Egypt and Qatar is said to be based on a two-stage framework put forward by US envoy Steve Witkoff in June.

It is unclear what Israel's response will be, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office has said it will now only accept a deal if "all the hostages are released in one go".

 

[essentialsaltes]

Ex-Israel military intelligence chief said 50,000 Gaza deaths "necessary"​

The tape recordings, aired by Israel's Channel 12 TV, captured former Maj. Gen. Aharon Haliva saying in Hebrew, "The fact that there are already 50,000 dead in Gaza is necessary and required for future generations."

He went further, saying that for every Israeli killed on Oct. 7, 50 Palestinians should die.

"It doesn't matter if they're children. I'm not speaking out of revenge. I'm talking about a message for future generations. From time to time, they need a Nakba to feel the cost," Haliva said.

 

[Philip_B]

"It doesn't matter if they're children. I'm not speaking out of revenge. I'm talking about a message for future generations. From time to time, they need a Nakba to feel the cost," Haliva said.

A lot is troubling in this. The Jewish people have historically been oppressed and dispersed, and moved from pillar to post across an empire or two. The fact that they have survived such atrocities as Nazi Germany, robust and undeniably a people with a common heritage and faith tradition and a unique sense of humour would leave one thinking they would never want to either have that happen again to them, nor inflict such pain and suffering on any people.

Dead children have no future generations to remember them.

There were some 1200 Israeli lives lost in the October 11 attack, and the estimate is now that 70000 Palestinians have been killed in the fighting since then, which is 10000 more than 50 x 1200.

Perhaps it's time to remember:

Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' Genesis 1:26​

 

[Benaiah468]

(JNS) Following the Israeli Security Cabinet’s decision to prepare for a final, large-scale military takeover of Gaza City, the war against Hamas is entering its most decisive phase. The impending operation, which will reportedly involve an estimated 80,000 soldiers, is aimed at dismantling the last major stronghold of the terror organization, which continues to hold 20 living Israeli hostages and the bodies of 30 additional hostages.

Former senior Israeli defense officials have stated in recent days that this high-stakes offensive is a necessary and long-overdue step to achieve the war’s ultimate objectives. They argued that the success of the mission will hinge not just on military force, but on Israel’s ability to project determination and to strategically separate the civilian population from Hamas’s control, thereby forcing the terror group’s collapse as a regime and power broker in Gaza.

Shalom Arbel, a former senior member of the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) who served extensively in Gaza, told JNS that Hamas, guided by a long-term jihadist Islamist ideology bent on Israel’s destruction at all costs, operates like a ruthless real estate dealer, constantly making a cost-benefit analysis.

“Hamas operates on the basis of its satanic agenda, which is the doctrine of the Muslim Brotherhood,”

said Arbel. This ideology views the Land of Israel as Islamic territory that

“must be returned to Islam. Now that doesn’t mean that this must be within five years or twenty years. This is a long journey from their view, until ‘redemption.’ It’s an eternal journey.”

“Hamas, in my acquaintance with it, conducts a daily situation assessment and calculation of its steps, and looks for the steps that will most bring it closer to this goal,”

Arbel said.

“Its goal is to bleed Israel, exhaust its power socially and nationally and militarily, to cause it economic damage.”

However, if Hamas

“sees that Israel is determined—even if it’s not fully realized, but that Israel is getting close [to seizing all of Gaza]—it will carry out what is called loss minimization and will raise a flag and say, ‘Stop, let’s negotiate.’ It will not want to lose everything,”

Arbel assessed.

Hamas’s perception of Israeli determination is heavily influenced by external factors, the former intelligence officer stated.

“As long as international pressure on Israel is high, Hamas is encouraged and holds on stronger. As long as the internal Israeli scene is bubbling and boiling, of course, Hamas holds on stronger,”

he stated. For nearly two years, Hamas has not believed Israel’s threats to go all the way, allowing it to prolong the conflict.

The key to victory, Arbel argued, is to target Hamas’s greatest strategic vulnerability: its reliance on the Gazan population as a human shield.

