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Israel-Hamas Thread II
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truthpls
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So there are far more hostages in Israel being held
https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-conten...713266682.png?w=770&resize=770,770&quality=80
You are saying that Palestine has the right to get them back?
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Valletta
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You're talking about prisoners. There is a historical record of some exchanges, for example, Ahmed Yassin (founder of Hamas) was exchanged for three Israeli prisoners.
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stevevw
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Lets see if what I said is fantasy or fact. The first fact I said
"Israel war has had the lowest causualty rate per enermy deaths by far".
This is fact as stated by Konstantin Kisin. He has not taken sides. He lays out the arguement with first principles of logic and reasoning treating all the acusations against Israel as true and then shows how the charges against Israel that they are indecriminately killing innocents or ethnic cleaning are false.He also goes into the other charges against Israel and does the same. You can't dispute his conclusions as they are sound.
For example the charge that Israel is indescriminately killing innocents is supported by the fact that we can compare their war with other wars and casualty rates. The fact is the average for other wars is around 9 civilians to 1 enermy. The Israel war is 2 civilians to 1 enermy. That means depite Hamas claims that Israel is indescriminately killing Palestinians they have been very careful than most other wars.
This is empiricle fact which can be verified and cannot be disputed.
Why I’m Off the Fence About Israel’s War - Konstantin Kisin
But even if we reject the ratio comparisons we cannot deny the fact that the Israel war is no different to other wars that people have accepted as justified. Especially when you consider the 3 other arguements Kisin rationally defeats about Israels right to defend and no other nation if experiencing the same would just sit their and take the continued threat of someone aiming to destroy you.
He compares this to if Mexicans crossed the US border and and killed the equivelent of 36,000 Americans and taking 1,000s more hostage and said they would repeat the same over and over again. Would the US or any nation just do nothing. I don't think so.
Lets see the other facts I stated.
"Israel wanted the same in 2005 and even helped Gaza with infrastructure after they pulled out in the hope that Gazans would elect a democratic leader or at least one sympathic to freedoms" and "Hamas moved into that void and took over".
The Palestinian Authority was given authority to take over Gaza. But Hamas entered into a war against the PA their own people to take power over Gaza. From that day 1,000's of rockets have been fired into Israel.
These are facts.
Israel's Disengagement from Gaza and North Samaria (2005)
By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed.
In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Many thousands of rockets and mortar shells have been fired from the Gaza Strip onto southern Israeli towns and villages, terrorizing and destabilizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens.
Israel will continue to provide Gaza with water, communication, electricity, and sewage networks.[40]
Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
The next fact I stated
"What people forget is that Hama are not only radicals against Israel. They have also been breaching the Human Rights of their own people". and
"They use their own people as shields and put them in harms way when they could allow them to flee".
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
Hamas forces carried out a brutal campaign of abductions, torture and unlawful killings against Palestinians accused of “collaborating” with Israel and others during Israel’s military offensive against Gaza in July and August 2014, according to a new report by Amnesty International. ‘Strangling...
www.amnesty.org
How does Hamas treat Palestinians.
Hamas diverts international assistance to build its terrorist infrastructure. This impedes economic development and contributes to the humanitarian and environmental crisis in Gaza. The group restricts the rights of women and Christians and treats homosexuality as a crime.
Hamas uses civilians as human shields, hiding terror tunnels, weapons factories, and operations centers under schools and in densely populated civilian areas. The United Nations (UN) has called on Hamas to “cease immediately” these violations of international law.
10 Things to Know About Hamas
What is Hamas? Hamas is an Iranian-backed Palestinian terrorist organization that controls the Gaza Strip. Hamas’ 1988 charter states: “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and...
www.fdd.org
The next statement of fact was
"Israel has always recognised the Palestinians right to exist and it has a history of accommodation" and
"The problem has been some radicals don't recognise Isreals right to exist at all".
Well we know radicals like Hamas have in their own charta that they want to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth and establish a Palestinian State from the river to the sea.
Hamas in Its Own Words
Since its founding in the late 1980s, Hamas has been promoting rhetoric and policies aimed at destroying the Jewish state of Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world.
Hamas in Its Own Words
How can peace be even started if one side has declared no matter what is offered, even if Israel offered 90% of its territory that radicals like Hamas will still not be happy with than until every inch on Isreal is gone.
