Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Desk trauma]

It is against the rules but your refusal speaks volumes in any case.

My refusal to watch a video about atrocities I am familiar with speaks volumes of what, exactly?

 

[Valletta]

The attack by Israel on a large population would better fit the genocide word.

Yes and one day we will find out who did it. (as opposed to useful idiots used in the operation)

The babies are not evildoers. Israel needs to arrest the murderers, not force a population to relocate and kill families.

As we know, Israel, in order to save civilian lives, urged them to move some miles to the south. Officials in Florida do the same when there is a large hurricane coming. Israel did this to isolate the terrorists. To stop terrorists from killing more innocents is, of course, the OPPOSITE of genocide.

 

[JosephZ]

When Israel withdrew from Gaza they left green houses all set up to help with food etc and the Palestinians destroyed them.

That's not the real story.

Initially, half of the greenhouses were demolished by Israeli settlers and some of those that remained were looted by Palestinians.

About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer's Israeli pullout from Gaza.

Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain -- creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as "a living business," the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.

Israeli Settlers Demolish Greenhouses and Gaza Jobs (Published 2005)

Israeli settlers in Gaza reportedly have dismantled about half of their greenhouses, giving up waiting for government to announce compensation for leaving them behind to provide jobs for Palestinians; photo; envoy James Wolfensohn presses Israeli officials to resolve issue, as difficult...

www.nytimes.com

A recent spate of looting of greenhouses in the Gaza Strip has caused more than $1 million of damage to a farming project set up to provide jobs for thousands of Palestinians, officials said.

The theft of entire greenhouses and their equipment has put out of action about 70 acres of the roughly 1000 acres left by Jewish settlers as the basis of a Palestinian agriculture industry when Israel withdrew from Gaza last September.

Looters steal Gaza greenhouses

A recent spate of looting of greenhouses in the Gaza Strip has caused more than $1 million of damage to a farming project set up to provide jobs for thousands of Palestinians, officials said.

www.aljazeera.com

Despite the Israeli settlers demolishing half the greenhouses and the Gazans causing a million dollars in damage to the remaining greenhouses, there was reinvestment in the project and a successful harvest.

Less than three months after the Israelis departed, Palestinians have repaired scores of greenhouses left by the settlers and planted a fall crop, and they are preparing to harvest an estimated $20 million worth of strawberries, cherry tomatoes, sweet peppers and herbs and spices. The produce is intended mostly for export to Europe, but some will also be headed to Israel, Arab countries and the United States.

After overcoming numerous obstacles, the Palestinians said their main worry now was the Karni border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel, critical to moving the produce to the markets.

Strawberries, for example, are the Palestinians' most valuable export, but they should be refrigerated until they reach the market. A few hours in the heat and dust at Karni can ruin them.

Gaza Gets Ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise (Published 2005)

Palestinians will begin harvesting estimated $20 million worth of produce grown in greenhouses left behind by settlers in Gaza; most of crop is intended for export, with Palestinians using same Israeli export companies that Gaza settlers used; biggest concern is Karni border crossing between...

www.nytimes.com

As part of an agreement on border crossings brokered last month by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Israel pledged to allow the passage of all agricultural produce from Gaza this season and to raise the flow of export traffic in general to at least 150 trucks by the end of the year, and at least 400 a day by the end of 2006.

Palestinians export first crop from ex-Gush Katif greenhouses | The Jerusalem Post

Basil Jaber: We have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.

www.jpost.com

It was Israel's frequent closing of the border that resulted in the failure of the greenhouses.

In this poverty-stricken place, farmers are being forced to throw away tons and tons of produce that ought to be fetching high prices in the supermarkets of Europe.

The problem is that the Israelis have blocked Gaza's export route.

"We have buyers around the world," says Bassil Jabir, who heads a major, greenhouse-based market garden venture.

"Everyone is interested in buying our produce.

"But we can't get it out of Gaza. On a daily basis we are losing $120,000."

When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza last summer the Palestinians inherited dozens and dozens of vast greenhouses - built in the settlements during decades of occupation.

In a rare gesture of goodwill, wealthy Jewish American philanthropists paid the departing settlers around $14m (£8m) to leave the hothouses standing.

Mr Jabir's firm poured another $20m into the venture, and suddenly Gaza had a potentially rich industry on its hands.

But the border closures and export problems have pushed the whole project to the brink of collapse.

Mr Jabir says the troubles that his high profile project has endured send the worst possible signal for Gaza.