“Israel did not smartly, in a certain sense, from the beginning of the war, address the issue of the Gazan population as a separate arena that so deeply affects the campaign,”

he said.

By separating the population from the terrorists, Israel can remove Hamas’s main defense. Arbel raised the scenario that mediators are telling Hamas it should try to secure a release for Palestinian security prisoners and agree to the exile of its leaders in Gaza, and disarmament or face death and lose everything, and if they are told to disarm, Hamas

“Will they accept that? If leverages are applied. They respond only to power,”

he stated.

That too is not an assured outcome, Arbel noted, due to jihadist martyrdom ideology that permeates Hamas.

“Hamas is willing to murder Israeli children, and justifies this that they will grow up to be soldiers. It is willing to see its population killed and homeless, living in tents, scrambling for food. All is justified for the jihad,”

he said, noting Hamas’s belief that the next generation of Palestinians can continue the war.

 

[Benaiah468]

Many media outlets continue to display a striking ignorance of international humanitarian law and the goals of Hamas.

There are civilian casualties in every war that does not consist exclusively of tank battles on battlefields far away from populated areas. This is all the more true in the Gaza Strip, where Hamas's warfare is based largely on using the civilian population as human shields, thereby putting their lives at risk. As some might argue, this never justifies so-called collateral damage.

The provisions of international humanitarian law are perfectly clear on this point: if a warring party uses civilian objects (such as hospitals, schools, and mosques) for its warfare, it makes them legitimate military targets. So if Hamas commits the war crime of barricading itself in a hospital or even holding Israeli hostages there, then that facility loses its protection as a civilian object and can very well be attacked.

Such an attack must follow the principle of proportionality, meaning that the anticipated number of civilian casualties must not be “excessively” disproportionate to the military benefit of the attack, but the military action itself is indeed justified. Responsibility for civilian casualties then lies with those who have endangered civilians through their criminal behavior, in this specific case Hamas.

 

[Benaiah468]

Hardly any news program about the war against Hamas fails to mention the current death toll in the Gaza Strip. Ben Segenreich, an Austrian-Israeli journalist, correspondent, and Middle East expert, rightly speaks of the

"twisted logic of the numbers war, in which whoever has more deaths to show for themselves is in the right."

After the Hamas massacre on Oct 7, Israel had a sad lead in this bizarre competition for some time, as Segenreich points out: over 1,400 brutally murdered, including around 1,100 civilians. But the longer the war continues, the higher the death toll in the Gaza Strip rises: it is now said to be just over 70,000. And the higher the number rises, the greater the pressure on Israel to at least agree to a ceasefire, if not to end the fighting altogether.

There are indeed good reasons to doubt the figures on deaths in the Gaza Strip: the information comes from the "Ministry of Health" in Gaza, i.e., from Hamas, which has a vested interest in this war, which is not least a war for the opinion of the international public, in pillorying Israel with figures that are as dramatic as possible.

No one knows how many of the more than 70,000 deaths were fabricated, such as the 500 victims of an alleged Israeli attack that were invented after a misguided rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad struck a hospital in Gaza. No one can say how many of the thousands of deaths can be directly attributed to rockets fired by Palestinian terrorist groups; estimates suggest that at least ten percent of the more than 8,500 rockets and other projectiles fired at Israel fell back into the Gaza Strip.

No one knows how many of the victims were not civilians but terrorists from Hamas and other groups. In the 2014 war in the Gaza Strip, this was around half of the dead, but the terrorist groups are learning and this time they are apparently not publishing their usual martyr tributes, which would allow their members to be identified among the dead.

No one can say how many civilians died because Hamas and its allies built tunnels, rocket launchers, and ammunition depots under their homes, turning them into legitimate military targets. How many might still be alive if the terrorist groups had not turned them into human shields for their war against Israel? If Hamas had not prevented them from seeking safety, as Israel demands before attacking targets?