In 1967 Israel offered all of the land it won in war back in exchange for peace, the response from Arab Nations was to ject that peace. Whereas Israel has a history of giving up land and at one point gave up most of its land to end up with even smaller territory than it has today and still the Palestinian authorities rejected this and responded with war.
Only to have Israel then defend itself and capture even more territory, all of Gaza, the West Bank, Golan Heights, parts of Jordan and Egypt. But even then Israel gave most of it back to allow peace and still the Palestinians rejected this. Thats because no matter what the Israelis offer the truth is the Palestinian radicals don't want Israel to exist at all.
The ironic thing is that pro Palestinian supporters are happy to have Hamas and other radicals like Iran come in and attack Israel and take their land as a matter of right. What hypocrites that they defend the same acts if not worse than Isreal has done as ok and yet when Israel does it its called genocide. Give me a break.
I will let Shapiro explain the facts. The part relating to Isreal compromising its territory for peace is at around the 9 minute mark. In 1947 the UN partition plan gave Israel very little land. A couple of slithers or land around the north and most of the Negev which was useless desert and arid. But Israel accepts the deal and are happy to take less land than they have now to have peace. But still the Arabs attack Isreal because that was not enough. They wanted it all.
In 1948 Israel declares its independence after the UN mandate ends. At around 10.10 minutes in the video you will see that the founding document for Israel's independence it states despite its independence they want the Arabs to stay and make peace.
But of course the Palestinians didn't accept this and began their attack on Israel once again which eventually led to the 1948 war where several Arab nations attacked Israel to wipe it off the face of the earth. This scenario is repeated and repeated and still today Ismalist will not stop the attacks.
Thats leaves my final statements which are self evidence.
So the logical follow on forgetting all the rights and wrongs of the issue is that if these radicals who don't believe and allow Israel to exist were out of the picture or became like the rest of us as decent empathetic humans then the chances of Israel and Gaza living side by side becomes much much greater. Its as simple as that.
For any peace deal to be made regardless of details about territory the radicals have to accept that Israel has a right to exist somewhere, anywhere.
As you are a Christian let me ask. Do you agree the attacks on October the 7th against Israel was a terrorist attack by Hamas. Do you agree Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Do you believe Israel has the right to exist.
What I also find is strange is that even if we went along with the false claim that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing is that of all situations where actual ethnic and religious cleaning is happening the Israel war is but one in among many including those committed by the same ideology as Hamas all over the Arab world where far more people have been killed.
Right now Christians are being killed at near genocidal rates in many muslim nations and yet not a whimper from pro Palestian protestors about these far greater human rights breaches. Why is that.
Persecution of Christians 'coming close to genocide' in Middle East – report
Millions uprooted from homes, says UK-commissioned report, with many jailed and killed
Right now Jews and Christians are being completely eradicated from Islamists states. Isn't that ethnic and religious cleansing. Why are there no Jews or Christians in all the Islamist nations. Why isn't anyone proesting this obvious injustice and show the same level of moral outrage as they do against Israel.
There are 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel and they have the rights to businesses, be doctors, lawyers, serve on the supreme court and be politicians representing the Palestinians. If there was ethnic cleansing this would not be allowed. Its a rediculous claim to equate Israel with Hamas and other radical Islamists.
Frankly its seems very antsemtic singling out and making a big noise about one group of people when others are doing worse and almost been given the green light as being acceptable by the lack of objections and protests against this.
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Lets see if what I said is fantasy or fact.
Isreal war has had the lowest causualty rate per enermy deaths by far.
This is fact as stated by Konstantin Kisin an academic whose qualified opinion is well respected as a neutral commentator. He has not taken sides in the war and resisted commenting up until recently.
He lays out the arguement with first principles of logic and reasoning treating all the acusations against Isreal as true and then shows how the charges against Isreal that they are indecriminately killing innocents or ethnic cleaning are false.He also goes into the other charges against Isreal and does the same. You can't dispute his conclusions as they are sound.
For example the charge that Isreal is indescriminately killing innocents is supported by the fact that we can compare their war with other wars and casualty rates. The fact is the average for other wars is around 9 civilians to 1 enermy. The Isreal war is 2 civilians to 1 enermy. At a ration of 2 to 1 that means around a 1/3 of deaths are actually terrorists.
This is empiracle fact which can be verified and cannot be disputed no matter how much people want to claim the opposite.