"This is a message to every investor: 'Don't come - there's no hope of any investment flourishing.'"

BBC NEWS | Business | Gaza farmers dumping their crops

 

[truthpls]

As we know, Israel, in order to save civilian lives, urged them to move some miles to the south.

Urged? Ha The fleeing convoys were attacked. Nothing but terrorism

Officials in Florida do the same when there is a large hurricane coming. Israel did this to isolate the terrorists.

Making a demand that whole populations vacate is terrorism not some benign act. Usually troopers in the US don't attack convoys fleeing from a hurricane either. Nor do they blow up all their apartment buildings before the hurricane hits. Nor does shuffling a massive population around a place being bombed 'isolate' anyone.

To stop terrorists from killing more innocents is, of course, the OPPOSITE of genocide.

To claim killing innocents on a massive scale is not terrorism, or to claim that bombing a heavily populated area is not killing innocents is the opposite of truth

 

[rjs330]

recent spate of looting of greenhouses in the Gaza Strip has caused more than $1 million of damage to a farming project set up to provide jobs for thousands of Palestinians, officials said.

The theft of entire greenhouses and their equipment has put out of action about 70 acres of the roughly 1000 acres left by Jewish settlers as the basis of a Palestinian agriculture industry when Israel withdrew from Gaza last September.

So it seems I was correct.

 

[rjs330]

That's not the real story.

Initially, half of the greenhouses were demolished by Israeli settlers and some of those that remained were looted by Palestinians.

About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer's Israeli pullout from Gaza.

Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain -- creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as "a living business," the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.

Israeli Settlers Demolish Greenhouses and Gaza Jobs (Published 2005)

Israeli settlers in Gaza reportedly have dismantled about half of their greenhouses, giving up waiting for government to announce compensation for leaving them behind to provide jobs for Palestinians; photo; envoy James Wolfensohn presses Israeli officials to resolve issue, as difficult...

www.nytimes.com

A recent spate of looting of greenhouses in the Gaza Strip has caused more than $1 million of damage to a farming project set up to provide jobs for thousands of Palestinians, officials said.

The theft of entire greenhouses and their equipment has put out of action about 70 acres of the roughly 1000 acres left by Jewish settlers as the basis of a Palestinian agriculture industry when Israel withdrew from Gaza last September.

Looters steal Gaza greenhouses

A recent spate of looting of greenhouses in the Gaza Strip has caused more than $1 million of damage to a farming project set up to provide jobs for thousands of Palestinians, officials said.

www.aljazeera.com

Despite the Israeli settlers demolishing half the greenhouses and the Gazans causing a million dollars in damage to the remaining greenhouses, there was reinvestment in the project and a successful harvest.

Less than three months after the Israelis departed, Palestinians have repaired scores of greenhouses left by the settlers and planted a fall crop, and they are preparing to harvest an estimated $20 million worth of strawberries, cherry tomatoes, sweet peppers and herbs and spices. The produce is intended mostly for export to Europe, but some will also be headed to Israel, Arab countries and the United States.

After overcoming numerous obstacles, the Palestinians said their main worry now was the Karni border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel, critical to moving the produce to the markets.

Strawberries, for example, are the Palestinians' most valuable export, but they should be refrigerated until they reach the market. A few hours in the heat and dust at Karni can ruin them.

Gaza Gets Ready for a Harvest of Produce and Promise (Published 2005)

Palestinians will begin harvesting estimated $20 million worth of produce grown in greenhouses left behind by settlers in Gaza; most of crop is intended for export, with Palestinians using same Israeli export companies that Gaza settlers used; biggest concern is Karni border crossing between...

www.nytimes.com

As part of an agreement on border crossings brokered last month by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Israel pledged to allow the passage of all agricultural produce from Gaza this season and to raise the flow of export traffic in general to at least 150 trucks by the end of the year, and at least 400 a day by the end of 2006.

Palestinians export first crop from ex-Gush Katif greenhouses | The Jerusalem Post

Basil Jaber: We have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.

www.jpost.com

It was Israel's frequent closing of the border that resulted in the failure of the greenhouses.

In this poverty-stricken place, farmers are being forced to throw away tons and tons of produce that ought to be fetching high prices in the supermarkets of Europe.

The problem is that the Israelis have blocked Gaza's export route.

"We have buyers around the world," says Bassil Jabir, who heads a major, greenhouse-based market garden venture.

"Everyone is interested in buying our produce.