All these questions are lost in the mere mention of the number of people killed, not to mention the fact that the crucial question of responsibility for the misery is ignored:

Hamas forced this war on Israel and is exploiting the Palestinian deaths for "cynical number games" (Segenreich) in the media war.

However, it is only successful in doing so because the international public allows itself to be manipulated and, on the basis of obscuring and distorting figures, joins in the complaints about “war crimes” and the alleged "disproportionateness" of Israeli operations. And this is usually done without having the information necessary to make such a judgment in the first place.

However, it is only successful because the international public allows itself to be swayed by this and, based on obscuring and distorting figures, joins in the complaints about "war crimes" and the alleged "disproportionateness" of Israeli operations. And this is usually done without having the information necessary to make such a judgment in the first place.

The fact that civilians are harmed or killed in an attack does not in itself say anything about its legality under the rules of international humanitarian law. Without knowing why a particular target was attacked, who or what was supposed to be hit, and what military benefit the destruction of the target brought from the perspective of those responsible, it is impossible to assess the proportionality of an attack, for example.

Civilian casualties are terrible, but unfortunately unavoidable in urban warfare, where terrorist groups hide behind the civilian population. We should all refuse to play along with Hamas's "cynical numbers game" and not let them off the hook for the misery they have caused in the Gaza Strip.

 

[Benaiah468]

It is obvious that the discussion about Israel's right to exist in the world is becoming increasingly important. Every action taken by the small Jewish island, surrounded by hostile waters, is viewed critically.

At demonstrations, one hears the cry

"From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free!",

which unmistakably calls for genocide. Genocide against all Israelis/Jews (non-Palestinians) living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

It is regrettable that Hamas prioritizes building tunnels and smuggling weapons instead of caring for the welfare of its own citizens. For them, the so-called “death industry” seems to be more profitable than saving human lives.

The world has no idea about G-d's plan of salvation, and Israel's numerous contributions to the world are hardly appreciated. The people of Israel, chosen by G-d as the instrument of his plan of salvation, are regarded as a disruptive factor.

No one will remain unaffected by the events that are coming upon Israel. The mysteries of the times and seasons will remain hidden as long as the nature of Israel is not understood. This is a clear message proclaimed by the Bible itself.

The prophetic writings do not give direct references to the relationships between nations, but rather focus on their connection to Israel—the people and the land. Therefore, through our efforts to understand Israel's destiny, we can essentially see what awaits the whole world. There are countless wars, conflicts, and problems around the world. But what happens in Israel has a direct impact on the entire world.

As a result, Israel is increasingly becoming a burden to all nations, which the world will one day lift away (Zec 12:3).

In the end, all nations will march against Jerusalem before the Messiah returns to the Mount of Olives. Israel will triumph because G-d will stand by His people and fight for them.

 

[Desk trauma]

Israel will triumph because G-d will stand by His people and fight for them.

Ah, we can dispense with all that aid money and military support then?

 

[Skycastle777]

Hamas is the culprit as it attacked Israel during a time of PEACE, and murdered over 1,200 innocent people and kidnaped over 300 more to use as bargaining chips. Hamas is vilely terroristic and evil, and needs to be exterminated from he earth. But a very serious problem is that most Palestinians SUPPORT Hamas and allow members to live in their midst. So Israel will never be safe until the Palestinians are removed and dispersed out into the neighboring Arab nations, and Israel takes over Palestine. That is reasonable and good.

 

[JosephZ]

Hamas is vilely terroristic and evil, and needs to be exterminated from he earth. But a very serious problem is that most Palestinians SUPPORT Hamas and allow members to live in their midst.

Most Palestinians do not support Hamas. According to polls taken in 2024 and 2025, support for Hamas ranges between 24–38%. As for Palestinians allowing Hamas to live in their midst; Palestinians in Gaza live in an environment where turning against Hamas could pose significant risks to their lives. They allow Hamas to operate in Gaza mostly because they are afraid that if they refuse, they will be its next victims. In the past, when people criticized Hamas or tried to organize rebellion against the group, they were often severely injured or even killed for doing so.