Why I’m Off the Fence About Israel’s War - Konstantin Kisin
But even if we reject the ratio comparisons we cannot deny the fact that the Isreal war is no different to other wars that people have accepted as justified. Especially when you consider the 3 other arguements Kisin rationally defeats about Isreals right to defend and no other nation if experiencing the same would just sit their and take the continued threat of someone aiming to destroy you.
He compares this to if Mexicans crossed the US border and and killed the equivelent of 36,000 Americans and taking 1,000s more hostage and said they would repeat the same over and over again. Would the US or any nation just do nothing. I don't think so.
Lets see the other facts I stated.
"Isreal wanted the same in 2005 and even helped Gaza with infrastructure after they pulled out in the hope that Gazans would elect a democratic leader or at least one sympathic to freedoms" and "Hamas moved into that void and took over".
The Palestinian Authority was given authority to take over Gaza. But Hamas entered into a war against the PA their own people to take power over Gaza. From that day 1,000's of rockets have been fired into Isreal.
These are facts.
Israel's Disengagement from Gaza and North Samaria (2005)
By 22 September 2005, Israel's withdrawal from the entire Gaza Strip to the 1967 Green Line, and the eviction of the four settlements in Samaria, was completed.
In June 2007 Hamas took over the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority. Many thousands of rockets and mortar shells have been fired from the Gaza Strip onto southern Israeli towns and villages, terrorizing and destabilizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens.
Israel will continue to provide Gaza with water, communication, electricity, and sewage networks.[40]
Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The next fact I stated
"What people forget is that Hama are not only radicals against Isreal. They have also been breaching the Human Rights of their own people". and
"They use their own people as shields and put them in harms way when they could allow them to flee".
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict
Hamas forces carried out a brutal campaign of abductions, torture and unlawful killings against Palestinians accused of “collaborating” with Israel and others during Israel’s military offensive against Gaza in July and August 2014, according to a new report by Amnesty International. ‘Strangling...
How does Hamas treat Palestinians.
Hamas diverts international assistance to build its terrorist infrastructure. This impedes economic development and contributes to the humanitarian and environmental crisis in Gaza. The group restricts the rights of women and Christians and treats homosexuality as a crime.
Hamas uses civilians as human shields, hiding terror tunnels, weapons factories, and operations centers under schools and in densely populated civilian areas. The United Nations (UN) has called on Hamas to “cease immediately” these violations of international law.
10 Things to Know About Hamas
What is Hamas? Hamas is an Iranian-backed Palestinian terrorist organization that controls the Gaza Strip. Hamas’ 1988 charter states: “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and...
The next statement of fact was
Isreal has always recognised the Palestinians right to exist and it has a history of accommodation and
The problem has been some radicals don't recognise Isreals right to exist at all.
Well we know radicals like Hamas have in their own charta that they want to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth and establish a Palestinian State from the river to the sea.
Hamas in Its Own Words
Since its founding in the late 1980s, Hamas has been promoting rhetoric and policies aimed at destroying the Jewish state of Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world.
Hamas in Its Own Words
www.adl.org
How can peace be even started if one side has declared no matter what is offered, even if Isreal offered 90% of its territory that radicals like Hamas will still not be happy with than until every inch on Isreal is gone.
In 1967 Israel offered all of the land it won in war back in exchange for peace, the response from Arab Nations was to ject that peace. Whereas Isreal has a history of giving up land and at one point gave up most of its land to end up with even smaller territory than it has today and still the Palestinian authorities rejected this and responded with war.
Only to have Isreal then defend itself and capture even more territory, all of Gaza, the West Bank, Golan Heights, parts of Jordan and Egypt. But even then Isreal gave most of it back to allow peace and still the Palestinians rejected this. Thats because no matter what the Isrealis offer the truth is the Palestinian radicals don't want Isreal to exist at all.
The ironic thing is that pro Palestinian supporters are happy to have Hamas and other radicals like Iran come in and attack Isreal and take their land as a matter of right. What hypocrites that they defend the same acts if not worse than Isreal has done as ok and yet when Isreal does it its called genocide. Give me a break.
I will let Shapiro explain the facts. The part relating to Isreal compromising its territory for peace is at around the 9 minute mark. In 1947 the UN partition plan gave Isreal very little land. A couple of slithers or land around the north and most of the Negev which was useless desert and arid. But Isreal accepts the deal and are happy to take less land than they have now to have peace. But still the Arabs attack Isreal because that was not enough. They wanted it all.