"But we can't get it out of Gaza. On a daily basis we are losing $120,000."

When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza last summer the Palestinians inherited dozens and dozens of vast greenhouses - built in the settlements during decades of occupation.

In a rare gesture of goodwill, wealthy Jewish American philanthropists paid the departing settlers around $14m (£8m) to leave the hothouses standing.

Mr Jabir's firm poured another $20m into the venture, and suddenly Gaza had a potentially rich industry on its hands.

But the border closures and export problems have pushed the whole project to the brink of collapse.

Mr Jabir says the troubles that his high profile project has endured send the worst possible signal for Gaza.

"This is a message to every investor: 'Don't come - there's no hope of any investment flourishing.'"

BBC NEWS | Business | Gaza farmers dumping their crops

I guess they shouldn't have been trying to kill Jews. If they left well enough alone maybe things would have gotten better. But I guess they couldn't halp themselves. They just had to try and murder Jews. I guess they didn't think through the consequences very well.

 

[JosephZ]

So it seems I was correct.

You said "When Israel withdrew from Gaza they left green houses all set up to help with food etc and the Palestinians destroyed them."

That is not a correct statement.

The looting by Palestinians only affected 7% of the greenhouses.

I guess they shouldn't have been trying to kill Jews. If they left well enough alone maybe things would have gotten better. But I guess they couldn't halp themselves. They just had to try and murder Jews. I guess they didn't think through the consequences very well.

It seems you are continuing to equate all Palestinians with Hamas and other terror groups operating in Gaza.

 

[rjs330]

“Do you support Hamas’ glorious mission to free the people of Gaza or do you wish to be a hostage?” is the “choice” people are given.

The vast majority of Gazans do.

 

[rjs330]

Post after post is nothing but people pointing out the horrors of what Hamas has done in some twisted attempt to justify what Israel is doing. It's irrelevant. It's a schoolyard level argument. 'But sir, you can't blame me for breaking the window. Jimmy broke three of them'. Is this what passes for considered discussion these days?

Is this what Is meant by a measured respose? You measure how many innocents you can justify killing by measuring it against how many they killed?

Post after post is trying to tell you and you other arm chair quarterbacks that what Hamas has done means Hamas and all its members and supporters need to answer for their crimes. And BECAUSE Hamas has dictated how this war has to be fought all the fault lies on their heads. They could have r given up, they could have not used human shields. But they chose to fight and use hospitals and schools and living complexes and their war quarters and to launch attacks from. But you know this.

The one side understands this and the other doesn't. They believe that there is some sort of special way you can get rid of Hamas and only lose a few folks. They seem to think that just a bomb here or a bomb there would suffice. Kill a few Hamas and if a few citizens are collateral damage, well that's acceptable and the fight is over. We go back to status quo. Hamas launches rockets and Israel waits for the next October 7.

What exactly IS a measured response when fighting terrorists like this?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Folks choose their news sources - hence the division on this thread.

A war has broken out - it is physical psychological and spiritual.

Hatred, deception, murder, abound.

In the midst of this, be at peace with all men as far as it is possible.

And be careful how you choose your preferred point of view.

 

[JosephZ]

I have a sneaking suspicion they would feel differently if they were the ones in the front lines trying to defeat the evil. They sit in their cozy little arm chairs where the only bullets and rockets they have to face are typed out on a keyboard... Far too many are so protected and naive.

Post after post is trying to tell you and you other arm chair quarterbacks... The one side understands this and the other doesn't.

Since you consider those who have an opposing point of view in this thread to be naive "armchair quarterbacks" who don't understand what and how things need to be done when it comes to fighting Hamas, what makes you so confident that your position on how to respond to and defeat Hamas is correct and that of others is not?

 

[rjs330]

It seems you are continuing to equate all Palestinians with Hamas and other terror groups operating in Gaza.

Palestinians conducted the attack. Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians who are not Hamas helped Hamas. Now tell me which Palestinians are Hamas, which ones are supporters and which ones are helping them? If I gave you a crowd and asked you to pick out Hamas, their supporters or helpers and ones that weren't, could you do it? I mean before they killed you. I do t think you could. Oh if there were kids there you could circle them and say, well they aren't Hamas. Are they Hamas' kids who are being taught to kill you? Are they Hamas supporters kids who are also being taught to sill you? If You knew that there were Hamas there and they were going to kill you and you had a choice, either wait to die or try and kill Hamas before they killed you and you knew in doing so you were going to end up killing some non-Hamas, would you just give up and die?