 

[essentialsaltes]

'Horror' in Gaza is 'incomprehensible,' says US doctor who treated patients there​

Dr. Aqsa Durrani worked at a field hospital in central Gaza earlier this year.

Durrani was based in central Gaza -- working at a trauma field hospital there -- from Feb. 24 to April 24, witnessing the end of Israel's ceasefire agreement with Hamas and the weekslong blockade on all humanitarian aid.

Field hospitals -- which are tents and semi-permanent structures -- were meant to offload existing hospitals. At the field hospital where Durrani worked, they were only able to provide care to injured or burn patients, she said.

"We could not possibly provide other services with the circumstances that we were in," Durrani said. "We really had to keep it to lifesaving trauma service."

"Now, most of the patients that they're receiving are injured at these supposed aid-distribution sites. They are receiving now more patients with gunshot wounds, including children with gunshot wounds. Each day continues to get worse and we have just been witnessing this genocidal violence now for months and months and it's beyond anything that even our most experienced humanitarian colleagues can imagine," Durrani said.

Food was becoming more scarce toward the end of Durrani's time in Gaza, she said.

"Much of our days were actually spent trying to work with other organizations to see if we could find any food to give anyone. At the end, I was only able to provide patients with one meal per day, and mothers and children were sharing one portion of one meal," she said.

Durrani said she believes the conditions in Gaza are a "deliberate choice" made by Israeli leadership, and called on the U.S. government to withdraw its support for what she called "complete indiscriminate" violence.

 

[Benaiah468]

'Horror' in Gaza is 'incomprehensible,' says US doctor who treated patients there​

The Arabs are now reaping the misery of what they've sowed. Someone should tell that to them.

 

[Benaiah468]

Where do the aid deliveries end up in the Gaza Strip?

Over the past four weeks, more than 90 percent of all aid shipments to the Gaza Strip have been intercepted and stolen.

The United Nations officially denies that significant quantities of aid brought into the Gaza Strip by various organizations (with the exception of the American Gaza Humanitarian Foundation are being stolen by Hamas and other actors. The United Nations consistently rejects Israel's claims that the appropriation of aid shipments would cement the Islamists' rule over the population. But what do the figures say?

Since shipments resumed on May 19 after a several-week hiatus, the UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking website has been providing information on how many deliveries were unloaded at the border in the Gaza Strip and how many were taken over by aid organizations for onward transport, as well as how many arrived at their destination and how many were intercepted and stolen

"either peacefully by starving people or violently by armed actors during transit"

though not all by Hamas.

Let's take a look at the data from the past four weeks:

In the week from July 19 to 25, 430 trucks were taken over at border crossings, of which seventeen reached their designated recipients and 412 were intercepted.

In the week from July 26 to Aug 1, 624 trucks were intercepted; 53 reached their destinations and 571 were intercepted.

In the week from Aug 2 to 8, 577 trucks were intercepted; 59 reached their destinations and 518 were stolen.

In the week from Aug 9 to 15, 267 trucks were seized, 27 reached their destination, and 240 were intercepted.

According to these figures, between 90 and 96 percent of all deliveries were intercepted and stolen in the last four weeks. It is therefore no surprise that, given such figures, there are supply bottlenecks in the coastal enclave on the one hand, while on the other hand, relief supplies are available on the black market at artificially inflated prices.

The ineffectiveness of this system needs no further explanation. Israel is therefore entirely justified in calling for a different system that ensures aid actually reaches those who need it most. This may not yet be the case with the GHF's four distribution centers (especially since Hamas is doing everything it can to cause chaos and death there), but one thing should be clear: the aid organizations responsible for the figures mentioned above cannot seriously claim to be operating a better functioning system.

 

[rjs330]

The Arabs are now reaping the misery of what they've sowed. Someone should tell that to them.

Yes. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

 

[Benaiah468]

The ICJ has not found evidence to support the claim of genocidal intent. It did acknowledge that Palestinians have a plausible right to be protected from genocide and ordered Israel to prevent and punish incitement to genocide. However, the court did not rule that Israel was committing genocide, nor did it order a halt to military operations.