In 1948 Isreal declares its independence after the UN mandate ends. At around 10.10 minutes in the video you will see that the founding document for Isreals independence it states despite its independence they want the Arabs to stay and make peace. But of course the Palestinians didn't accept this and began their attack on Isreal which eventually led to the 1948 war where several Arab nations attacked Isreal to wipe it off the face of the earth. THis scenario is repeated and repeated and still today Ismalist will not stop the attacks.
Thats leaves my final statements which are self evidence.
So the logical follow on forgetting all the rights and wrongs of the issue is that if these radicals who don't believe and allow Isreal to exist were out of the picture or became like the rest of us as decent empathetic humans then the chances of Isreal and Gaza living side by side becomes much much greater. Its as simple as that.
For any peace deal to be made regardless of details about territory the radicals have to accept that Isreal has a right to exist somewhere, anywhere.
As you are a Christian let me ask. Do you agree the attacks on October the 7th against Isreal was a terrorist attack by Hamas. Do you agree Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
What I also find is strange is that even if we went with the false claim that Isreal is committing ethnic cleansing is that of all situations where actual ethnic and religious cleaning is happening the Isreali war is but one in among many committed by the same ideology as Hamas all over the Arab world where far more people have been killed. Right now Christians are being killed at genocidal rates in all muslim nations and yet not a whimper from prop Palestian protestors.
Right now Jews and Christians have been completely eradicated from Islamists states. Isn't that ethnic and religious states. Why are there no Jews in all the Islamist nations. Why isn't anyone proesting this obvious injustice and show the same level of moral outrage as they do against the Isrealis.
Its seems very antsemtic singling out and making a big noise about one people when others are doing worse and almost been given the green light as being acceptable by the lack of objections and protests against this. Even Christians own people.
You say you have the facts, you cannot even spell Israel.
Genesis 32:28
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I am aware that I am not a good speller either or writer for that matter.
Your post was so persistent in writing "Isreal"would suggest you do not know what is in a name.
Gabri el
Uri el
Micha el
Rapha el
Isra el
I am not grumpy just something on my mind when I woke up this morning.
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tampasteve
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The absolute best scenario for everyone involved - Jews and Arabs, is to abandon the fantasy of a two state solution - majorities in both "Palestine" and Israel don't support it. The best case is for Israel to openly annex and administer the entirety of the land. The "Palestinians" have shown time and again that they are only going to make it a terrorist state with the goal of killing Jewish people. Annex the land, expel anyone teaching terror or hate, and offer a path to residency for the remaining people. Israel is a democratic and prosperous nation, the rest of the people in the area would prosper under Israeli administration.
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So, your big take away from all he said was he misspelled Israel? I hoping everything he posted, which is factual will.assist in making you reconsider some of your positions.
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truthpls
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Either side could call those taken and detained without reason a prisoner. I guess they could also call it a prisoner exchange. Granted that some of the people in Israeli jails are facing charges. Perhaps (without looking at whether most of the charges were trumped up or not) we could call exchanging those people a prisoner exchange. I don't think that the 3500 or whatever mostly young folks held without charges (and who are being raped etc) anything but hostages.
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essentialsaltes
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Civilian Casualty Ratio
Starting in the 1980s, it has often been claimed that 90 percent of the victims of modern wars are civilians,[1][2][3][4] repeated in academic publications as recently as 2014.[5] These claims, though widely believed and correct regarding some wars, do not hold up as a generalization across the overwhelming majority of wars
Some of the citations can be traced back to a 1991 monograph from Uppsala University[7] which includes refugees and internally displaced persons as casualties.
A wide-ranging study of civilian war deaths from 1700 to 1987 by William Eckhardt states:
If true, this would be higher than the average found by Eckhardt.
No one has access to enough factual information to empirically test the casualty ratio in Gaza.
Various estimates range from 50% (Benjamin Netanyahu) to 80%-90% (Michael Spagat, Adam Gaffney, Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor).
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stevevw
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I also get Micheal instead of Michael wrong a lot. I am also a bit OCD so when you pointed that out I went back and corrected them all lol.
PS, now you've done it. I had to go back and check again and spotted a couple more I missed. Now I will be OCD about missing one and keep checking lol.
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stevevw
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In case anyone has objections to Konstantin Kisins video above I had to include this reply as it is very insightful for those who don't realise the imminent threat not just to Isreal but to the free world. Remember these same Islamists who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth were focued on us a few short years ago.