What if you were the one standing between Hamas and you family and friends and you knew if you didn't they would be coming after your children and you wife to slaughter them and you had the ability to prevent it? Would you just lay down and die? Would you ask that if your son, daughter or wife?

Or would you say you are not going to kill mine so I'm going to take you out and if some others have to die to prevent that from happening then so be it? It's on your head.

Your neighbor keeps killing your children and friends. And then hides behind his children and friends. But you don't know exactly which of them is doing it. Do you allow him to keep doing it?

You know I've used these kinds of analogies before, but none of you have an answer for me. No one ever addresses the issue.

 

[Bradskii]

Hamas launches rockets and Israel waits for the next October 7.

You seem more interested in the battle rather than the war. You think the tactics are justified. Except it's a strategic disaster.

The state of Israel is now more at risk than it's been for very many years. Which, I keep saying, is probably the reason why Hamas did what it did. Can you honestly think of another reason for what they did? Have you actually given it any thought? Killing, raping, burning men women and children - what do you think was the overall plan? To kill a couple of hundered Israelis? You think? That was it?

Give it some thought.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We now see folks being released with massive smiles, and we rejoice with those that rejoice, But - let's not forget the innocents who had life ripped out of them in the most grotesque and animal like ways by psychopathic monsters.

No browny points for Hamas who insist on having their worst criminals released to wage carnage again.

 

[Vanellus]

Folks choose their news sources - hence the division on this thread.

A war has broken out - it is physical psychological and spiritual.

Hatred, deception, murder, abound.

In the midst of this, be at peace with all men as far as it is possible.

And be careful how you choose your preferred point of view.

Shouldn't that be "we" rather than "you"?

 

[Vanellus]

We now see folks being released with massive smiles, and we rejoice with those that rejoice, But - let's not forget the innocents who had life ripped out of them in the most grotesque and animal like ways by psychopathic monsters.

No browny points for Hamas who insist on having their worst criminals released to wage carnage again.

As I've written before it's so much more civilised bombing densely populated urban areas from 20,000 ft resulting in 10X more deaths.

 

[wing2000]

In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war.


As I have stated previously, Israel chose to use these weapons which have resulted in mass civilian deaths, most of whom are women and children. Israel will have to answer for that choice.

Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

“It’s beyond anything that I’ve seen in my career,” said Marc Garlasco, a military adviser for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon. To find a historical comparison for so many large bombs in such a small area, he said, we may “have to go back to Vietnam, or the Second World War.”

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

...
More women and children have been reported killed in Gaza in less than two months than the roughly 7,700 civilians documented as killed by U.S. forces and their international allies in the entire first year of the invasion of Iraq in 2003, according to estimates from Iraq Body Count, an independent British research group.

And the number of women and children reported killed in Gaza since the Israeli campaign began last month has already started to approach the roughly 12,400 civilians documented to have been killed by the United States and its allies in Afghanistan during nearly 20 years of war, according to Neta C. Crawford, co-director of Brown University’s Costs of War Project.

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace (Published 2023)

Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.

www.nytimes.com

 

[civilwarbuff]

If you research what happened to thousands of Muslim women and girls during the Bosnian War, you will find that the atrocities committed against them were equally as sadistic, if not more so, as what Hamas did to some of the victims in Israel. I was going to provide some links to some of the testimonies of survivors and witnesses, but they are too graphic and may violate forum rules.

You can de-link them and simply post the address (with ample warnings of course) so that people may search on their own. That way, they are not viewed here.

 

[civilwarbuff]

“Do you support Hamas’ glorious mission to free the people of Gaza or do you wish to be a hostage?” is the “choice” people are given.

Perfect example of how having terrorists run your govt. never ends well for the population. But I personally don't believe the gazans will learn a thing from this experience. They have tried the same thing time and again and get the same results. It seems like the gaza strip is one big mental institution. Time to lock it up and throw away the key.

 

[Robban]

We now see folks being released with massive smiles, and we rejoice with those that rejoice, But - let's not forget the innocents who had life ripped out of them in the most grotesque and animal like ways by psychopathic monsters.

No browny points for Hamas who insist on having their worst criminals released to wage carnage again.

It is a sign of good will on both sides and those who helped in
negotiating.

David felled the mighty Goliath with one smooth pebble that entered Goliath's visir.
Not unsurprisingly the so called learned had to distract by discussing if Goliath fell backwards or fowards.

,