The perpetrator-victim reversal of the ICC.

The chief prosecutor of the ICC turns a massacre of Israeli soldiers into an Israeli “crime” against "Palestinian" civilians.

In a video message in which Khan announced the request for arrest warrants against the two Israeli politicians Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant in May 2024, the ICC chief prosecutor listed a series of alleged crimes against humanity that had been committed

"as part of a widespread and systematic attack on the Palestinian civilian population."

Among Khan's allegations was

"the complete closure of the three border crossings at Rafah, Kerem Shalom, and Erez from Oct 8, 2023, for an extended period of time."

Let's leave aside the first two border crossings mentioned (the one in Rafah was not even under Israeli control until Khan's appearance in May 2024, but under Egyptian control) and focus on the third, the Erez border crossing.

This was indeed closed for a long time, but for a reason that was as simple as it was cruel. The Times of Israel summarized the findings of the Israeli Defense Forces' investigation into the events at the crossing:

On the morning of Oct 7, 2023, some 120 Hamas-led terrorists stormed into the Erez border checkpoint with the Gaza Strip and an adjacent military base in two waves. The troops stationed there were unable to defend the facility, and it quickly fell to the terrorists, who killed nine soldiers and abducted three others... The checkpoint was largely destroyed by the Hamas terror group during its Oct 7 onslaught,...

Journalist Douglas Murray describes the events of that terrible day in his highly readable book On Democracies and Death Cults. Israel, Hamas and the Future of the West as follows:

The border crossing was the place where Gazans with work permits for Israel crossed the border every day. And it was the place where Palestinians crossed the border in search of medical help that they could not get in Gaza. (...)

On the morning of Oct 7, Hamas invaded Israel at about sixty different points along the border. However, the capture of the Erez border crossing was one of their greatest successes.

Videos posted by the Qassam Brigades (of Hamas) on their Telegram channels that day showed that the terrorists had used an explosive device to blow a significant breach in the border crossing. They then overpowered the soldiers stationed there in a firefight. Even weeks later, the buildings at the border crossing were still littered with broken glass and other traces of intense fighting. Many rooms showed signs of explosions on the walls, floors, and ceilings, indicating that hand grenades had been thrown into them. (...)

Most of the Israeli soldiers and civilian security forces on duty that morning were killed in the fighting, while others were arrested on camera and taken to the Gaza Strip.

No wonder that the border crossing remained closed for months after this attack and the devastation it caused.

And what did the ICC's chief prosecutor do?

He made no mention of the deadly attack by Hamas terrorists on the border crossing, but instead declared the resulting temporary closure to be part of a

"systematic attack on the "Palestinian" civilian population"

He thus lied about the massacre committed against Israelis at the Erez crossing on the morning of Oct 7, 2023, calling it an

"Israeli crime against humanity."

This pattern, in which Hamas' crimes are completely ignored, but Israeli responses to them are portrayed as "crimes" against the "Palestinians", this complete reversal of perpetrator and victim, is representative of the way in which Khan, the United Nations, formerly respected human rights organizations such as Amnesty International, and large sections of the media and politics have supported Hamas' war against Israel over the past two years; not with machine guns and rockets, but with their actions in courts, media editorial offices, and Western cabinet tables.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The Arabs are now reaping the misery of what they've sowed. Someone should tell that to them.

That's collective punishment. Also a war crime.

 

[BCP1928]

Well I'm drunk on it.

I love the Jews so much, I wish I was one - I'm a Jew wannabe... If I could wear a skull cap without fear of being a fraud, I'd wear one everyday. Not for religious reasons, but because I know a superior culture when I see one.

What in particular makes it a superior culture?

 

[Benaiah468]

That's collective punishment. Also a war crime.

Collective consequences of combat is not the same thing as collective punishment.

The term collective punishment is a legal term that refers to punishing someone or a group of people for the acts of someone else. It requires an intent to inflict collective suffering on the population because of something that happened to your forces.