Then Covid hit restricting their movements. They turned their attention to Isreal and locally. But make no mistake Israel is not all they are after. They state in their own words that the west, Christians, gays, anyone who does not conform to Islam and Allah the only true God will be forever a target until they either submit to Allah, pay jazyah and live under the Islam authroity in humiliation or die.
The Islamist say even if the west stopped bombing and wanted peace they will continue to hate us because their primary reason for hating us will not cease to exist until we embrace Islam.
Come on this is medievil stuff that should have been stopped years ago. Its like two worlds the modern and the ancient clashing. This threat has increased. We should have confronted it years ago. There was never going to be any negociations or reasoning with these radicals. By ignoring the problem its become much bigger and now Isreal are left to deal with it on their own.
PS No, no, no I found some more mispells of Israel. Yep another 2. Well there were only 2 and I got them both wrong lol.
Then Covid hit restricting their movements. They turned their attention to Isreal and locally. But make no mistake Israel is not all they are after. They state in their own words that the west, Christians, gays, anyone who does not conform to Islam and Allah the only true God will be forever a target until they either submit to Allah, pay jazyah and live under the Islam authroity in humiliation or die.
The Islamist say even if the west stopped bombing and wanted peace they will continue to hate us because their primary reason for hating us will not cease to exist until we embrace Islam.
Come on this is medievil stuff that should have been stopped years ago. Its like two worlds the modern and the ancient clashing. This threat has increased. We should have confronted it years ago. There was never going to be any negociations or reasoning with these radicals. By ignoring the problem its become much bigger and now Isreal are left to deal with it on their own.
PS No, no, no I found some more mispells of Israel. Yep another 2. Well there were only 2 and I got them both wrong lol.
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stevevw
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I think Kisin was referring to Middle Eastern conflicts for close comparison. He cited the ISIS war as one example where a lot more civilians were killed compared to combatants.
Nevertheless I am not sure what your point is. That stats are unreliable, that the average ratio is different. That its hard to tell and get like for like data. If thats the case then how can people claim Israel is committing ethnic cleansing when they don't even know the data as to whether Israels war is any better or worse than other wars.
It seems Israel is being held to a much stricter standard than war has gone on before which has not been regarded as ethnic cleansing.
When the US responded to 9/11 it was not ethnic cleansing.
Ironically and more relevant is when Hamas and Hezbollah launched 1,000s or rockets reining down on Israel this has never been protested against or regarded as ethnic cleaning but rather 'a right to defend themselves' by the same critics of Israel.
When it was actually a true act of ethnic cleansing because Hamas and Hezbollah and Irans own declared aim is to destroy Israel. The hypocracy. Its antsemetic.
PS I'm just going back to check I spelt Isreal, in mean Israel correctly. Yep spotted 3. Now look what you have done Robban lol.
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After further review.of that site it appears rhat this conflict still has some of the lowest civilian to fighters rates. Of the majority of modern wars. It's certainly not even remotely a genocide. It's not even one of the worst rates.
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MartyF
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He stated that he took a side in the video you posted. So, you've already posted a complete and utter fantasy.
Ok, Kisin tries a rather lame attempt at an argument from first principles. However, he falls flat on his face in complete failure before he even starts. When arguing from first principles, one needs to question the principles first. He doesn't even try. He calls the Al Aqsa Deluge deluge a terrorist attack which it wasn't.
The right of Palestinians to defends themselves is enshrined in the 1949 Geneva Convention. The Palestinian attack on the military of Israel was a protected right.
Israel does not have the right to protect itself under the Geneva Convention and is required to protect the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank under the Geneva Convention.
Let's look at a famous city battle - Stalingrad - the city was basically razed to the ground by the end of the battle.
High estimates are 70,000, but let's go over the top and round that number to 100,000.
Number of dead on Hitler's side? 150,000 - 250,000 - not counting the ones that died in Captivity.
Number on Stalin's side? They claim 1.1 Million, but lets half that to 500,000.
Hopefully you can do math. Clearly, Hitler and Stalin cared more about avoiding civilian casualties than Israel has. Do you consider Hitler and Stalin to be good people?
So, I do wonder where that made up number for the "average" comes from - probably the same liars which made up the 2:1 ratio - Israel.
So, about the 2:1 ratio. What does a die-hard "DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS!" pro-Israel type think?