To give an example from World War II where Germany would retaliate for the killing of one of its soldiers by the French resistance by killing 50 innocent French civilians.

That is not the situation in Gaza, where Israel has made clear that its military activity is directed against Hamas with the aim of neutralizing the threat posed by Hamas.

Moreover, Israel has undertaken extensive precautions to avoid harm to innocent civilians, including warnings by way of leaflets, text messages, phone calls, and evacuations, as well as creating evacuation corridors, humanitarian zones, and tactical pauses for humanitarian purposes. Over time, Israel has also implemented various measures to increase the amount of humanitarian aid entering Gaza, including opening additional crossings, extending the hours at the crossings, improving the humanitarian routes, and coordinating purchase of additional aid trucks for UN agencies.

Rather than directing your condemnation at Israel, which is fighting a legally justified war of self-defense, you should be censuring Hamas for deliberately endangering Gaza civilians by using them as human shields. Hamas created an interconnected multi-level fortress within densely populated civilian areas in Gaza. Over the preceding 16 years, Hamas had built a vast and sophisticated underground tunnel network, approximately 500 miles, running under all of Gaza. Above ground, Hamas also turned countless civilian structures into battle positions, including homes, mosques, schools, and hospitals from which it planned and carried out attacks, often dressed in civilian clothes.

Throughout this war, Hamas terrorists have routinely operated from civilian areas, including humanitarian zones, UN buildings, hospitals, and mosques. This conduct, in clear violation of international humanitarian law, is the main cause of civilian casualties and destruction of civilian infrastructure in Gaza. By accusing Israel of collective punishment, which is both legally and factually wrong, you give Hamas a free pass for its crimes.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The term collective punishment is a legal term that refers to punishing someone or a group of people for the acts of someone else. It requires an intent to inflict collective suffering on the population because of something that happened to your forces.

That is not the situation in Gaza, where Israel has made clear that its military activity is directed against Hamas with the aim of neutralizing the threat posed by Hamas.

Blockading food and aid is not directed at Hamas.

As you said yourself:

The Arabs are now reaping the misery of what they've sowed. Someone should tell that to them.

You have declared the people of Gaza guilty of 'what they've sowed' and you see their collective misery as just punishment.

 

[Benaiah468]

Blockading food and aid is not directed at Hamas.

The zeal with which Hamas leads its own civilian population to the slaughter is so bizarre that it causes intellectual short-circuits in people around the world. Hamas has massive stockpiles of food. They can choose to feed the hostages if they want to. They were also clearly already starving them.

Under normal circumstances, that is, when one side is not deliberately seeking to sacrifice its own civilian population, the parties to a conflict are obliged to allow humanitarian aid to be provided. However, the relevant passage of the Geneva Convention, which recognizes the need to prevent cynical actors such as Hamas from abusing international law, allows for the withholding of aid supplies if there is a credible risk of diversion and legitimate concerns that the enemy party could derive an obvious military or economic advantage from such deliveries.

There is no shortage of evidence of Hamas looting aid supplies.

You have declared the people of Gaza guilty of 'what they've sowed' and you see their collective misery as just punishment.

This (my statement, not your interpretation) means that human actions have corresponding consequences. Those who sow evil will experience negative consequences, not as punishment but as deed-consequence-nexus (a principle that acts like a law of nature).

We ought to remember that the Arabs themselves overwhelmingly voted the perpetrators of destruction into power.

In 2006, Hamas won the "Palestinian" parliamentary elections by an overwhelming majority, securing 56 percent of the seats in parliament. The ruling party in the "Palestinian" parliament waged a bitter struggle against Fatah, the (seemingly) less ruthless cartel once led by Yasser Arafat. Hamas fighters stormed hospitals, shot doctors, threw Fatah men off rooftops, and executed them in front of their wives and children.

If any lesson can be learned about the Arabs, it’s that the terrorists are just as happy to kill their fellow Arabs as they are those Jews.