Doesn't sound like he even buys that horse manure. But, I'm open minded. Go ahead and give me the list of the names of the 15,000 or so Hamas fighters Israel has killed. Just the names - I won't even ask you to prove that they were Hamas which is what is required under Geneva convention. See, I can give you a list:
Are you able to present a list? Or are your "Empirical Facts" just a fantasy you've copied and pasted from Israel.
You obviously think the Al Aqsa Deluge was justified. Or did you think before posting the above comment.
[quote cut for character length]
Ok, you're reposting fantasies from Israel again.Israel will continue to provide Gaza with water, communication, electricity, and sewage networks.[40]
Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
Israel did not stop occupying Gaza in 2005. Israel turned it into a concentration camp which they fully controlled. Look - another book Zionists won't read: The Biggest Prison on Earth - Ilan Pappe.
Israel controlled what came into the concentration camp and what came out of the concentration camp. Hamas was offered the chance to give up its arms and choose a peaceful political life. Hamas agreed and ran for office. Hamas won. Israel got butt-hurt and proceeded to punish the Palestinians. Hamas and Fatah made peace in 2006 and Israel immediately responded by punishing Fatah. Hamas only took what limited control the prisoners were left with - which wasn't much.
Hamas had no control over who entered or left Gaza, what was allowed into or out of Gaza, cell phone service, electricity, most of the water, or anything. Think of two prisoners in a prison cell and someone points out one prisoner rules over the other - it really doesn't mean anything and it's really silly to have pointed it out.
Every country in the world except Israel considers Israel to have continuously occupied Gaza since 1967.
Now, you starting the name-calling.
Whaaaah! "Hamas is evil!" Whaaaah!
How does this justify murdering thousands of toddlers? For me it doesn't. But I'm curious how do the minute crimes you list - even if true - mean that you and others should murder thousands of toddlers? Just Curious.
I'm not happy with everything every Palestinian has ever done. But I'm also not happy with Police in the U.S. murdering its citizens.
You are arguing that I should start bombing hospitals when a see a policeman there because the policeman is obviously using the hospital as a human shield?
Hamas has repeatedly asked Israel for peace under the 1967 borders.
Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders
Document aims to heal divisions within Palestinian movement and ease peace process but Netanhayu says: ‘Hamas is attempting to fool the world’
Never happened.
Israel waged a war of aggression on Egypt, Jordan and Syria in 1967. This is a well established fact.
Straight up straw man there.
You do know he is a self-professed Son of Satan, right?
He refers to Jesus as a rebel who got killed for his trouble . . . Do you agree with that?
Th UN plan didn't give anyone anything. It was nothing more than a suggestion.
The founding document is filled with tons of lies as befitting such a document. Have you ever bothered to read it?
This says it all:
"WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations."
The founding document is nothing more than propaganda to get U.N. approval for their state. I means nothing in Israel and carries absolutely no legal weight in the state of Israel.
Israel began massacring, raping, and pillaging the Palestinians in 1947 and continued into 1949. The Jordanian King actually colluded with the Israelis to obtain the West Bank. The Egyptian King only participated after he felt his people were going to revolt.
There was no war in 1947-8, there was simply the murder, rape and pillage of Palestinians by the European colonists who later called themselves Israelis.
As a red-blooded American, I know that no government has the right to exist - It's in the Declaration of Independence.
As to living side-by side, the Israelis don't want to live in peace and that is an option they have which Palestinians don't.
As stated before - no. The 1949 Geneva convention gives the Palestinians the right to defend themselves.
Hamas is a resistance organization fighting against Israel. Just like Israel, Hamas has at times resorted to terrorism - especially in the late 80s and early 90s.
As stated before, the Declaration of Independence declares that no government has the right to exist. But I'll go further. My lord and savior Jesus has specifically stated that Israel is Satanic and ruled by Sons of Satan.
John 8:44 NLT
For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.
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Yes. There are other atrocities happening around the world. However, my government is forcing me to pay for the bombs which Israel uses to murder toddlers and continue to oppress Palestinians - including the Palestinian Christians there.
Christians have had a benefit of being more likely to be able to obtain entrance to foreign countries than a Muslim. However, Israel sometimes still finds a way to murder them.
Alex Odeh - Wikipedia
As for why Jews left the Arab countries to go to Israel. Israel forced them to leave. Too many European Jews wanted to go to the U.S. instead of Israel and Israel was trying to force all the countries to send them their Jews even if the countries didn't want them to leave. You know that historian whose books you absolutely refuse to read? Ilan Pappe - he was the child of the parents whom Israel demanded.
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